|
source you're quotes
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2014 02:44
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 04:02 |
|
|
Gazpacho posted:What amazes me is there is an angle nobody talks about. You have a boot system that frankly nobody was really complaining about, yet all of a sudden we are being told, "oh the init is horrible, we MUST have Systemd, no question," followed by voices silenced, threads erased, secret votes. +1, Insightful
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2014 04:01
|
|
|
Gazpacho posted:What amazes me is there is an angle nobody talks about. You have a boot system that frankly nobody was really complaining about, yet all of a sudden we are being told, "oh the init is horrible, we MUST have Systemd, no question," followed by voices silenced, threads erased, secret votes. 
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2014 04:11
|
|
|
Captain Foo posted:source you're quotes Pretty much anyone who has to write a new service is going to groan over the poo poo-fest that is /etc/rc.d. Not even the Linux distributions have a nice well conformed set of scripts.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2014 04:24
|
|
|
Suspicious Dish posted:What graphics chip / driver are you using? apple op
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2014 05:59
|
|
|
Captain Foo posted:source you're quotes
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2014 06:18
|
|
|
Gazpacho posted:What amazes me is there is an angle nobody talks about. You have a boot system that frankly nobody was really complaining about, yet all of a sudden we are being told, "oh the init is horrible, we MUST have Systemd, no question," followed by voices silenced, threads erased, secret votes. lol
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2014 06:22
|
|
|
new jorb uses god's own linux on the desktop, mac oh ess ten only have to use linux on a build server 
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2014 06:38
|
|
|
MrMoo posted:Pretty much anyone who has to write a new service is going to groan over the poo poo-fest that is /etc/rc.d. Not even the Linux distributions have a nice well conformed set of scripts. the hard part of writing a service is daemonizing correctly. there are ten plus steps to do it correctly, and if you miss one you get bad behavior in surprising places, because the UNIX API is poo poo and poorly documented if you think dealing with rc.d is hard, you plainly have no idea what you are doing. that is ok. admit that you don't know what you don't know, and move on with life the sane way to write a new linux service is to use runit or supervisord or monit or whatever the gently caress you want. then you have a canned init script (the one that starts your supervisor) and the supervisor itself will handle all the hairy details of daemonization you write a regular user-mode process, the supervisor handles all the trivia
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2014 19:17
|
|
|
I like the supervisor qmail uses, that is very transparent in operation and clearly reliable but completely different to everything else.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2014 01:16
|
|
|
hasn't qmail been abandonware for like a decade
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2014 01:32
|
|
|
if I write a program that I want to have run as a daemon and be stoppable/restartable, do I still have to write a shell script that spits my pid to a file? is it possible to write a single such script and put it in a single location that will be correct on more than one distribution, or even two versions of a distribution a couple of years apart? we spent longer dicking around with packaging and such for our Linux support than we did getting the USB integration to work, and the people doing it are beyond expert. eventually I just told them to leave a shell script that started it in the foreground, let the barbarians sort it out. MMXIV
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2014 01:37
|
|
|
http://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.service.html Read this and pick a mechanism that suits you.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2014 01:45
|
|
|
Mr Dog posted:http://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.service.html cool, is that deployed widely, say > 75% of Linux desktops? that could make things ok. what directory do I drop the files it? (why doesn't that page say?)
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2014 01:51
|
|
|
click the systemd.unit(5) hyperlink noob
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2014 01:54
|
|
|
Yeah systemd has emerged victorious from a long and bloody war to standardise Linux service management. All of the Linux distros that matter use systemd by default or have committed to doing so very soon. Your packaged software should drop unit files in /usr/lib/systemd/system Read "systemd for system administrators". It kind of begins in the middle for some reason so maybe you'll want to start with article #2 in the series instead of article #1. http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/ (see Documentation section) e: oh, you said desktop distros. Well, Ubuntu has said they're following Debian (which only just cemented its decision to go systemd by default) but it's going to take a while before they put out a release with systemd as the service manager. Longer still if you want to wait for an LTS that uses it. e2: the Arch wiki has a good rapid intro to systemd as well: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Systemd Note that it's not Arch-specific (one of the best things about systemd; it standardises a whole bunch of poo poo across every distro that uses it) Sapozhnik fucked around with this message at 01:59 on Dec 3, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2014 01:55
|
|
|
yeah, my stuff is for linux on the desktop in this the year of linux on the desktop. (what do you do with services that need to be up in order to mount /usr, like network file systems and dhclient and so forth?) I don't care about LTS, these are all Enthusiasts buying ostensibly-developer-kit hardware for now. IDK what all configurations we're going to support, but I hope there are fewer than 3.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2014 02:01
|
|
|
/bin, /lib, /lib64, /sbin are all symlinks to the directories in /usr because everybody finally admitted that mounting /usr separately didn't actually work and nobody ever used it specifically because it hasn't worked for a decade or more but you can make services depend on specific filesystems being mounted and filesystems depend on disks being present or the network being up and it all works one of the motivations for systemd was actually expressing and using these dependencies because the sysvinit method of stalling the boot for 30 seconds or whatever in udevsettle or scsi_wait_scan was idiotic and didn't always work pseudorandom name fucked around with this message at 02:09 on Dec 3, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2014 02:07
|
|
|
Subjunctive posted:yeah, my stuff is for linux on the desktop in this the year of linux on the desktop. (what do you do with services that need to be up in order to mount /usr, like network file systems and dhclient and so forth?) put them in an initramfs, modern Linux doesn't really support splitting / and /usr across different filesystems out of the box because these days it's an ugly solution in search of a nonexistent problem. What problem are you trying to solve by doing this? If you really want to do that with systemd you can, it's just painful and stupid.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2014 02:08
|
|
|
I don't need to be up to mount /usr, I just remember when that was a thing people did. making it unsupported is a very good approach, IMO. wish it had happened in time to save me in a previous life.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2014 02:11
|
|
|
I will say that for some of the display management stuff we do Linux's stack is a lot easier to work with than Windows', holy poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2014 02:12
|
|
|
I'm not sure anybody even uses network filesystems any more these days, at least not on anything Unix, I guess corporate IT uses DFS on Windows here and there. Web browsers completely and utterly killed thin clients and virtualization killed diskless servers if they ever were a thing to begin with. The distinction between things that go in /bin vs /usr/bin and /lib vs /usr/lib is completely arbitrary. Smart distros acknowledged this a few years ago and made /bin a symlink to /usr/bin (ditto /lib, /usr/lib). Beardlord distros that nobody uses probably still have them separate and continue to reject the light of systemd because change is bad even though IT in 2014 is an ever so slightly different animal to IT from 1985. quote:I will say that for some of the display management stuff we do Linux's stack is a lot easier to work with than Windows', holy poo poo. Are you talking about Wayland? because that still isn't quite production-ready yet. If you're actually talking about X11 then holy  that stack is profoundly hosed (for reasons why it took so long to fix it by way of Wayland see: resistance from beardlords, again, who don't know much about post-1985 GUI development but certainly have Opinions about it, pissing and moaning hysterically if you threaten their ability to remotely display Emacs)
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2014 02:17
|
|
|
Mr Dog posted:I'm not sure anybody even uses network filesystems any more these days, at least not on anything Unix, uhhhh lol are you serious
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2014 02:24
|
|
|
i live a sheltered life
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2014 02:34
|
|
|
Mr Dog posted:I'm not sure anybody even uses network filesystems any more these days 
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2014 02:34
|
|
|
Mr Dog posted:If you're actually talking about X11 then holy It's also because nobody is working on Wayland full-time for a variety of fun and unfun reasons.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2014 04:09
|
|
|
Subjunctive posted:I will say that for some of the display management stuff we do Linux's stack is a lot easier to work with than Windows', holy poo poo. logind makes it super cool and useful. Also you're a jerk for only testing your garbage SDK on NVIDIA hardware.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2014 04:09
|
|
|
Mr Dog posted:Your packaged software should drop unit files in /usr/lib/systemd/system does systemd not distinguish between OS, machine, and user units? (launchd uses Library/Launch{Daemons,Agents} directories in /System, /, and ~ to distinguish those cases, just like the rest of OS X.)
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2014 04:12
|
|
|
Mr Dog posted:I'm not sure anybody even uses network filesystems any more these days, at least not on anything Unix, still very used, both in academia (network home directories for labs) and in industry (servers hosting both data and executables at stable paths)
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2014 04:17
|
|
|
This is all documented. Yeah, it does. /usr/lib/systemd/system/blah.service : The version supplied by the package manager /etc/systemd/system/blah.service : A file that an administrator can supply to completely override the packaged unit file /etc/systemd/system/blah.service.d : A directory. The contents of files in this directory are added on to the contents of the packaged unit file. There's also user units, which unprivileged users can run under their own credentials, these live in /usr/lib/systemd/user, /etc/systemd/user, and somewhere under ~/.local/ . Logging in starts up your own private systemd running under your account that can also manage services for you. oh and there's /run directories for all these things as well, mostly used by "generators" which convert various legacy and runtime-probed service definitions into systemd unit files on demand. A lot of thought has gone into systemd's design.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2014 04:17
|
|
|
Suspicious Dish posted:It's also because nobody is working on Wayland full-time for a variety of fun and unfun reasons. what, why not?
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2014 04:18
|
|
|
eschaton posted:what, why not? because no1 gives a poo poo about it
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2014 04:24
|
|
|
Suspicious Dish posted:logind makes it super cool and useful. Also you're a jerk for only testing your garbage SDK on NVIDIA hardware. it's actually just being able to manage multiple screens without insanity. not part of a desktop config, just a display device to which we can get a handle. yes, I'm a jerk, but those are the machines we had and we knew of only one Linux-hosted developer, who also uses NVIDIA, so I pushed it out like the software kidney stone it is. we fixed a bunch of stuff in the upcoming (tomorrow?) release for ATI and Mesa (?!?), but I'm not ready to guarantee support for anything until we see if the scheduler and such will let us sustain 90Hz. also because devoting 8% of my team to 0.04% of our users is math so bad even I can tell.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2014 04:30
|
|
|
Did you fix this piece of NVIDIA insanity? https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=54080 reinterpret_cast<GLXFBConfig>(value)
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2014 04:35
|
|
|
Suspicious Dish posted:Did you fix this piece of NVIDIA insanity? I don't recall, but I don't think we work on the open NVIDIA drivers yet.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2014 04:48
|
|
|
Subjunctive posted:IDK what all configurations we're going to support, but I hope there are fewer than 3. if you support less than 6.02e23 configs, prepare for death threats. the ~artisinal handcrafted pid files forever~ crowd is a little touchy right now.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2014 05:10
|
|
|
BobHoward posted:if you support less than 6.02e23 configs, prepare for death threats. the ~artisinal handcrafted pid files forever~ crowd is a little touchy right now. my plan is to require systemd, Wayland, and root on btrfs.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2014 05:12
|
|
|
eschaton posted:does systemd not distinguish between OS, machine, and user units? i wish it was possible for apple to reorganize absolutely every trad. unix directory under / (bin, dev, usr, sbin, etc) into /System without breaking needless assumptions built into a lot of unix software
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2014 05:25
|
|
|
then it wouldnt meet the posix spec you dumb bastard
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2014 05:27
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 04:02 |
|
|
Mr Dog posted:I'm not sure anybody even uses network filesystems any more these days 
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2014 05:30
|
|
