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The other problem with grounding to water pipe is that you are assuming your city hasn't changed their pipes to plastic, and that they never will. Not necessarily a safe bet.
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Dec 2, 2014 07:45
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Nitrox posted:I ditched all my iron and copper plumbing in favor of a manifold setup and it took about 30 minutes to properly ground the electrical panel. Don't sweat it. 2 rods in the ground 6' apart is all you need in 200A residential. hahahaha noooo, no man, I'd have to find every place in the attic, walls, and crawl space where someone has grounded an individual outlet by running copper wire to the nearest cold water pipe. If it were just at the mains I wouldn't even mention it. PopeCrunch posted:The other problem with grounding to water pipe is that you are assuming your city hasn't changed their pipes to plastic, and that they never will. Not necessarily a safe bet. What? No, the copper pipe in my house runs into the actual ground. It's grounded because it's literally grounded, it makes no difference what the city is doing. I think this is by far the normal setup.
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Dec 2, 2014 07:57
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Cousin of mine ran into all kinds of hell electricitywise when the city replaced the pipes up to about 3 or 4 feet from his house with plastic - turned out the water pipe was the only ground. Whoops.
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Dec 2, 2014 12:04
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Leperflesh posted:hahahaha noooo, no man, I'd have to find every place in the attic, walls, and crawl space where someone has grounded an individual outlet by running copper wire to the nearest cold water pipe. If it were just at the mains I wouldn't even mention it. Why not just leave the copper in place, empty, when you redo the supply lines? It'll still work as a ground.
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Dec 2, 2014 15:09
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Leperflesh posted:hahahaha noooo, no man, I'd have to find every place in the attic, walls, and crawl space where someone has grounded an individual outlet by running copper wire to the nearest cold water pipe. If it were just at the mains I wouldn't even mention it. I found one of these when I remodeled my bathroom. One problem... we have a well. The copper pipes don't reach the ground.
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Dec 2, 2014 15:30
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Leperflesh posted:On the other hand copper pipe is a conductor, which is great if you want to ground stuff to it. No longer allowed by code, so this doesn't matter for any kind of new construction. Or really anything built or rewired since the 80s. PainterofCrap posted:PEX (may it truly hold up over time; polybutylene was a disaster) does offer two distinct advantages: it's flexible, so you can sneak it through and around areas that would require tear-out otherwise; and it requires no heat to install. My neighbor is sorta beta-testing it in his unheated garage...it seems to resist bursting when frozen. I haven't burst it yet and I froze the above ground portion of my radiant loop last year something fierce a couple of times while I was away (it's in an unheated portion of the garage and the temperature unexpectedly plummeted low enough and the heated space is insulated well so it didn't run frequently enough to prevent this). In fact, the "fuse" ended up being the Taco pump. Fortunately I was able to bend the plate flat again and reinstall the pump with a new gasket and all has been well. The other big advantage which is really just an after effect of flexibility, ease of installation and cost is that a lot of PEX systems are being installed as "home runs" to each faucet. When done with a proper manifold this creates a really good water balance (your shower won't lose pressure when someone turns on a kitchen sink, etc).
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Dec 2, 2014 17:26
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Using PEX also means not having to worry about someone breaking into your house to steal your plumbing.
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Dec 2, 2014 17:38
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Splizwarf posted:Why not just leave the copper in place, empty, when you redo the supply lines? It'll still work as a ground. I have no actual plans to replace my water system at all, and I do have actual plans for significant re-wiring, so it's not actually important. But I was interested in this Pex stuff just out of general curiosity. Gounads posted:I found one of these when I remodeled my bathroom. Don't the pipes go into the ground in order to get water from the well? If not, you should probably ground your water pipes. Just on general principle, because if you found one of these behind a wall, there's a good chance there's more somewhere.
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Dec 2, 2014 17:45
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Leperflesh posted:Don't the pipes go into the ground in order to get water from the well? After the pressure tank, and with plastic well line (typically). If the plumbing is done properly it was bonded to the panel ground just before the pressure tank.
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Dec 2, 2014 18:04
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Motronic posted:"home runs" to each faucet. That means having to wait for hot water at my sink, shower, and improperly plumbed toilet.
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Dec 2, 2014 18:28
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It will probably be a significantly shorter wait for any single one of them, though.
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Dec 2, 2014 18:38
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Zhentar posted:It will probably be a significantly shorter wait for any single one of them, though. Apparently, this is even more true than I realized. I had assumed it would be the case just from pipe diameter (a 3/8" supply line contains about half as much cold water to push out as a 1/2" line of the same length), and possibly shorter runs, since they are more direct. But it turns out there's more than just that. Around 0.5gpm or less (a likely flow rate for a bathroom faucet), you get a relatively significant amount of stratification between hot and cold water in 1/2" or larger pipes, which causes a period of lukewarm water where you're getting a mix of both hot and cold water. At 3/8", this won't occur above 0.25gpm, so you'll clear the cold water out of a 3/8" supply line more than twice as fast as a 1/2" line. (Side note - the flow needed to avoid this is lower with warmer temperatures - a good reason to insulate your 3/4" lines). But it turns out there's even more to it than that! Even at the same supply line diameter, PEX has an advantage over copper. The smooth walls (with lower surface adhesion than copper) combined with gradual turns and few fittings causes significantly less turbulence in the flow. This not only reduces mixing of the cold and hot water (making the water standing in a pipe behave much more like a simple "plug" of cold water that needs to be pushed out), but also reduces the heat lost to conductive heat transfer (the pipe itself, and the things it touches). Fake edit: I'd always figured I'd end up using PEX if I need to do any plumbing just to avoid learning to solder copper pipes (my experience as a teen working with my dad at our cabin was not particularly positive), but now I've sold myself on re-plumbing my kitchen hot water supply with 3/8" PEX.
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Dec 2, 2014 20:38
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Motronic posted:No longer allowed by code, so this doesn't matter for any kind of new construction. Or really anything built or rewired since the 80s. I thought you could still ground to metal pipes, but only within 6 feet of the service entrance? Or did that change in the 2014 book?
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Dec 2, 2014 21:19
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kid sinister posted:I thought you could still ground to metal pipes, but only within 6 feet of the service entrance? Or did that change in the 2014 book? I'm specifically referring to using the pipes as a ground conductor for outlets. I'm not sure if it's still acceptable to use a water pipe (had to have a minimum 10 foot run in the soil) or not as your ONLY ground, but they really should be bonded with the electrical ground anyway (along with metal gas lines) under the "likely to become energized" requirement in nearly any home since it's really easy to make that happen (metal sinks and garbage disposals, electrically powered water heating equipment that may also be gas fed, etc).
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Dec 2, 2014 21:29
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Motronic posted:I'm specifically referring to using the pipes as a ground conductor for outlets. As the only ground? No, you must have at least 2 grounding methods regardless of type. And actually, you could make an argument to allow for grounding outlets directly to pipes, but only if both that wire AND the panel are clamped to the pipe within that 6 feet of the entrance. Good luck finding an inspector to sign off on that though.
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Dec 2, 2014 21:45
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kid sinister posted:And actually, you could make an argument to allow for grounding outlets directly to pipes, but only if both that wire AND the panel are clamped to the pipe within that 6 feet of the entrance. Good luck finding an inspector to sign off on that though. lol. That's doing things the hard way just to make the inspector's head asplode. I like it.
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Dec 2, 2014 21:50
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Leperflesh posted:Don't the pipes go into the ground in order to get water from the well? If not, you should probably ground your water pipes. Just on general principle, because if you found one of these behind a wall, there's a good chance there's more somewhere. Bathroom -> Copper Pipe -> Pressure Tank -> Copper Pipe -> Well Pump In Basement (Jet Pump Style) -> Plastic/Rubber Pipe -> Into the ground The pump is properly grounded to the electrical ground.. so.. um.. it's sorta grounded.. through the pump? Motronic posted:If the plumbing is done properly it was bonded to the panel ground just before the pressure tank. That would be a good idea...
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Dec 2, 2014 21:55
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Parallel Paraplegic posted:Oh that makes more sense Well, there is the "do not open" door.  I also work in remodeling grocery stores (retail merchandiser -- moving product around on the shelves -- rather than construction) and have seen all the stuff mentioned and more. You know you've been in the grocery business too long when you can tell which chain built a store and sometimes even in-between owners by the architecture. Jewel-Osco, for example, had separate offices in the backroom, usually in the upstairs (see below), for the pharmacy side. The grocery-store office upstairs that my mom worked in 20 years ago is still in use, but the Osco office on the other side of the compressor room, between it and the upstairs storage, is abandoned in place, with signs on the doors saying something along the lines of "being in here without a manager escorting you gets you fired on the spot." I can only assume that's because they caught a couple of teenaged cashiers loving in there on their lunch break once. The door for loading the equipment into the compressor room sometimes even has a I-beam with a block and tackle on it (I forget the word) sticking out above it to lift the things. As for why it's on the second floor, noise isolation probably has something to do with it, and leaving more floor space below for backroom storage. Speaking of which, Albertsons (or somebody they bought out, or both) generally had two-story backrooms back in the day, which is what some texas redneck is talking about -- it never was finished out, it was just more warehouse space, and a gnarly slanted conveyor belt that would make modern OSHA types poo poo a brick to move cases up/down (and yes, I've ridden on it rather than taking the stairs more than once). Nowadays with better just-in-time delivery they only use the ground floor for normal operations, and the upstairs is mostly abandoned, maybe used for storing extra shelves and the Christmas decorations.
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Dec 3, 2014 02:19
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Bad Angus! Bad!
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MH Knights posted:Using PEX also means not having to worry about someone breaking into your house to steal your plumbing. Oh, they'll still break in, and probably smash it anyway when they discover you don't have any sweet, sweet copper.
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Dec 3, 2014 16:14
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Liquid Communism posted:Oh, they'll still break in, and probably smash it anyway when they discover you don't have any sweet, sweet copper. That's why every year on Copperthief Eve, we take all the year's copper scraps (wire clippings, old fittings, worn out pennies) and put them in the St. Copperthief box on top of the gas meter.
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Dec 3, 2014 16:18
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Skip the middle man and just leave a bundle of H in there next time.
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Dec 3, 2014 23:22
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My detached garage, which has about 16 outlets, a wire going to the shed behind it, the garage door opener, and currently my septic pump, appears to be attached to a single 20A breaker in the house.
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Dec 3, 2014 23:39
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ijustam posted:My detached garage, which has about 16 outlets, a wire going to the shed behind it, the garage door opener, and currently my septic pump, appears to be attached to a single 20A breaker in the house. What's up single-circuit-garage buddy! We've got three openers and a dozen outlets, which includes a full size fridge and upright freezer, on one 20A circuit. Hope you didn't want to do any welding! Or anything requiring more than a couple amps, really. This is new construction, less than 15 years old, which also includes a completely unsealed garage floor and exposed block foundation due to grade. In Minnesota. Saltwater does amazing things along with freeze-thaw cycles.
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Dec 4, 2014 00:36
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My garage has the excuse of being built in the 70s and being done veyr piss-poor. None (literally none) of the outlets or switches are flush with the wall and it doesn't even have gutters 
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Dec 4, 2014 00:53
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That reminds me, I'm going to want to add replace my circuit breaker panel with one with more capacity at some point. How big of a job is this, and is it "hire a licensed electrician you idiot" level, or "do some reading and learn the safety measures and you can do it yourself" level?
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Dec 4, 2014 01:31
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:That reminds me, I'm going to want to add replace my circuit breaker panel with one with more capacity at some point. How big of a job is this, and is it "hire a licensed electrician you idiot" level, or "do some reading and learn the safety measures and you can do it yourself" level? Show up in the "don't burn your house down" thread, but it is possible for a random person with little training to completely rewire a residential household safely by themselves. You must have the power company remove your meter, but you can do every other part yourself.
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Dec 4, 2014 01:52
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The other thing to keep in mind is that it depends entirely on where you live. For instance, Fitchburg MA? You can't do any wiring yourself, technically not even replacing outlets, it requires a licensed electrician. Worcester MA, 25 miles away? Do whatever the gently caress you want, just get a permit, have the meter pulled, and have it inspected afterwards.
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Dec 4, 2014 03:54
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xpost from idiots on social media
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Dec 4, 2014 03:59
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Hahaha, there is literally no way that shelf is not crooked. Maybe 80" to the top on the left, and 80" to the bottom of the brace on the right.
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Dec 4, 2014 04:06
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Bad Munki posted:Hahaha, there is literally no way that shelf is not crooked. Maybe 80" to the top on the left, and 80" to the bottom of the brace on the right. I dunno, I could see this being one of those rooms with completely screwy dimensions that create a perspective illusion, and the shelf is breaking the illusion. Of course that'd mean that the room is like 30' long and the back wall is about 12' high
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Dec 4, 2014 04:11
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And would also require a very non-level ceiling and floor and a rather acute angle between the walls in the one corner.
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Dec 4, 2014 04:13
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It's that room from Willy Wonka.
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Dec 4, 2014 04:25
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Bad Munki posted:And would also require a very non-level ceiling and floor and a rather acute angle between the walls in the one corner. I think that's actually close to right. look at the zig zag pattern. It's perfectly level with the floor and shelf but way off on the ceiling. The ceiling slopes heavily down from the left to right of that picture. The light probably also messes with perspective a bit.
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Dec 4, 2014 14:04
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Leviathan Song posted:I think that's actually close to right. look at the zig zag pattern. It's perfectly level with the floor and shelf but way off on the ceiling. The ceiling slopes heavily down from the left to right of that picture. The light probably also messes with perspective a bit. Naw, I still don't buy it. In order to get that much of an angle difference from wonky perspective, they'd have to be very close to the right end and looking at a steep upward angle. Also, check out the angle of the brackets relative to the shelf. All the brackets in the middle are at a right angle to the shelf, and the brackets at each end are suddenly not at a right angle to the shelf, but are parallel to the wall. Although I'll accept that that may just be a trick of the lighting. I'm pretty convinced that if--and I do mean IF--they actually measured something to 80", it was to the top of the brace on the left and the bottom of the brace on the right. I'll believe that the ceiling is sloped, I can see that, but in order to make that shelf level, there's a lot more wonky angling that'd have to be going on there (including the back wall being steeply angled away from the camera as it goes from right to left, and possibly a sloped floor as well.) Bad Munki fucked around with this message at 15:10 on Dec 4, 2014 |
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Dec 4, 2014 15:08
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I'd say its one of the 'hauled in two halves' trailer homes that usually have apparent roof slope in the interior.
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Dec 4, 2014 15:08
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I made the shelf straight.
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Dec 4, 2014 15:25
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I'm pretty sure they're a chucklefuck and measured to the top of the bracket on one side and the bottom on the other like Bad Munki said. Looks about right.
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Dec 4, 2014 15:28
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This is why everyone should just own a level, it's almost impossible to gently caress up even if you are someone who can't work out how to measure anything.
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Dec 4, 2014 15:36
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Antifreeze Head posted:I made the shelf straight. 
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Dec 4, 2014 15:59
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Huh. e: oh wait now I see it 
Bad Munki fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Dec 4, 2014 |
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Dec 4, 2014 16:01
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