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katlington posted:I don't know what you're talking about but it's not privilege theory. Care to explain what it is, then, and from whence you drew your definition from? I'll directly quote Peggy Mcintosh, generally considered the founding stalwart and most influential proponent of privilege theory: White Privilege and Male Privilege: A Personal Account of Coming to See Correspondences Through Work in Women's Studies, 1988 posted:<...>I think whites are carefully taught not to recognize white privilege, as males are taught not to recognize male privilege. So I have begun in an untutored way to ask what it is like to have white privilege. I have come to see white privilege as an invisible package of unearned assets that I can count on cashing in each day, but about which I was "meant" to remain oblivious. White privilege is like an invisible weightless knapsack of special provisions, maps, passports, codebooks, visas, clothes, tools , and blank checks. goatse.cx fucked around with this message at 07:38 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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So give me things to do to make stuff better for people who are not privileged, don't tell me I am and then just say "well recognise it" I don't want to recognise something if it does precisely jack and poo poo to solve problems for others or myself. Just going "well I am white and reasonably well off" sounds more like something done as "positive affirmation" by wankers than by people trying to help others out.
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Dec 8, 2014 07:15
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Helsing posted:On the unlikely chance that Star Dolphin is genuinely clueless and not actively trolling the thread here's a run down of the kinds of privilege you might lose as a cisgendered white male. This is a useful question to ask even if the person asking it doesn't appear to be debating in good faith. I've done my own research and reading, I've "shut up" and listened for years, and also spent most of my adult life, a decade, extremely poor. I saw my family die off due to a lack of access to medicine and then fall apart as a result of it all. Throughout all of that time I thought "man, this loving sucks, having food rot in the fridge when the power is off and not being able to do poo poo for my situation. I'll go be a babby socialist and hope society can change." I was into this poo poo when LF was still on SA. I know what many different people think privilege is. It's not a singly defined thing, since it's nebulous to begin with, so I have to ask what any person means by it, since it's so ill defined. That's one of my biggest issues with it. But please pretend I'm just an idiot. Needless to say all I got was "just imagine how much worse it would be if you were brown or gay or a woman." No sympathy, no aid, just "you poo poo lord, it's not really bad." Around the time I was recovering from the grief of my last parent leaving my life and this earth, my remaining family all pulling away, I had a black woman tell me how what I went through was awful - but it would be worse if, say, it happened to her, so I should feel bad for her, even though it didn't happen to her. Said woman is a programmer, so she's hardly not doing well. So, I know what various people have said about ~teh privilegeseseses~, and I know how it's used in practice when it becomes 'vulgarized' and used by shitheads who just want to carve out a little kingdom for themselves in groups that understand such terminology and tolerate its use. I know that I was basically just tolerated if I was or could prove to be useful, but nobody gave a poo poo. It finally sunk in when I was finally truly alone in the world that they never gave a poo poo, and I should try to find groups that did. I also realized "oh, I'm not the only person running into these poisonous cess pools of identity politics infected internet-leftie slacktivist tweeting harpy screecher shitheads" and thought about finding other people who actually care about issues but don't want to tear each other apart until only a queer woman of (every) color muslim amputee was left to arbitrate the truth. I mean, I still care. I did when I realized poo poo sucks, and if I didn't, that I lived through so many years of watching people wither and die, and so many years of poverty, complete with eating out of garbage and being evicted and having utilities shut off, going hungry and all that cool poo poo, would have made me get the memo anyway. But they don't care about class, they don't care about the poor. It's a bunch of little groups that are exclusively self-interested. How the gently caress can anyone reasonably expect such a structure, even in aggregate, can actually get anything done? They're more interested in making GBS threads on everyone and everything around the or having a panic attack and tweeting about it than actually cooperating. Like I said, I do care, I just don't want to put up with this bullshit anymore. I'm not longer in "put up with everything to care for others" mode, since the only people worth that kind of endurance are dead, or just gone. I'm quite certain I can actually tell people "hey the isms are bad, don't be an ist" without having to gaze at my navel or have some shithead assume my life was "privileged" in the fever dream sense of Leave it to Beaver picketed fences and just floating from school to college to a job with affluence and a blonde wife and kids and a house. gently caress, I dropped out of Highschool, got a GED, then dropped out out college, went back, got an AA, then dropped out again. I have no kids. There's also that whole decade of poo poo. I have no family. But some poo poo head who has a family and didn't live through that is going to act like he just crawled off of La Amistad if he's brown, or a she, or whatever, and I dare not agree 100% with his politics. But no, I'm privileged. I need to check the privileges. The only privilege I need to check is the one to stop caring, and it's finally kicking in, thank god if there is one. The fact that I let dipshits drag me down with them when I was already dealing with a nightmare makes me kick when I remember that. Thankfully, though, I can just not give a drat, in the event I can't find a left wing group that doesn't have this crap soaked through it. Maybe when this fad of self righteousness fades, I can do something! But for now, it seems like a tremendous waste of time.
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Dec 8, 2014 07:21
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Helsing posted:If you've never encountered a complicated theoretical topic then maybe you should do a basic amount of research before trying to have a debate about it. Just a thought. Just to avoid getting this mixed in with my tl;dr I have. There are multiple, competing definitions, some exclusive to another. There's the issue of what it's "supposed" to be and the separate issue of "how random kids (ab)use it" and the problems with that. I've put in YEARS into this poo poo, too. To either go "ur dumb" or one true scotsman like an rear end in a top hat when one of the biggest problems is the fact that it's not defined by an authority but rather by a left wing gaggle of gooks makes me think you just want to think you're right and have your little kingdom more than actually deal with what people have been bringing up.
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Dec 8, 2014 07:27
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katlington posted:No you misunderstand, you've got it backwards. You think that because your experience with it is weird people on the internet but weird people on the internet get things wrong and are not a good source to learn from. No true privilege. More seriously, the problem of privilege theory is that it is prone to the misunderstanding and abuse that I and others in the thread have referred to.
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Dec 8, 2014 07:29
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Josef bugman posted:So give me things to do to make stuff better for people who are not privileged, don't tell me I am and then just say "well recognise it" I don't want to recognise something if it does precisely jack and poo poo to solve problems for others or myself. Just going "well I am white and reasonably well off" sounds more like something done as "positive affirmation" by wankers than by people trying to help others out. It's an ongoing process of challenging one's own assumptions. You don't have to become some crusader and quit your job and work for the NAACP, you just have to realize how privilege has informed your actions and ask yourself if you want it to in the future. If hiring managers understand that they have called back fewer applications for people with "black sounding" names, maybe they will understand what it means when some dude named Latarian actually gets to the point where he is coming in for an interview. Understanding yourself is supposed to drive change, I thought that much was obvious.
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Dec 8, 2014 07:29
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katlington posted:I suppose you would lose the privilege of being treated better than discriminated against minorities. That is, you wouldn't be treated any worse, you wouldn't be treated like minorities are now, they would be treated like you are now (if you're a straight white man) and so would you. So who would have a problem with this, exactly? Why do the SedanChairs of the world like to get a poo poo eating grin and go "U SKEERD?" like a 15 year old? Seriously, where is all the loving vitriol coming from except the ideology itself that these kids have making them so loving pissy? There's basically nothing in that I'd have a problem with and I can't really wrap my brain around that as a privilege I'd be losing. There seems to be a lot of hang up on the word itself and fighting over semantics is a very popular past time for the left since they do such a poo poo job of outreach after giving up on the poor and the working class. katlington posted:Some people seem to read things the worst possible way. I don't know maybe they had a bad first experience with the concept or maybe they are reflexively defensive to new ideas. Years of offsite LFs and "slashie" in particular, to be pithy. I've had bad years of the internet left. But hey just keep thinking I'm dumb or ignorant when the problem is that a lot of people want to define this, not that there's a single clear definition I'm too lazy to look up.
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Dec 8, 2014 07:30
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Discendo Vox posted:No true privilege. More seriously, the problem of privilege theory is that it is prone to the misunderstanding and abuse that I and others in the thread have referred to. "No, YOU have it wrong!" turtles all the way down. SedanChair posted:It's an ongoing process of challenging one's own assumptions. You don't have to become some crusader and quit your job and work for the NAACP, you just have to realize how privilege has informed your actions and ask yourself if you want it to in the future. If hiring managers understand that they have called back fewer applications for people with "black sounding" names, maybe they will understand what it means when some dude named Latarian actually gets to the point where he is coming in for an interview. The way people like you (especially you) often come across is so much like a loving cult it's sometimes actually scary, if you really care that much about scaring privilege-havers. You might as well rattle of "what are your sins!" There's also the double-down problem. "Oh, you suffered? Welp if you were gay trans brown or a woman (whatever you aren't) it'd be worse, your suffering is invalid, go kiss up to someone who doesn't even have those problems but would hypothetically have had it worse, maybe if you have enough breakdowns you'll get it" gets old as gently caress. Edit: there's also an ironicat the size of loving Jupiter with challenging one's own assumptions conspicuously ignoring your ideology. You never really question yourself, just what your ideology tells you to question. You should be constantly questioning your world view and ideology, not just everyone else's. Space Whale fucked around with this message at 07:35 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 07:33
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Space Whale posted:thought about finding other people who actually care about issues but don't want to tear each other apart until only a queer woman of (every) color muslim amputee was left to arbitrate the truth. Like I alluded to earlier, this sounds like an Angry White Male rant about political correctness from 1994. Anyways, was this all on the internet? Space Whale posted:Just to avoid getting this mixed in with my tl;dr You just said that you've never heard or written anything about this topic except on the internet. Given you often you bring up internet slang, twitter, etc., it sounds more like your problem is with the internet, and how some people behave on it. If the "YEARS" you've put into this consist solely of arguing with people on the internet, welp, you're starting to sound like the internet slacktivists you're so angry at. (and I'm going to assume that last word is a typo, lol) Space Whale posted:No, which is the thing. This is the point. The "crux" of the problem, if you will. "I have no education or experience in this topic," isn't really convincing.
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Dec 8, 2014 07:37
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Space Whale posted:The way people like you (especially you) often come across is so much like a loving cult it's sometimes actually scary, if you really care that much about scaring privilege-havers. You might as well rattle of "what are your sins!" What are your sins? Are you saying you don't have any sins?
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Dec 8, 2014 07:39
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Sharkie posted:Like I alluded to earlier, this sounds like an Angry White Male rant about political correctness from 1994. Anyways, was this all on the internet? So where should people go for belonging, then? Wouldn't there then be "but you're not listening to us!" levied at people forming their own interest group?
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Dec 8, 2014 07:41
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SedanChair posted:Understanding yourself is supposed to drive change, I thought that much was obvious. So how do I do anything? I work at the lowest rung in an organisation how am I supposed to change things from this perspective? What is privilege supposed to do in that sort of situation. But it doesn't. Simply "understanding yourself" so easily gives way to either navel gazing or making yourself miserable because of things that you cannot change about yourself. Space Whale posted:Edit: there's also an ironicat the size of loving Jupiter with challenging one's own assumptions conspicuously ignoring your ideology. You never really question yourself, just what your ideology tells you to question. You should be constantly questioning your world view and ideology, not just everyone else's. I just wanted to say that whilst I do not agree with all of your points I am sorry for what you have gone through.
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Dec 8, 2014 07:41
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Space Whale posted:I've done my own research and reading, I've "shut up" and listened for years, and also spent most of my adult life, a decade, extremely poor. I saw my family die off due to a lack of access to medicine and then fall apart as a result of it all. Throughout all of that time I thought "man, this loving sucks, having food rot in the fridge when the power is off and not being able to do poo poo for my situation. I'll go be a babby socialist and hope society can change." I was into this poo poo when LF was still on SA. I know what many different people think privilege is. It's not a singly defined thing, since it's nebulous to begin with, so I have to ask what any person means by it, since it's so ill defined. That's one of my biggest issues with it. But please pretend I'm just an idiot. Look I really appreciate your post and I actually think it's really helpful. I hope that if you look back at your other posts in this thread that you'll recognize that a lot of the time you're coming off as being extremely dismissive of these ideas without seeming to have spent much time trying to understand them. If you'd lead with a post like the one you just made I think you would have gotten a completely different reaction (or at least you would from me). Perhaps there's been some miscommunication here so far but if you want to reset this discussion and try to move forward in a more productive manner I'd do my best to join you in doing that. It might involve putting SedanChair on ignore though. quote:Needless to say all I got was "just imagine how much worse it would be if you were brown or gay or a woman." No sympathy, no aid, just "you poo poo lord, it's not really bad." Around the time I was recovering from the grief of my last parent leaving my life and this earth, my remaining family all pulling away, I had a black woman tell me how what I went through was awful - but it would be worse if, say, it happened to her, so I should feel bad for her, even though it didn't happen to her. Said woman is a programmer, so she's hardly not doing well. That sounds really awful and all I can really say is that you have my sympathy. Unfortunately people who have faced disadvantages don't necessarily become empathetic themselves and identity politics can easily mutate into tribalism. quote:It finally sunk in when I was finally truly alone in the world that they never gave a poo poo, and I should try to find groups that did. I also realized "oh, I'm not the only person running into these poisonous cess pools of identity politics infected internet-leftie slacktivist tweeting harpy screecher shitheads" and thought about finding other people who actually care about issues but don't want to tear each other apart until only a queer woman of (every) color muslim amputee was left to arbitrate the truth. Those groups can't get anything done. That's the problem. That's the reason that this privielge stuff can mutate into something really angry and unproductive. There's no getting around this fact: the left got smashed to bits forty years ago and never fully recovered. There was a moment in 1968 when a lot of people thought some kind of revolution was going to happen. In Paris it almost did: the centre of Paris was taken over by protesting students and workers, the president of France briefly left the country because he though the government was on the verge of falling. But then the situation stabilized, cracks appeared between the students and workers, and everything fell apart. Then the 1970s rolled around, the economy started going to poo poo, and that set the stage for Thatcher, Reagan, "neoliberalism", "neoconservatism", etc. etc. The final nail in the coffin was the collapse of the Eastern Bloc - as terrible as the Stalinist regimes were, they at least demonstrated that you could have a none capitalist economy that was globally competitive with America - and basically the left was left in utter disaray. The left has yet to recover from that and the result has been, among other things, a lot of bitterness. If you've run into people who use their leftism or their identity politics as an excuse to be bad people then you should shun them. But also please try to recognize that this anger and bitterness comes in a historical context: identity politics didn't cause the left to drive into a ditch, rather the left was defeated and identity politics went from being a useful idea to a full fledged ideology that was plugged into the Marx shaped hole at the centre of the leftist conceptual universe. quote:
Well, like us all you're privileged in some ways but disadvantaged in others. I totally agree that dismissing the pain and deprivation of your working class life is both asinine and cruel and anyone doing it is an rear end in a top hat and most likely a terrible leftist.
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Dec 8, 2014 07:43
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Sharkie posted:
If you grasp for an ism to ist out over so much you're going to take the idiom "gaggle of gooks" into something racist there's really no hope for you. You're looking to score points, period.
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Dec 8, 2014 07:43
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I'm glad you don't have any problems with it, Space Whale. I agree, a lot of hostility seems to be based on a reflexive response on what people think it means. It also reminds me of feminism in that way.Josef bugman posted:So give me things to do to make stuff better for people who are not privileged, don't tell me I am and then just say "well recognise it" I don't want to recognise something if it does precisely jack and poo poo to solve problems for others or myself. Just going "well I am white and reasonably well off" sounds more like something done as "positive affirmation" by wankers than by people trying to help others out. You mean my tape measure doesn't build a house by itself? Sounds like you want to join an anti-racist activist group. Check your local bulletin boards. goatse.cx posted:Care to explain what it is, then, and from whence you drew your definition from? I'll directly quote Peggy Mcintosh, generally considered the founding stalwart and most influential proponent of privilege theory: Discendo Vox posted:No true privilege. More seriously, the problem of privilege theory is that it is prone to the misunderstanding and abuse that I and others in the thread have referred to. Privilege and everything else. Find me a concept used by professionals that's not also misused by amateurs somewhere. Josef bugman posted:So how do I do anything? I work at the lowest rung in an organisation how am I supposed to change things from this perspective? What is privilege supposed to do in that sort of situation. Josef bugman posted:I just wanted to say that whilst I do not agree with all of your points I am sorry for what you have gone through. Both in terms of life and in terms of "Well I could have had it harder" bullshit.
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Dec 8, 2014 07:47
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Presumably everyone doesn't challenge their own ideology, otherwise they wouldn't believe it. It's not like it's possible to live without ideology, even those who think they're above it just don't understand the assumptions behind their own thinking. Regardless Space Whale, I'm sorry that happened to you. But to talk to everyone else: I think what his story demonstrates is that it's impossible to really understand where anyone else is coming from, in their own thinking. Presupposing not only can be disastrous when its wrong, but it's insulting whether or not its right or wrong. They don't understand what they do, but they do it anyway. This kind of pseudo-religious 'look deep inside yourself, to check your own privilege' takes what should be a systemic approach and individualizes it into these weird interpersonal rituals. The fault moves from the system as projected into the individual, to the 'privileged' individual too sinful to give up what they maliciously stole or whatever. It's the same useless liberal garbage behind ideas like 'what if, like, people just stop going to war?', it presupposes that everyone is already in control, and not the subject of something outside them.
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Dec 8, 2014 07:53
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Helsing posted:Well, like us all you're privileged in some ways but disadvantaged in others. I totally agree that dismissing the pain and deprivation of your working class life is both asinine and cruel and anyone doing it is an rear end in a top hat and most likely a terrible leftist. I should have registered with that. But to be blunt, I think the crux of the problem is that most leftists are, in fact, terrible leftists! Most people in it are only in it for themselves. Few people genuinely want a better society for everyone, they want poo poo for themselves, and enemies to blame poo poo on. People individualize systemic problems, and not even on the people at the helm of the institutions that make up the systems. People burn the gently caress out on this. As much as I'm pretty anti-individualist to the point I ruffle feathers with my ideas of "gently caress identity politics. Actually, get rid of identities so we can't fight over them anymore, entirely" I've come to realize that there's a point where the individual does actually matter. Individual shitheads are poo poo heads, even if their group is oppressed; there are corner cases like myself who went through nightmare after nightmare only to get told "gently caress you" when I'd think suffering was enough to commiserate. It turns out I had to have suffered the way they did to be on their team! Leftism can't work unless you take it with the mentality of "we're all in it together." There isn't much of that. "Shut up and do as we say and give us things. We won't even accept you in return, let alone support you back in any way." isn't going to cut it. The fact that people dismiss that as "angry white rant bla bla bla" is troubling. Why would a group want to bother with another that says "give give give, gently caress you, shut up." ? Then there are the bullshit babies with stonewall rahowa riot october revolution fantasies. If that poo poo ever gets too popular I'll pick up the clubs and throw the tear gas myself. The last nail in my moral coffin to make me turn completely nihilistic is if this was all just a convenient way to get resituated before "lions vs hyenas part whatever" starts over again, and it was never about morality or justice. gently caress that, and gently caress them.
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Dec 8, 2014 07:55
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katlington posted:You mean my tape measure doesn't build a house by itself? Sounds like you want to join an anti-racist activist group. Check your local bulletin boards. Yes but that tape measure seems to be being placed on a pedestal and talked about whenever I try and talk to my friends about other issues. Apparently even being sad that one of my friends is cutting us out of her life because she is spending so much time on the internet is "problematic". Also I am in the UK, if there was a bulletin board it would have nothing stuck to it. katlington posted:What were you going to do before? At least now you're less likely to think institutional discrimination wasn't a thing because you were ignorant of the "privileges" available to you. What was anyone going to try and do? Get through the day, chat with my colleagues, try my best to be a good person, get slightly irritated when I am asked where the toilet is for the four hundredth time that day. I try and introduce concepts to my colleagues about leftist thinking, but it is much easier if I talk about wages and other stuff like that and mention other stuff when they come up. katlington posted:Where does this keep coming from? From Space Whales post, but I realised that that last bit wasn't really appropriate, so edited it out, thought about it and realised it sounded a bit dismissive.
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Dec 8, 2014 07:55
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I was under the impression that privilege checking was a thought experiment tool meant to make people consider ways in which they benefit from their backgrounds. Using it as a cudgel, or a method of self-flagellation, does not seem useful or helpful to anyone.
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Dec 8, 2014 07:59
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rudatron posted:Presumably everyone doesn't challenge their own ideology, otherwise they wouldn't believe it. It's not like it's possible to live without ideology, even those who think they're above it just don't understand the assumptions behind their own thinking. You should, especially if you want to critique others. rudatron posted:
rudatron posted:
I've actually spent a great deal of my time going after cults and helping the victims thereof. That poo poo gets under my skin just as bad as a Gilcrease LGAT seminar, albeit in a different way.
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Dec 8, 2014 08:01
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Space Whale posted:So where should people go for belonging, then? Wouldn't there then be "but you're not listening to us!" levied at people forming their own interest group? I would encourage you, sincerely, to find local groups in your area that are addressing problems that you're interested in - gentrification, income inequality, etc. You'll probably feel better (and I don't think that's trivial!) doing work on the local level then with debating people on the internet. Space Whale posted:If you grasp for an ism to ist out over so much you're going to take the idiom "gaggle of gooks" into something racist there's really no hope for you. You're looking to score points, period. I don't know what "grasp for an ism to ist out over" means, but that part in parenthesis is was supposed to be a joke. I assumed you meant "goofs," that it was an obvious typo, and I was just trying to point it out...I can see how my comment came out, though. On the other hand, "gooks" is in fact something racist, so since this is the second time you've made what I'm still going to assume is a typo, you might want to be more careful about it in the future!
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Dec 8, 2014 08:01
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Josef bugman posted:So how do I do anything? I work at the lowest rung in an organisation how am I supposed to change things from this perspective? You won't be there forever. Besides, having anguish and thinking "but what can I do?" is literally the first step on the path my son 
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Dec 8, 2014 08:05
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paranoid randroid posted:I was under the impression that privilege checking was a thought experiment tool meant to make people consider ways in which they benefit from their backgrounds. Using it as a cudgel, or a method of self-flagellation, does not seem useful or helpful to anyone. "bla bla bla if you disagree with the CORRECT OPINIONS about NEWS ISSUE you're racist, and it's totally subconscious and in your head and bla bla bla, I feel so helpless talking about race because I'm white" - paraphrased poo poo from my news feed. Yes, any divergence from groupthink is either insidious subconscious poo poo or a need to go "I'm mentally broken about race." Sharkie posted:On the other hand, "gooks" is in fact something racist, so since this is the second time you've made what I'm still going to assume is a typo, you might want to be more careful about it in the future! Rape is bad, grape is a fruit with rape as the last 4 letters. Slope is racist, and a concept of geometry and topology. Gook is racist. Gaggle of gooks is a loving alliteration. This kind of poo poo I really don't give an iota of a gently caress about anymore. Don't waste your time.
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Dec 8, 2014 08:07
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Sorry about your friends, Josef Bugman.paranoid randroid posted:I was under the impression that privilege checking was a thought experiment tool meant to make people consider ways in which they benefit from their backgrounds. Using it as a cudgel, or a method of self-flagellation, does not seem useful or helpful to anyone. Holy poo poo you put it so much better than I did.
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Dec 8, 2014 08:18
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katlington posted:It doesn't say you can only learn about it by listening to personal anecdotes from somebody nor does it say you're forever cursed by your whiteness or w/e Since privileges are conferred on the basis of immutable traits like race, gender and sexuality, and since privileges manifest mostly in the form of unconscious bias, it follows that renouncing privilege is impossible, since you cannot choose to stop being the beneficiary of, say, racism if you're white. This is accepted amongst most academic privilege theorists. Michael Kimmel, 'Privilege, A Reader' posted:Occasionally, someone is moved by that guilt to attempt to renounce his or her privilege.[..] Though noble in their intention, however, this posture of guilty self-negation cannot be privileged people's final destination as we come to understand how we are privileged by race, class, gender, and sexuality. Refusing to be men, white, or straight does neither the privileged nor the unprivileged much good. One can no more renounce privilege than one can stop breathing, It is in the air we breathe. Again, since you seem to have your own idea of what Privilege theory really meant, I and as I am sure others in the thread would be curious to hear it. quote:nor does it talk about any "end goals" of privilege. goatse.cx fucked around with this message at 08:23 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 08:19
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You admit you're reading things into it when you say it's implied. All I can suggest is reading things at face value, without trying to discern a hidden implied meaning.
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Dec 8, 2014 09:06
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rudatron posted:This is true, but not complete, I'm going to take it one further and say that privilege theory simply is not itself useful for changing society. As a post-modern mode of thought, it has a phobia and disgust towards a kind of thought that has an overarching narrative. Rather, it simply attempts to deconstruct something. So take the talk about intersectionality in the feminist movement. The claim is that white women were marginalizing queer women or women of color. Under the intersectionality lens, the other modes of oppression need to be taken into account. But intersectionaliy does not itself claim how this should be done. What does take into account mean, and how do you know if you've taken it into account enough? I'll propose that that rituals are there to fix an internal problem. They're useful. Just not in the policy domain. They seem tailored for an audience that feels powerless and wants tools to verbally assert themselves. 'Mansplaining,' for instance, is a fully general counter argument. Any possible response just proves that the person was mansplaining all along. The same is true with privilege arguments. Like you say, it's impossible for the listener to know if they've checked their privilege sufficiently. But that seems like the point.
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Dec 8, 2014 09:12
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katlington posted:Privilege and everything else. Find me a concept used by professionals that's not also misused by amateurs somewhere. It's a matter of degree and relative harm/benefit. To repeat, privilege is more prone to abuse and harmful application because it frames the issue individually and invites rhetorical invocation in a conflict setting.
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Dec 8, 2014 09:38
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Gantolandon posted:"Here's why you really should sleep with me to be a good feminist!" - an LF goon discovering importance of intersectionality. The possibility of anyone saying what you put in quotes is exactly why I said that utterly thorough egalitarianism WASN'T desirable. Mortley fucked around with this message at 09:55 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 09:41
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Discendo Vox posted:To repeat, privilege is more prone to abuse and harmful application because it frames the issue individually and invites rhetorical invocation in a conflict setting. Above and beyond that, it's also a great source of confusion simply because a word for a politically-relevant concept in everyday speach is reused for an academic concept that has only a small overlap with the everyday definition. You would struggle to write a sentence that simply meant the same thing under both definitions, let alone had the same implications. It's like instead of the words 'air' and 'oxygen' there was 'air' and 'air, when used by scientists'. In everyday language, it makes sense to talk about privileges being given up under social change, as MLK did. A business owner loses the privilege of selecting their customers, and has restrictions on their privilege of selecting their employees. A cop loses the privilege of always being believed after they shoot someone. But those were the privileges of a small elite; the equivalent of slave-owners, not non-slaves. So that usage of privelege is directly contradictory to the acadamic idea that privilege is universal and unavoidable; the comparison with original sin is pretty much on the ball. You can imagine social change that does take meaningful privileges away from everyone, or a large majority; such a change would require a _lot_ of careful justification to count as a good idea. Certainly, given that a small minority of people hold almost all the power, any change that is not focused on the privileges of that minority is almost certainly misdirected. and an academic one
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Dec 8, 2014 10:57
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Sharkie posted:"Why didn't MLK stand up for the rights of white guys, too? How could he expect to get anywhere unless he addressed the problems of the majority of white society?" So you quote a passage from Letter from a Birmingham Jail in which King talks about how asking individuals to give up their privilege is an ineffective remedy because privilege arises from and exists between groups, and also manage to completely ignore the Poor People's Campaign.
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Dec 8, 2014 12:22
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The Insect Court posted:So you quote a passage from Letter from a Birmingham Jail in which King talks about how asking individuals to give up their privilege is an ineffective remedy because privilege arises from and exists between groups, and also manage to completely ignore the Poor People's Campaign. Was going to say something similar in a really clumsy annoyed way but went and got a beer instead. What is most annoying is when people say "hey I think you just do not understand or are resistant to new ideas" Same ideas, same program you just make it about me and i'm sick of thinking about me and my place in the world and half the things are not exactly privileges but stuff everyone should have and am willing to fight for but thinking about this poo poo in this way is so annoying and silly and back where I started thinking abut this stuff a long time ago with no new insights that I want to stop getting involved or having conversations with people who do not understand that this is not a new way of looking at things.
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Dec 8, 2014 12:32
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sausage eyes posted:Same ideas, same program you just make it about me and i'm sick of thinking about me and my place in the world This is it in a nutshell. It's good and progress to see people cop out like this and look weak, over and over again.
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Dec 8, 2014 12:35
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The Insect Court posted:So you quote a passage from Letter from a Birmingham Jail in which King talks about how asking individuals to give up their privilege is an ineffective remedy because privilege arises from and exists between groups, and also manage to completely ignore the Poor People's Campaign. Expecting people to "give up" their privileges at all when confronted with them is exactly the opposite of what privilege theory prescribes, actually.
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Dec 8, 2014 12:39
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SedanChair posted:This is it in a nutshell. It's good and progress to see people cop out like this and look weak, over and over again. Weakness is human, nutshell is what you should suck on before I have a shower. Seriously though it is creepy cult poo poo to want people to look within themselves and get rid of any privilege holding ideas. This is the same stuff that helped me get into left politics. Then it was "hey watch this doco about minorities" from a cool teacher or older person. You watch it and see that people different from you have different experiences at the supermarket or whatever. Then everyone chats about it and talks about how it is bullshit and you go home and think on it and start reading. Now I get dumb people asking me to check my privilege after I have just been volunteering my time for minority causes or reading a book or whatever the gently caress. I get it...I also want to have a nice life and not have to think about how poo poo people have it or how awesome I have it everyday. ( Hint: most of the time I do not anyway) I went to a few sites to try and read up to see if I had it wrong. No...one lady talks about how she struggles dealing with her privilege every day and that is ok. No it is loving not, she will burn out and this is really creepy bullshit that goes nowhere. sausage eyes fucked around with this message at 13:09 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 12:48
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A straight white guy (or gal, in the case of the early feminist movement) telling black people and gay people to wait their turn, that they're going to be off-putting to the masses who otherwise yearn for a leftist revolution, that hey just because I'm a straight white guy I don't have any advantages over you and am oppressed in all the same ways you are is...sausage eyes posted:not a new way of looking at things. sausage eyes posted:Seriously though it is creepy cult poo poo to want people to look within themselves and get rid of any privilege holding ideas. Seriously you don't understand it. The concept of privilege is an analytical tool for understanding how different people benefit from systemic oppression. That's it. You're supposed to take that knowledge and use it to work against systemic oppression. Saying things like "get rid of any privilege holding ideas" makes you sound like you don't know what you're talking about.
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Dec 8, 2014 13:43
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Sharkie posted:A straight white guy (or gal, in the case of the early feminist movement) telling black people and gay people to wait their turn, that they're going to be off-putting to the masses who otherwise yearn for a leftist revolution, that hey just because I'm a straight white guy I don't have any advantages over you and am oppressed in all the same ways you are is... Yeah you are right.Just the special way you explained it made me realize. I think next election I am going to vote different and try and be a feminist.
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Dec 8, 2014 13:56
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sausage eyes posted:Yeah you are right.Just the special way you explained it made me realize. I think next election I am going to vote different and try and be a feminist. I guess you'll get "sick" of thinking of all the ways you have it better than women.
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Dec 8, 2014 14:13
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Problem is feeling like poo poo and not getting help from whatever theory you're trying to work with is not a good recipe for success. When everything about this poo poo pushes away the majority of people interested or fucks them over it's not good enough.
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Dec 8, 2014 14:51
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Space Whale posted:Rape is bad, grape is a fruit with rape as the last 4 letters. "Nest of niggers" is alliteration too. Is there another definition I don't know about for gook or are you really using 'poetry' as an excuse to use slurs? gently caress this guy. "GUYS I REALLY CARE ABOUT ACTING LIKE I CARE BUT WHATS THE BIG DEAL IF I USE SLURS?"
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Dec 8, 2014 15:35
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