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spacegoat posted:New thread title please. Okay!
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Dec 7, 2014 04:22
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PeterWeller posted:Climax is resolution. It is when the conflict is resolved. The point of 40K fiction is to give you a climax you can resolve on the table with your toys. Truth. Cheers (the television program) was on top while Sam and Dianne were embroiled a sexually charged conflict, as soon as they became a couple the show dipped; so they booted Dianne and invented Rebecca, a new woman for Sam to have a sexually charged conflict with. If you are to young or to not American enough to get this reference, too loving bad So as much as it pains me to say this, PeterWeller is correct. Climax is resolution, and resolution is the death of narrative. E: Regarding the title change, that was some awesome timing on my part.
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Dec 7, 2014 04:24
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Rulebook Heavily posted:Even very basic dramatic theory will tell you that climax isn't even second-to-last when it comes to resolving a story. Nah man, that is basic dramatic theory. The climax is the resolution of the conflict. It is the peak of the narrative arc. Everything after is just stuff settling into place. And if there are examples of GW resolving stories within the 40K setting, what then is the problem?
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Dec 7, 2014 04:27
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The problem is not that either 'gigantic open-ended sandbox' or 'dominant meta story arc' are better than the other, it's that GW seems determined to include both of them, at cross purposes to each other. And saying 'well, you can resolve the climax on the tabletop with your toys!!' is not a good answer in practice, with regards to this specific game (though I agree that it's a very nice ideal to aim for) because your game with your opponent does not in any meaningful fashion actually address the issue of whether Abaddon beats Marneus Calgar in the climactic duel for the fate of the galaxy at the end of the dark millennium, and both you and your opponent are perfectly aware of that. It might be able to address the question of whether your no-name chaos lord beats your opponent's no-name ork warboss in a homebrew campaign over the fate of a particular sector. In fact, I would argue that's exactly the sort of place where the 'forge the narrative' really shines, because there's actually an opportunity to forge a narrative without GW going, "Whoops, we're gonna have to call takebacksies, because Eldrad's totally still alive." If GW realized this and doubled down on the sandbox potential rather than trying to get everyone excited about what all the mary sues are doing in M41.999, we wouldn't have to have this conversation.
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Dec 7, 2014 04:28
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e: and entirely aside from what is wrong with this, JerryLee is correct about why the "it's a sandbox" thing is a half-hearted excuse.PeterWeller posted:Nah man, that is basic dramatic theory. The climax is the resolution of the conflict. It is the peak of the narrative arc. Everything after is just stuff settling into place. One, no, you're getting some pretty important poo poo wrong in dramatic theory there just to argue a stupid point about 40k setting fiction (the climax is just a point of action after which there's an entire separate and even multiple stages of resolution), and two, the problem is that they're not only not doing it anymore, they're just adding more poo poo to the 999.m41 date as if they're going to one day resolve things but don't ever want to do it again. That they stopped resolving things, and stopped making things that they could realistically resolve, is the entire problem. They're in permanent lovely Anime filler material mode and people are defending this as good and just and the fault of the customer for not caring correctly. Rulebook Heavily fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Dec 7, 2014 |
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Dec 7, 2014 04:32
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Miniwargaming.com's battle reports are so hit or miss. I enjoy almost everything Matt does, but Dave, Ash, and all of the other obnoxious and loud folks need to get some medication. Does anyone else do narrative campaign battle reports? The Storms of Ixia (Orcs, Guard and Tyranid) and more recent SoB vs Genestealer campaigns were really well done and very entertaining. I'd like more stuff like this. I'd also like to play more stuff like this, so I guess I too would like narrative campaigns to be a bigger thing in 40k.
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Dec 7, 2014 04:32
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Haha, I was thinking about including "It's a loving sex metaphor" in that last post. And I disagree, JerryLee. The outcomes you see on the table are as meaningful as you want them to be. It's all a bunch of made up bullshit after all.
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Dec 7, 2014 04:33
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Ettin posted:Okay! Yissss. loving hams chill out and play games.
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Dec 7, 2014 04:37
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Rulebook Heavily posted:One, no, you're getting some pretty important poo poo wrong in dramatic theory there just to argue a stupid point about 40k setting fiction Nope. Freytag drew it in the middle, but the climax takes place near the end of the story when tension is released in resolution of the conflict. Which is why the arc is drawn lop-sided in every modern interpretation (and falling action and denounment are often combined). PeterWeller fucked around with this message at 05:06 on Dec 7, 2014 |
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Dec 7, 2014 04:43
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Rebels versus Empire, would Star Wars exist if either side had a definitive victory? No probably not. So because of this unending conflict we get movies, books, graphic novels, video games, table top games, and for better or worse fan fiction and fan films, as well as thousands upon thousands of lines of text on message boards. Unresolved conflict is not only desirable, but necessary. (Though having said that I suppose the Germans lost WWII but historical gamers still play them, so what the gently caress do I know?)
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Dec 7, 2014 04:47
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The only way to do a progression of the setting and not have it be utterly game endingly poo poo, would be to do one expansion every few years with each expansion being an end game 'What If' scenario. None of them fixed canonically. And then everyone would poo poo their pants at GW exploiting the customers for more money.
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Dec 7, 2014 04:49
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drgnvale posted:Does anyone else do narrative campaign battle reports? The Storms of Ixia (Orcs, Guard and Tyranid) and more recent SoB vs Genestealer campaigns were really well done and very entertaining. I'd like more stuff like this. Yep! Though I was planning on writing up a bunch of poo poo and releasing it piecemeal as our 'Tombs of Nepenthe' campaign has been taking, like, 3 years to play out so far. We're bad 'hams.
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Dec 7, 2014 04:50
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Rapey Joe Stalin posted:The only way to do a progression of the setting and not have it be utterly game endingly poo poo, would be to do one expansion every few years with each expansion being an end game 'What If' scenario. None of them fixed canonically. Didn't white wolf do this when they ended the old World of Darkness setting? Again, horrible flashbacks to 90s RPGs in this thread.
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Dec 7, 2014 05:12
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Indolent Bastard posted:Rebels versus Empire, would Star Wars exist if either side had a definitive victory? No probably not. We can only dream of this, a better world.
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Dec 7, 2014 05:16
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Indolent Bastard posted:Rebels versus Empire, would Star Wars exist if either side had a definitive victory? No probably not. So because of this unending conflict we get movies, books, graphic novels, video games, table top games, and for better or worse fan fiction and fan films, as well as thousands upon thousands of lines of text on message boards. I think the two sides are sort of arguing past each other. I'm sure there are some people out there who want to see galaxy-spanning regime changes, but it would not be impossible to advance very slowly (Privateer Press fluff positively crawls, I think like two months of time have advanced in Hordes since MkII came out in 2010) in ways that resolve individual conflicts and toe into M.42 without triggering the ENDGAME. At the same time, GW has kind of written themselves into a whole by promising that the endgames are mostly days away from fruition, and I for one don't want to see an End Times equivalent happen where all of the named characters die or switch sides or power up or all three. To the extent that I think "advancing the storyline" is a good idea, I think actual advances should be local in scale ("more stuff happens on Cadia") and involve specific characters that are not all queued up to fight each other in single combat, and I also think that M.42 ticking around should be just the gloomy beginning of another ten thousand years of increasingly hellish hell rather than the literal second that the universe shits itself to death. But I also think there's a ton of really interesting backstory to explore, I really like what they've done with Horus Heresy, I really hope that they continue the 30k train post-heresy (like with what John French and ADB are doing with their Ahriman and Abaddon series), and there are plenty of stories set in 40k that ARE developing and plenty more that were born, developed, and ended. Most of those stories don't feature characters who are represented in Codexes, but who gives a poo poo. EDIT: I started playing L5R in the Clan War days and quit right around the time that Naseru became emperor or something.
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Dec 7, 2014 05:19
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Indolent Bastard posted:Rebels versus Empire, would Star Wars exist if either side had a definitive victory? No probably not. So because of this unending conflict we get movies, books, graphic novels, video games, table top games, and for better or worse fan fiction and fan films, as well as thousands upon thousands of lines of text on message boards. Well, to extend the Star Wars analogy, all anyone's asking for is to see the second Death Star finally blow up so that we can see what happens next. If the problem is that GW's so massively and hilariously built up the idea that immediately after the end of M41, the universe as we know it literally ends and there are no more stories to be told (or at least not any that are intelligible in the context of the current tabletop factions) then maybe that's something they should look at walking back a little.
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Dec 7, 2014 05:22
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I always just imagine my dudes are in some far-removed corner of the galaxy doing their thing, and all the main poo poo is so distant it doesn't matter. gently caress those guys.
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Dec 7, 2014 05:22
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drgnvale posted:Miniwargaming.com's battle reports are so hit or miss. I enjoy almost everything Matt does, but Dave, Ash, and all of the other obnoxious and loud folks need to get some medication. It's kind of funny to see that I'm not the only one who thinks this. All of Matt's stuff is great, but I can't stand anyone else, especially Dave- he comes off as a complete rear end in a top hat and someone I would never actually want to play 40k against. For me what makes the Miniwargaming reports good is that they show every dice roll and explain the rules as they're used. It's like you're actually watching a game. Most other reports are a series of "Okay here is what happened this last turn". JerryLee posted:Well, to extend the Star Wars analogy, all anyone's asking for is to see the second Death Star finally blow up so that we can see what happens next. All of the in-book commentary in the Caiphas Cain books was written in M42. Just throwing that out there. Arven fucked around with this message at 05:28 on Dec 7, 2014 |
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Dec 7, 2014 05:23
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Arven posted:All of the in-book commentary in the Caiphas Cain books was written in M42. Just throwing that out there. Yeah, that's a good point. I wonder if GW wishes they could pull a Squats on that.
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Dec 7, 2014 05:31
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Sulecrist posted:To the extent that I think "advancing the storyline" is a good idea, I think actual advances should be local in scale ("more stuff happens on Cadia") and involve specific characters that are not all queued up to fight each other in single combat They sort of do this, but the fluff doesn't advance forward so much as outward. Each new codex adds some more complication to the pile of conflicts aching to resolve. For example, the DE book added this whole new angle about some massive warp portal in Cammoragh. JerryLee posted:Well, to extend the Star Wars analogy, all anyone's asking for is to see the second Death Star finally blow up so that we can see what happens next. That's not the problem. The problem is the whole climaxes thing. The fiction exists to support the game, to give you conflicts to resolve. So it's like bowling. What do they do after they knock all the pins over? Set them back up.
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Dec 7, 2014 05:33
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Dec 7, 2014 05:41
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Master Twig posted:Why am I not surprised the box set stuff would be garbage. 210 points for 8 genestealers and a broodlord is ridiculous. Even with stealth they'll never make it to combat at full strength.  The Carnifex isn't terrible with IWND, but it's not a very good loadout. The Warriors are too expensive which means they'll die to all the S8+ that the BA half has, and the Carnifex is the only thing that'll stand a chance against the Dreadnought ,despite being more points-heavy  PierreTheMime posted:Expecting them to reach combat at full strength in any situation is asking a lot. Infiltrating a Shrouded unit into ruins though takes their survival from "possible" to "highly likely" and The Horror will allow them to shut down their target unit and reach combat turn two. It's not too tier but I wouldn't call it complete garbage.
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Dec 7, 2014 05:46
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Of course Warhams want all the conflicts in 40k resolved. Because the tension of finding out who will win is part of what keeps them there chasin that robo-dragon. What they really want is sweet release from their horrible hobby but GW will never let them go which is why they are all so mad at GW all the time.
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Dec 7, 2014 05:49
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I like those Blood Angels terminators--the BA iconography isn't too overbearing, but it's enough to be distinctive. Still with the goddamn chicken legs though. They need to grab whoever does the Cataphractii and Tartaros for FW and get them to overhaul the Indomitus pattern.
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Dec 7, 2014 05:50
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I like any battle report given by someone with a English accent or from British Columbia, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfukhYkoSv4 Goes by Skaredcast Lot's of good videos, plus I like the time lapse movement phase. I hate it when a battle report just skips to the end of the turn, it's loving lovely. At least time lapse the video and tell us what's going on.
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Dec 7, 2014 05:53
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HiveCommander posted:The Carnifex isn't terrible with IWND, but it's not a very good loadout. The Warriors are too expensive which means they'll die to all the S8+ that the BA half has, and the Carnifex is the only thing that'll stand a chance against the Dreadnought ,despite being more points-heavy  Man, those terminators are nice. I know they aren't actually special and nothing's new other than that banner. It still makes a lot of sense as a kit though. Most of the work has already been done with the Space Hulk models so the sculptors/designers were just able to crib off of them. Blood Angels players will probably buy them just so that their terminators can be as blinged out as the rest of their army. I'm a little surprised that there's no dual kit unit tied to the box though. On that note, does anyone know if the terminator librarian is going to end up as its own blister or included in this new box?
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Dec 7, 2014 06:00
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Safety Factor posted:The genestealers could totally rock that dreadnought.
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Dec 7, 2014 06:03
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In general I like Skare's stuff. Particularly his DE unit reviews. However, he has an overly theatrical, overly enunciated way of speaking which seems very unnatural. And he is prone to making basic pronunciation errors like "mealy" instead of "melee," which is just jarring. Edit: Yeah, I'm a lot more likely to pick up a box of the BA terminators in the hopes of spreading parts across my generic terminators than I am to buy the new tactical squad. The generic terminators are in dire need of some gussying up. Lovely Joe Stalin fucked around with this message at 06:10 on Dec 7, 2014 |
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Dec 7, 2014 06:07
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Are miniwargaming's vids considered the best batrep videos out there? I didn't really know this was a thing and my group has an HD webcam over our primary game table to provide top down views like old WD batreps. We might start doing this sort of thing.
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Dec 7, 2014 06:09
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If you do please for the love of god time lapse the movement phase. Batreps that are from a low angle are just to me the worst kind, that drives me crazy, oh and people not having good audio and not speaking from their diaphragm. I don't particularly care for Miniwargamings battle reports because the armies are usually bizzare and games seem kind of " This one guy that knows how to play, this one guy who's going to stomp the other guy into the ground". I like frontlinegaming and generally any JY2 battle report on Dakka is generally really well written but no video. Also anyone with a British accent their videos are automatically better. Hollismason fucked around with this message at 06:24 on Dec 7, 2014 |
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Dec 7, 2014 06:22
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I'm trying out SKYBOSS WINGNUTZ' AIR ARMADA in my Ork army and I have a question. When a formation comes in from reserves do you roll once for the whole formation or once for each unit? I thought it was for each unit but random store guy swears the formation comes in all at once. Anyway, tabled a guy in turn 5 with very shooty Orks and the Air Armada against foot slogging CSM with one demon prince. It was a fun game but 100% one-sided. I think I lost ten Orks in the whole game.
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Dec 7, 2014 06:30
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BlackIronHeart posted:Are miniwargaming's vids considered the best batrep videos out there? I didn't really know this was a thing and my group has an HD webcam over our primary game table to provide top down views like old WD batreps. We might start doing this sort of thing. Good lord no. While I really enjoy Matt's videos, his games are never competitive like frontline's or any of the tournament groups that publish videos. They also tend to run really long; a frontline video might be 10-20 minutes, and a miniwargaming one is going to be at least 40, sometimes 120+, unless its one of the new tyranids ones where the new units get stomped out by D str weapons without doing much. On the positive side, he's such a good sport about winning and losing. The reports do make you feel like you're watching a game of 40k between friends, so if you don't like all the dice rolling and moving they will bore you. Matt's also in love with statistics, so every time he rolls a bunch of dice he calls out how close to average the rolls are, but that's really the most annoying thing. Dave's videos are "lol random" nonsense with rapid sweeping camera movement, unregulated volume and general bad internet behavior. It's like watching a battle report done by those weird foam girls who had their 5 minutes of internet fame some time back. Occasionally I consider dropping my miniwargaming vault membership just to put into concrete terms how much I dislike the majority of their non-Matt content. But then Matt will run a narrative campaign that lasts for 5-6 weeks and is really well done and I renew the drat thing just to make sure I get more of those.
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Dec 7, 2014 06:49
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drgnvale posted:Dave's videos are "lol random" nonsense with rapid sweeping camera movement, unregulated volume and general bad internet behavior. It's like watching a battle report done by those weird foam girls who had their 5 minutes of internet fame some time back. Occasionally I consider dropping my miniwargaming vault membership just to put into concrete terms how much I dislike the majority of their non-Matt content. The last Dave-made battle report I watched he was loudly eating an apple while controlling the camera. Also, his jokes are just awful, about half the time you're stuck with the camera lingering on an increasingly uncomfortable-looking warham.
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Dec 7, 2014 07:10
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Hollismason posted:Unfortunately there's not a lot out there for advanced campaigning. I mean it's alright but I want a big loving book with squad advancements a territories map etc.. I've been thinking about this a lot lately actually. I would totally be into this. However one of my guest hosts brought up an interesting point. "You might be into resource management and all those complicated ideas, but are your players? That's the real question." So yeah - I like the idea - but not everyone does. Also, I really think you need some type of tools to track this kind of thing. Tracking it by hand on paper is just a pain...
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Dec 7, 2014 08:05
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Striking scorpion 82 is a pretty good 'ham from the UK who does good batreps online. It's a shame his (brother?) opponent who plays IG is just goddamn awful at writing army lists. I always cringe when he unveils a command squad with heavy flamer, plasma gun, plasma pistol and lascannon in a chimera (almost 200 pts for 5 guardsmen  )
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Dec 7, 2014 10:08
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CyberLord XP posted:I'm trying out SKYBOSS WINGNUTZ' AIR ARMADA in my Ork army and I have a question. When a formation comes in from reserves do you roll once for the whole formation or once for each unit? I thought it was for each unit but random store guy swears the formation comes in all at once. Pretty sure it's each unit unless that specific formation has a rule that says otherwise (iirc one of the Stormtalon ones has an escort rule that works like this).
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Dec 7, 2014 10:48
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Lord Twisted posted:Striking scorpion 82 is a pretty good 'ham from the UK who does good batreps online. I am a longstanding advocate of taking what you want however the thing for me that I find tiresome is the way he always castles up as much as possible behind an aegis line and the game consists of SS82 gently manoeuvring around the fire lanes. E| Zark I haven't forgotten that at a point when I can access my stack of unused wargames that I will dig out the rogue trader bits for you. I am hoping the Christmas break will give me a chance to inbox some stuff. JackMack fucked around with this message at 12:00 on Dec 7, 2014 |
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Dec 7, 2014 11:58
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I was given a second taurox today as an advent calendar gift, and the instructions were wrong in this box too, so if you follow them, the rear tracks end up misaligned. I don't intend on ever using the original tracks, but here's a fair warning to y'all.
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Dec 7, 2014 12:12
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ThNextGreenLantern posted:The last Dave-made battle report I watched he was loudly eating an apple while controlling the camera. Also, his jokes are just awful, about half the time you're stuck with the camera lingering on an increasingly uncomfortable-looking warham. God he's so unfunny, classic example of the guy who talks the most who should talk the least. Also Dave doesn't know the rules, he's always making mistakes and getting basic things wrong. Which would be fine if you were just a guy playing Beerhammer, but this is literally his job. Sit down and read the drat rules. Plus he gets his weird obsessions, 5 Helbrutes sound familiar to anyone else? I haven't seen much Ash stuff, since he mostly seems to do Fantasy which i have no interest in. Matt and Steve (does Steve actually work there?) both seem like decent guys who would be fun to play against. I'm also a vault member, but it's solely for the Beat Matt' and Campaign stuff.
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Dec 7, 2014 12:18
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Ghost Hand posted:I've been thinking about this a lot lately actually. I would totally be into this. However one of my guest hosts brought up an interesting point. "You might be into resource management and all those complicated ideas, but are your players? That's the real question." I think the issue is the scale of the game versus the scale of a 41st millennium campaign. As such if you are looking at two (or more) gigantic forces splayed in massive fronts over the surface of a planet with armies of hundreds of thousands our fifty models on the table are a drop in the ocean. WHilst the game represents the crunch point of a particular battle I can imagine a way of determining the rest of a huge conflict would be the challenge. You would essentially need a separate game. (Was this what mighty empires did for fantasy). There are so many other factors such as space battles, reinforcements, logistics doing this in a way that doesn't unbalance the actual tabletop experience to the point it stops being fun for the person on the side that is losing. Necromunda struggles to stay balanced even at that scale. I think the best way is that gaming group where the guys write the narrative (I can't recall the name but the ones on your show). There the narrative moves forward and the game is kept balanced and tabletop actions influence the outcome. I wonder if the best way would be to have a GM who sets the scenario and the players on each team decide their actions (push forward on right flank) fortify centre, air assault left) and communicate to the GM separately. At that point he sits down and integrates into a new story and comes up with some games. You obviously need someone pretty good to do this! You could make this table driven and do stats and dice rolls or just someone good at reacting to good ideas and spinning a good yarn.
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Dec 7, 2014 12:40
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