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Casimir Radon posted:Some people would like a more progressive world and that's not going to happen with dumbfucks like you trying to dominate every issue with nonsense. Pretend I posted the picture of you with the whips. I was specifically talking about the people you imagine me to be, but you morons aren't interested in actually talking about stuff but rather trying to bag on me. You can't even get that I made the joke before you did, in your rush. 
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Dec 5, 2014 22:22
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I have to admit I have been conflicted about the best way to approach one recent web-based attempt at activism. In the wake of the Garner and Brown grand jury decisions, the twitter hashtag #CrimingWhileWhite has been trending. In the hashtag, white people describe committing small crimes and being let off easy by police in order to highlight the difference in treatment that they receive versus what black people discriminate. However, the general consensus is that this hashtag is counterproductive.Kara Brown posted:Who is this helping? How is this helping? These are questions that all allies should be asking themselves. Because really, what are black people supposed to do with these stories? They don't really make us feel better. They don't embolden us with knowledge or tactics that we can use to fight the system. And they simply confirm what we already know: white privilege is loving amazing. I live in Texas. I know some dyed in the wool conservatives or "moderates" or "libertarians" in the flesh. People who do not have any minorities in their social circle. People are discussing the #CrimingWhileWhite hashtag in their mostly white social media networks. Kara Brown writes "Who is this helping? How is this helping? These are questions that all allies should be asking themselves." Presumably the people using the hashtag are outraged by the recent decisions and are trying to help the black community by trying to show their mostly white social circles the discrepancies that exist. I know people who have never heard of privilege theory and probably wouldn't get it or accept it, but they can understand what is illustrated by #CrimingWhileWhite. At the same time, many voices are speaking out, saying this is not helpful and is taking the focus away from where it belongs, once again making white people the stars of the show. I see what they are saying and I agree that in the activism milleau it is a distraction from what's important. But I also think that it's going to send the message somewhere where it wouldn't ordinarily have gone. So now I see that there's activism for activists and activism for people who don't realize it's activism. Surely there's a way to make the two be friends.
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Dec 5, 2014 22:25
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Space Whale posted:So when I ask "OK, so what am I going to actually 'lose'?" and the answer is "the privilege to not care, or the privilege a cop has to not kill someone," I wonder if they're just having clumsiness from being really far up their rear end with their vocabulary. quote:I'm trying to figure out if it's vague so that it's what they want it to be to use it as a bludgeon, or if it's just because it's kids on the internet. What the gently caress is vague about "cops are able to murder people and get away with it, and I don't think they should be able to but they know they have that special right and they're not going to just give it up for nothing"? The fact that I'm calling it a privilege? It's something they have that others don't, with victims of that benefit on the other side, that no one should be able to do. quote:Every loving act a human with agency can take is apparently a privilege to these people, such as the privilege to take a walk, or pee standing up, or breathe through my nose. My whole loving point to begin with was that "identifying privilege" was almost worthless, because people are already aware. Slaveholders knew exactly what privileges they had and were not going to just give them up. So what the hell are you talking about? Are you just talking at me while pretending that I'm making some other argument? GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Dec 5, 2014 |
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Dec 5, 2014 22:33
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Xibanya posted:I have to admit I have been conflicted about the best way to approach one recent web-based attempt at activism. In the wake of the Garner and Brown grand jury decisions, the twitter hashtag #CrimingWhileWhite has been trending. In the hashtag, white people describe committing small crimes and being let off easy by police in order to highlight the difference in treatment that they receive versus what black people discriminate. However, the general consensus is that this hashtag is counterproductive. It sorta sounds like the Ice Bucket Challenge or Movember. It's a form of slacktivism where you're superficially doing something for a good "cause" but mostly you're getting the opportunity to talk about yourself or share info about your banal adventures on social media. GlyphGryph posted:That's not the privilege the cops have. The privilege is being able to kill someone and get away with it. There is no "privilege" not to kill someone. And the "privilege not to care" isn't much of a privilege when not paired with the "because they are not a target" bit. That's the bit that makes it a privilege. A more accessible example for most folks might be workplace rules on sexual harassment that limit your ability to tell jokes or flirt with coworkers because those actions, while seemingly harmless from one perspective, can actually create a really alienating and hostile work environment for others. Now whether or not we add anything to the discussion by labelling this "privilege" rather than just saying "don't sexual harass people" or "think before you speak and make sure you aren't carelessly making people uncomfortable" is an open question, as far as I'm concerned, but basically that seems to be the kind of stuff that privilege relates to. Another example might be "if you're a white middle class activist then before you start throwing rocks at the cops or breaking windows, pause a moment and consider that while you're relatively protected from the consequences of your actions, the black guy standing next to you is not." Or, in the context of feminism, maybe think about the fact that while you as a white middle class woman might think that the biggest issue of the day is pay inequality in white collar jobs, some of your colleagues might feel that lack of access to affordable childcare or long hours working a minimum wage job is actually a bigger problem. So don't assume that just because you are a woman that you can therefore speak for all women with consulting them first." I feel like when you state the whole 'privilege' issue in that way it seems a lot less contentious, or at least it should. Yes, people can abuse these ideas, but that doesn't mean they have no basis in reality.
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Dec 5, 2014 22:47
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Helsing posted:It sorta sounds like the Ice Bucket Challenge or Movember. It's a form of slacktivism where you're superficially doing something for a good "cause" but mostly you're getting the opportunity to talk about yourself or share info about your banal adventures on social media. I agree that slacktivism is bad if the participant would have done something actually meaningful/helpful but won't because they feel they have already done something, but if someone would otherwise not be discussing the issue at hand at all and now at least they are giving it some thought, that does have some value.
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Dec 5, 2014 23:00
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Whenever I hear of the crap idiot slacktivists are doing, I always think of this song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-O7FowQssk Interestingly enough, it was released in 1980, right around the time when American leftism started degenerating towards its current meaningless state. Slobjob Zizek fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Dec 5, 2014 |
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Dec 5, 2014 23:04
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Zeitgueist posted:I was specifically talking about the people you imagine me to be, but you morons aren't interested in actually talking about stuff but rather trying to bag on me.  This is the latest example of your bad habit, borne of reflexive defensiveness, of pretending that you're actually just misunderstood because you're so brilliant no one can follow your posting. I doubt this is the case, and you should too if it consistently and continually happens to you.Why are you taking Jezebel seriously? They're slightly less worse than xojane at least. Xibanya posted:I agree that slacktivism is bad if the participant would have done something actually meaningful/helpful but won't because they feel they have already done something, This is at best an infrequent occurrence.
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Dec 5, 2014 23:10
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post more about it because this is a serious debate and all facts are needed
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Dec 5, 2014 23:13
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Brannock posted:This is at best an infrequent occurrence. Sorry, what is? the "them feeling they have done something"?
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Dec 5, 2014 23:13
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Brannock posted:
No, it's really that you personally are stupid, and blinded by your dislike of me. Me posting in a SJ thread is basically ringing the Brannock Come Post alarm, and it's sad. Get a life. My posting is, at best, common sense middle of the road leftism. I don't dominate conversations that I'm aware of(if I am, somebody that isn't e-stalking me speak up), and do my best to shut up and listen in mixed groups, especially in person. I don't think I'm making cutting edge insights or that I'm a better leftist than everybody, or even most. I say my piece, and try to point out when people are being lovely. Listen, I know you don't like me. Either ignore me or post poo poo that disagrees with me instead of your highschool personal drama bullshit.
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Dec 5, 2014 23:14
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Nonsense posted:Sorry, what is? the "them feeling they have done something"? I wasn't clear, I meant that it's very rare that slacktivists would have actually done something if not for their slacktivism. I don't know a single person who would have gone out to do something meaningful that didn't because of slacktivism. Zeitgueist posted:No, it's really that you personally are stupid, and blinded by your dislike of me. Me posting in a SJ thread is basically ringing the Brannock Come Post alarm, and it's sad. Get a life. Now you're accusing me of stalking? I've posted at you like four times total. Five now I suppose.
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Dec 5, 2014 23:17
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Brannock posted:Now you're accusing me of stalking? I've posted at you like four times total. Five now I suppose. I'm assuming your an SS poster and you're doing it often enough that I can remember you  Most of the times it's a random stream of people I've never seen post before or after.
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Dec 5, 2014 23:24
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Zeitgueist posted:I'm assuming your an SS poster and you're doing it often enough that I can remember you Thats kind of a weird assumption to make dude. Sometimes people you've never seen post aren't members of a cabal of evil doxxing Republicans and just disagree with you maybe.
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Dec 5, 2014 23:41
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WORST FORUMS GUY posted:Someone should put you out of your misery Just to let the rest of the thread know: this person also PMed me to call me a human being. Do women usually get called faggots? I dunno
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Dec 5, 2014 23:49
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I am of the opinion that was a really very insightful article that would help many people to actually pursue improvements to society instead of figuratively blowing off their own goddamn feet while screaming hyperbole. Because that really isn't going to help anyone. In fact, it rallies people against you.
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Dec 5, 2014 23:50
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The Snark posted:I am of the opinion that was a really very insightful article that would help many people to actually pursue improvements to society instead of figuratively blowing off their own goddamn feet while screaming hyperbole. I'm glad it helped you.
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Dec 5, 2014 23:55
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Widestancer posted:Thats kind of a weird assumption to make dude. Sometimes people you've never seen post aren't members of a cabal of evil doxxing Republicans and just disagree with you maybe. That's kind of a wierd interpetation to make because I wasn't talking about people who disagree with me, I was talking about people who make very similar comments about me personally and my personal life. I don't give a poo poo if people disagree with me, I'll just argue with them.
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Dec 5, 2014 23:59
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UP AND ADAM posted:I'm glad it helped you. You're assumption is incorrect, but if I'd needed that sort of help I'd have liked to think it would have. Unfortunately, as several here seem to have illustrated, some will read this- or not actually bother and say they have perhaps- and assume it's some clever ruse of the racist patriarchy trying to keep them from reaching that mythical level of miserable and crazed that will somehow make the world better.
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Dec 6, 2014 00:10
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Oh is Jezebel on the enemies list now?
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Dec 6, 2014 00:28
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SedanChair posted:Oh is Jezebel on the enemies list now? Generally anything on the Gawker network is trash.
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Dec 6, 2014 00:34
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SedanChair posted:Oh is Jezebel on the enemies list now? You're defending Gawker gossip blogs now?
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Dec 6, 2014 00:36
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Ernie Muppari posted:post more about it because this is a serious debate and all facts are needed Your entire post history in this thread is a bunch of dumb loving one liners
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Dec 6, 2014 00:42
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GlyphGryph posted:You're defending Gawker gossip blogs now? They've had some good pieces.
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Dec 6, 2014 00:46
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GlyphGryph posted:What the gently caress is vague about "cops are able to murder people and get away with it, and I don't think they should be able to but they know they have that special right and they're not going to just give it up for nothing"? The fact that I'm calling it a privilege? It's something they have that others don't, with victims of that benefit on the other side, that no one should be able to do. No. What acts or ability to perform an act with agency is and is not a privilege? Is the "privilege" that one group can do one that another cannot? That makes privileged acts basically everything! Peeing standing up is a privilege. Nose breathing is a privilege. These are, however, pointless privileges. So which ones actually count? And why do we need to play lingo-generator to say "it's wrong that cops can kill and get away with it" with "privilege" instead of "yo, stop them from shooting people. Also, from getting away with it if they did." GlyphGryph posted:My whole loving point to begin with was that "identifying privilege" was almost worthless, because people are already aware. Slaveholders knew exactly what privileges they had and were not going to just give them up.
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Dec 6, 2014 00:51
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SedanChair posted:No, don't worry about it *marks other doors with lamb's blood, leaves your door unmarked* Quoting this on the new page because SedanChair literally wants Hashem to take my first born 
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Dec 6, 2014 00:52
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Helsing posted:A more accessible example for most folks might be workplace rules on sexual harassment that limit your ability to tell jokes or flirt with coworkers because those actions, while seemingly harmless from one perspective, can actually create a really alienating and hostile work environment for others. The problem with the concept of 'privilege' is not the idea it represents, it's its usefulness. It does tell you that some people got it easier in the society than the others, but offers no insight why this happens or what can be done with it. It presents inequality as some mysterious force that simply exists and cannot be ever defeated. Even if you belong to the privileged group, you can do nothing to level the playing field, because privilege exists outside of you whether you want it or not. If you're a minority, you can do nothing by definition. It's presented as an outside, malicious force that can never be fought except by making everyone aware of its existence and mitigating damage it causes. This makes privilege useless, except when used as a bludgeoning tool against people that already acknowledge its existence. It doesn't mean anything to the people beyond the left, because they either don't acknowledge their privileged position, or their ideology offers them a way to rationalize it. As for the unprivileged, it means only knowledge of the fact that they are hosed over by something they can't influence. It's not too useful for the privileged people that are already sympathetic to the cause, because they already know - that's why they are there. The way I usually saw it used is as a pretext to straight out dismiss the opponent's argument ("You're too privileged, what can you know?"), or just to vent some anger on an acceptable target.
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Dec 6, 2014 00:54
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The Snark posted:You're assumption is incorrect, but if I'd needed that sort of help I'd have liked to think it would have. I have noticed a lot of the tumblr types are very much into anger as it's own end, much like "JUST RECOGNIZE YOUR PRIVILEGE! (and shut up when I talk/never question if I am correct)" is. Why the gently caress should you be miserable or not deal with reality as it is? That has nothing to do with trying to change things, so much as not being a miserable, insufferable poo poo while trying to do so.
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Dec 6, 2014 00:54
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Gantolandon posted:The way I usually saw it used is as a pretext to straight out dismiss the opponent's argument ("You're too privileged, what can you know?"), or just to vent some anger on an acceptable target. Bring up their education or money privilege and see how fast they talk about the ordinality of race, orientation, and sexual identity versus class in the order of oppression operations sometime. So anyway can we "matrix it out" yet? 
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Dec 6, 2014 00:56
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GENDERWEIRD GREEDO posted:Your entire post history in this thread is a bunch of dumb loving one liners
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Dec 6, 2014 00:57
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GENDERWEIRD GREEDO posted:Your entire post history in this thread is a bunch of dumb loving one liners Rent-A-Cop posted:That's his gimmick. Like how SedanChair roleplays Huey Freeman and Zeitgeist pretends he isn't on everyone's ignore list. oh no the honor of forum
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Dec 6, 2014 01:00
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What's wrong with Huey Freeman? I love Boondocks.
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Dec 6, 2014 01:01
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Helsing posted:Well whether or not it should be elevated to the status of "theory" I think there's a sense that on some parts of the campus left we've reached a point where talking about privilege has become more of a form of social signalling or status building than an actual tool for dismantling oppression. I've certainly met people who seem to be using it that way (usually they are white dudes, no less). I think that the fact that it isn't a theory is important. There are critical weaknesses (well, maybe not for someone as self-aware as that guy, but frankly, depressives are easy to shut up) in the way of thinking because there's nothing holding it together, it's just people repeating "check your privilege", "solidarity is for white women", and other catchphrases. This means that it's much easier to attack than, say, someone who sincerely believes that you need two X chromosomes, a vayjayjay untouched by the scalpel, and a womb in order to be a woman, because you have to out-maneuver their theory and they can just sit within it (granted, trans people are exactly what all the tedious anger about identity politics is about, probably) untouched and almost untouchable. But someone who believes that all leftism has only improved the position of white people can have Vietnam, or Algeria, or any other anti-colonial movement that was at least notionally leftist, or hell, the ANC thrown in their faces and all they can do is succumb to despair, disengage completely, or recognize that things aren't all bad. And people that are verging in that direction can have those counterexamples shot right at them to alter their trajectory. The Snark posted:I am of the opinion that was a really very insightful article that would help many people to actually pursue improvements to society instead of figuratively blowing off their own goddamn feet while screaming hyperbole. Frankly, I would rather have you outside the tent pissing in than inside the tent pissing out.
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Dec 6, 2014 01:01
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GENDERWEIRD GREEDO posted:Your entire post history in this thread is a bunch of dumb loving one liners So can I take this down as the official GIP policy position regarding D&D? *scribbles "not tedious and straitlaced enough" into notebook*
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Dec 6, 2014 01:03
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Effectronica posted:Frankly, I would rather have you outside the tent pissing in than inside the tent pissing out. I'm sure many others feel the same about many others in the tent. As do I.
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Dec 6, 2014 01:04
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The Snark posted:I'm sure many others feel the same about many others in the tent. As do I. No, like, I don't loving care about the vast numbers of people alienated away from leftism because of this, even if they're in the double digits. Many of those people have no real sympathy for leftism like Kyrie, have broken brains like you, or can be brought back in with alternatives. What's more important for me are the people being led down into a sucking void of despair and learned helplessness.
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Dec 6, 2014 01:06
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Space Whale posted:What's wrong with Huey Freeman? I love Boondocks.
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Dec 6, 2014 01:07
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Effectronica posted:No, like, I don't loving care about the vast numbers of people alienated away from leftism because of this, even if they're in the double digits. Many of those people have no real sympathy for leftism like Kyrie, have broken brains like you, or can be brought back in with alternatives. What's more important for me are the people being led down into a sucking void of despair and learned helplessness. I agree with this.
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Dec 6, 2014 01:15
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Effectronica posted:No, like, I don't loving care about the vast numbers of people alienated away from leftism because of this, even if they're in the double digits. Many of those people have no real sympathy for leftism like Kyrie, have broken brains like you, or can be brought back in with alternatives. What's more important for me are the people being led down into a sucking void of despair and learned helplessness. Would it pain you to learn I would rather no one be led into a sucking void of despair and learned helplessness either? Maybe you can write it off as a broken clock being right twice a day, ye paragon of mental health.
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Dec 6, 2014 01:16
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Effectronica posted:So can I take this down as the official GIP policy position regarding D&D? I'm not allowed to speak for GIP but I can refer your question to my forums superiors
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Dec 6, 2014 01:17
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Effectronica posted:No, like, I don't loving care about the vast numbers of people alienated away from leftism because of this, even if they're in the double digits. Many of those people have no real sympathy for leftism like Kyrie, have broken brains like you, or can be brought back in with alternatives. What's more important for me are the people being led down into a sucking void of despair and learned helplessness. "I want to change society. gently caress parts of it that aren't with the program." You realize that's going to make a lot of people not just ignore but perhaps even actively resist you and your goals because of that sentiment, right?
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Dec 6, 2014 01:18
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