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Squidster posted:Audiences would never, ever, ever watch three copies of the same show. There is literally no way to market and sell that. And yet here we are today. 
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Dec 7, 2014 20:17
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What a ballroom brawl from Dusk till Dawn this thread is turning out to be.
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Dec 7, 2014 20:28
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Beef Waifu posted:Oh yeah, anyone saying to read the VN is loving crazy, I read that poo poo when I was 16 and when I entertained the idea of doing again, I got past the prologue and saw my afternoon had flown by and was like "NOPE NOT AGAIN." I read Heaven's Feel at a pace of about one VN day every day which took about an hour's time before sleep. Took me a month overall, I think? This thing is better taken in small doses anyhow, there's only so much good TM content available in English that there's no point in rushing it.
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Dec 7, 2014 20:38
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Squidster posted:If the show was simply bad, I wouldn't care. It's because it's so close to being good that I'm passionate about it. It has the cool setting, potential for fun characters, certainly the budget, and it really could be something great. It just needs an editor. 
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Dec 7, 2014 20:50
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Grouchio posted:What a ballroom brawl from Dusk till Dawn this thread is turning out to be. That was a good movie.
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Dec 7, 2014 20:56
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lol, shirou's ideals have never been questioned the entire goddamn thing is about his ideals being questioned archer is one of the main characters and his entire existence is questioning shirou's ideals Endorph fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Dec 7, 2014 |
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Dec 7, 2014 21:32
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Rin calls him stupid at multiple points because of his ideals.
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Dec 7, 2014 21:38
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No she calls him stupid because Shirou is stupid.
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Dec 7, 2014 21:49
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the entire show is about questioning shirou's ideals the j-pop opening has the word 'ideal' in the name im going to have an ulcer
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Dec 7, 2014 21:53
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Shiro's gonna have an ulcer too, iykwim.
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Dec 7, 2014 22:06
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Endorph posted:the entire show is about questioning shirou's ideals archer literally tried to kill him after they fought about their differing ideals like two episodes ago
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Dec 7, 2014 22:09
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Cake Attack posted:archer literally tried to kill him after they fought about their differing ideals like two episodes ago
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Dec 7, 2014 22:11
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Maybe they're looking for a more substantial challenge than "Shirou your ideals are stupid" "No they are not  "
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Dec 7, 2014 22:33
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I don't think you get the clearest idea of character motivations from watching the anime so far, but in its defense I'm not sure how much character drama Fate/Zero had going on by episode 9 either. It had more intrigue and more interesting fight scenes, but in terms of character development, I think a lot of the important scenes happened in the second half of the story.
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Dec 7, 2014 23:17
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Maybe they're looking for a more substantial challenge than Archer won't really tell Shirou what his own beliefs are, so we get muddled messages from his conflict with Shirou. He clearly doesn't respect him, but also completely fails to kill him for author fiat reasons. We have no idea who the other villains are, or what they believe. Everyone else who's normal... takes advantage of Shirou I guess? Shirou seems perfectly content with that, and the show hasn't shown him under a great deal of stress about it. And of course, Saber's chivalry is 110% on board with Shirou's beliefs. So far, in-show, his beliefs are the correct way to live your life. It doesn't help that Shirou's worldview is so generically shonen-ish. I'm comparing the show to Fate Zero a lot, because it's my only other exposure to the Fate universe, but even without that context it wouldn't be a strong show. I'm starting to believe that Stay Night is an insular product built for an extremely niche audience, and that does render it immune to a lot of criticisms. I liked the premise and the world, but if it's built to be indifferent or hostile to a Filthy Casual audience... then that's what it is.
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Dec 7, 2014 23:58
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Zero and UBW are pretty similar, pacing-wise. Slow as balls to start, poo poo hits fan in a big way later. The biggest difference? Shirou is an idiot, but I like him. Rin puts on a big facade, but she's a softy. I like her. Taiga is great. Archer is a dick, but I like him. Saber is...well, Saber. Zero had an unlikable cast with the exception of Iris, Rider and kid Rin. I'll take it a step further: if Rider wasn't in Zero it would have been one of the grimdarkiest romps in a while. UBW keeps the likable parts front and center, Zero pushes them off to the side and lets Kiritsugu be an rear end in a top hat while Saber keeps Saber-ing. I like both UBW and Zero, but the payoff to UBW is better than the payoff to Zero. Though, I will admit, we will never see  in UBW. 
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Dec 8, 2014 00:15
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I think it will be interesting to see whether once completed, the show has addressed your (perfectly reasonable, imo) criticism to your satisfaction. It inevitably has to wrap it all up, but in the game I felt the drip fed exploration of Shirou's motivations and personality were satisfying, and I would perhaps feel the same way about the anime that you do if I weren't coming with that existing knowledge.
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Dec 8, 2014 00:20
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Squidster posted:This is basically it. None of the rebukes of his superhero ideology come from any kind of reliable source. Rin does not live by her own stated beliefs, and isn't consistent enough to give him a rebuke. She obviously also finds his idiocy admirable, as seen by her tsundere falling for his shonen herodom. I thought this episode was pretty darn amusing, I like the Rin/Shirou interactions even if they might seem formulaic, and while it's becoming increasingly clear simply forgetting Zero entirely is the better way to go it was a nice bittersweet moment when Taiga talked about Shirou's idealism w/r/t Kiritsugu. This is what you are going to get for a long time in this story with the occasional good fights peppered throughout.
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Dec 8, 2014 00:22
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Squidster posted:This is basically it. None of the rebukes of his superhero ideology come from any kind of reliable source. Rin does not live by her own stated beliefs, and isn't consistent enough to give him a rebuke. She obviously also finds his idiocy admirable, as seen by her tsundere falling for his shonen herodom. You keep trying to push this hugely successful franchise as some niche product, which is a bizarre argument unless you're talking about the context of media in general wherein all anime falls into the niche category barring like, 3 or 4 movies. As for all that other poo poo, it's the same as Zero, the first half is setup, the 2nd half is payoff. You'll learn what the villains are about, you'll hear what Archer's thoughts are, hell, the one you'll learn the most about is Shirou himself (because Fate Stay Night, and even Fate Zero really, are ultimately about Shirou and how hosed up he is). Like, by this point in Zero you had absolutely no idea what the two main characters were actually thinking, or indeed what anyone was thinking barring the two dimensional ones like Kayneth or Team Cool, so I don't know why you want everything frontloaded in this show.
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Dec 8, 2014 00:23
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Squidster posted:Archer won't really tell Shirou what his own beliefs are, so we get muddled messages from his conflict with Shirou. He clearly doesn't respect him, but also completely fails to kill him for author fiat reasons. We have no idea who the other villains are, or what they believe. Everyone else who's normal... takes advantage of Shirou I guess? Shirou seems perfectly content with that, and the show hasn't shown him under a great deal of stress about it. Also, I'm actually curious what you mean by these author fiat reasons. To me it seems like consistent actions of the characters based on their personalities why all the decisions get made. It helps a lot that I know the characters, of course. Mostly though, I'm curious about what seems author fiat or out of place compared to Fate/Zero. In Season 1 there was like two battles that had 5+ servants there and somehow there was a big nothing coming out of the first and in the second the only person to die was Caster (oh and that guy got burned). That also seems really contorted if you don't look at the specific reasons for why everyone got out alive. EDIT: Oh sorry I forgot, there was the conflict in the woods where mostly no one died but that guy had a mana bullet shot through him. Comparing to this, that about corresponds to Rider being taken out of the game right now. Twiddy fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 00:30
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I don't get why people say Zero is ever slow. The first episode I guess, since it's mostly exposition, but after that poo poo starts happening and never really stops. Compared to this which is quite dull aside from the fight scenes.
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Dec 8, 2014 00:33
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Genocyber posted:I don't get why people say Zero is ever slow. The first episode I guess, since it's mostly exposition, but after that poo poo starts happening and never really stops. Compared to this which is quite dull aside from the fight scenes.
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Dec 8, 2014 00:36
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Genocyber posted:I don't get why people say Zero is ever slow. The first episode I guess, since it's mostly exposition, but after that poo poo starts happening and never really stops. Compared to this which is quite dull aside from the fight scenes. Zero has a lot happening but does not have a lot of actual plot progression. It doesn't "feel" slow to people because it jumps from Servant team to Servant team so there's a reasonable amount of things to distract. FSN as a whole does not introduce all the Servants right away and also does not focus on certain groups as much due to the very nature of it.
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Dec 8, 2014 00:37
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Endorph posted:Personally, I considered it slow, or at least dull, because Kiritsugu was a complete cypher for 90% of the show and the payoff wasn't really worth it IMO. Even if you think Shirou's bland, you at least get where he's coming from and what his goals are. That makes it a lot easier for me to care. Even if you dislike Kiritsugu there's all the other characters doing their poo poo, whereas this just has Shirou as the focus so far, so it's all on him and his interactions to make things interesting.
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Dec 8, 2014 00:39
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The first part of Fate/Zero is slow up until the King's Banquet. That is where three central characters to Fate/Zero begin their relationship and their ideals and feelings effectively kickstart the story actually starting. Everything prior to that is those messing around or other servants showing up, attacking someone, and leaving. The motivations of Kiritsugu don't matter because he is a complete nonentity until the second half of the story, same for Kirei, and Waver is the only character with a third dimension by that point in the story while the remaining ones are all two-dimensional and just show up to fight. A good portion of characters don't start their character arcs and development until Caster is dead since Team Cool is such an overpowering force in the story.
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Dec 8, 2014 00:39
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Yosuke posted:Zero has a lot happening but does not have a lot of actual plot progression. It doesn't "feel" slow to people because it jumps from Servant team to Servant team so there's a reasonable amount of things to distract. FSN as a whole does not introduce all the Servants right away and also does not focus on certain groups as much due to the very nature of it. EDIT: ^^^ See, I'm not sure if the people who prefer Fate/Zero to this are seeing something I don't, or if they don't remember the story set pieces that took place at equivalent points in the narrative. Just to get an idea, last episode is where Kayneth gets shot by magic bullet (lines up with Rider's death hilariously well), and then had a whole lot of Diurmad drama along with the dramatic moment of Team Rider finding Team Serial Killer's workshop. Next episode is Rin's Big Adventure, followed by the council between Kings thing. Twiddy fucked around with this message at 00:50 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 00:44
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I did warn people in the Zero thread not to expect a Zero like show of mastermind masters, but more along the lines of Waver and Casters master just stumbling into situations, and every now and than showing some intelligence. it could be said that it is simply that the fate stay night is older material compared to fate zero, but that majority of the masters this time around are naive kids compared to zero where they where hardened adults. But yes things will start to pick up fighting wise with Riders death, her death was almost a catalyst that they should really start taking the grail war seriously, both for Rin and Shirou
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Dec 8, 2014 00:50
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If you remove the fights from Fate Zero, what exactly do you have?
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Dec 8, 2014 01:11
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A succession of buddy-cop comedies where they don't actually kill the guy with diplomatic immunity.
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Dec 8, 2014 01:15
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Fangz posted:If you remove the fights from Fate Zero, what exactly do you have? e: nevermind Rody One Half fucked around with this message at 01:32 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 01:18
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Fangz posted:If you remove the fights from Fate Zero, what exactly do you have? Two baby men trying to prove who is the biggest baby man.
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Dec 8, 2014 01:18
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I don't know why people think Zero was the better show. Aside from ufotable doing their thing the story and characters mostly hadn't had a lot going for them.
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Dec 8, 2014 01:22
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Fangz posted:If you remove the fights from Fate Zero, what exactly do you have?
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Dec 8, 2014 01:22
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e: nothing here either
Rody One Half fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 01:32
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Fangz posted:If you remove the fights from Fate Zero, what exactly do you have? Killer gunman Batman versus a repressed kung fu wizard priest Joker.
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Dec 8, 2014 01:39
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If you remove the fights from any of these shows what do you have? A reductio ad absurdum.
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Dec 8, 2014 01:39
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CuLT posted:If you remove the fights from any of these shows what do you have? UBW becomes a SoL cooking show.
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Dec 8, 2014 01:40
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Archer doesn't kill Shirou is already well explained by Saber, Archer is "pure of heart" and that's why his blow didn't finish Shirou off right then. Much the same way Rin was subconsciously holding back when she was attacking Shirou (further highlighting how well suited those two are).
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Dec 8, 2014 01:48
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KaneTW posted:UBW becomes a SoL cooking show. Sounds awesome. QED. Fangz fucked around with this message at 02:52 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 02:50
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Fangz posted:If you remove the fights from Fate Zero, what exactly do you have? A blown up hotel.
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Dec 8, 2014 05:16
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