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SedanChair posted:This is it in a nutshell. It's good and progress to see people cop out like this and look weak, over and over again. You should really think about why you frame morality in such strongly masculinzed terms.
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Dec 8, 2014 16:29
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Nevvy Z posted:"Nest of niggers" is alliteration too. Is there another definition I don't know about for gook or are you really using 'poetry' as an excuse to use slurs? We need an emote of a squirrel leaping on a peanut for when a "Oooohhhhhh I got you I'm telling!!!" Derail happens like this. That or maybe Phoenix Wright or the trap card kid? You sure told me with that adhom.
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Dec 8, 2014 16:30
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hepatizon posted:You should really think about why you frame morality in such strongly masculinzed terms. Self righteousness is still seated in the lurking spectre of patriarchy within his reptilian brain.
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Dec 8, 2014 16:31
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Also nutshell is an amazing song by Alice in Chains not a sucking thing.
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Dec 8, 2014 16:32
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Leftists don't get it, now lemme pretend non-leftists get it!
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Dec 8, 2014 16:34
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Nonsense posted:Leftists don't get it, now lemme pretend non-leftists get it! South Park did a brilliant take on this. The literally named Token black kid was mad at attempts for sympathy and being told "I get it" from Stan, a white kid, because his father said friend of the family on t.v. When Stan says "I get it - I don't get it." Everything is okay. 
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Dec 8, 2014 16:38
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OK, to sum the last page up: 1. Privilege is a very important concept and definitely not broken, even if very frequently misused as a cudgel. Nothing is wrong here, move along. 2. People who criticized the concept got it all wrong. We won't deign to tell you why, it's your job to educate yourselves and defend our position for us. 3. Why are you so interested in criticizing our theory if not to hinder our efforts? Who are you to tell us we are wrong? CHECK YOUR PRIVILEGE WHITE CIS SCUM!!! I expected this won't be so overt in the topic about an essay that describes and criticizes exactly this behavior, but can't say I'm very surprised.
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Dec 8, 2014 17:13
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I don't think privileges are something that can be easily "given up" ('cept maybe, idk, "wealth privilege"?). So if an indignant tumblrista demands you do that, you can probably safely ignore them as they don't know gently caress all about privilege theory themselves. Not beyond the "some people have it, others don't" level anyway. Isn't privilege, as far as theory goes, typically assigned to a person by society at large, and not something they control?
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Dec 8, 2014 17:25
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I don't even know what the gently caress anyone is arguing for anymore but I'm pretty sure if I heard someone say "gaggle of gooks" in real life I would be kind of shocked unless they were like 60+ years old. poo poo's racist yo.
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Dec 8, 2014 17:29
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Space Whale posted:We need an emote of a squirrel leaping on a peanut for when a "Oooohhhhhh I got you I'm telling!!!" Derail happens like this. Ad hom is only a falacy when it's not relevant to a discussion. Similar to the word derail actually. Your inability to understand why you shouldn't use that phrase is highly relevant to this discussion.
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Dec 8, 2014 17:34
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The only true privilege is wealth.
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Dec 8, 2014 17:42
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murphyslaw posted:I don't think privileges are something that can be easily "given up" ('cept maybe, idk, "wealth privilege"?). So if an indignant tumblrista demands you do that, you can probably safely ignore them as they don't know gently caress all about privilege theory themselves. Not beyond the "some people have it, others don't" level anyway. Correct. That's why privilege is such an insidious thing. Demanding its relinquishment is equivalent to demanding that you get savagely beaten by cops or become voluntarily unemployed with no support system. Everyone should have the privileges of safely interacting with the police and a stable source of livable income. From last page, just noticed it: goatse.cx posted:I know! That's precisely the problem! Privilege theory prescribes no goal nor plan to combat inequality systematically. It is absolutely useless and actively harmful to unity and cohesion. But it does, and this refocuses back into the topic in the OP. Privilege theory makes it unequivocally clear that minority voices and perspectives need to be empowered if we're well-meaning about progress and solidarity. "Universal" analyses often inadvertently create action which disproportionately benefits majority groups. That's what "checking your privilege" meant— having the consciousness necessary to realize that your own perspective is insufficient for understanding the lived experiences of oppressed people. Ormi fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 17:47
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Bonus points to the thread for the people seriously delusional enough to believe MLK's efforts to reach the better natures of the 'privileged' and motivate them to become better people in any way compare to radical 'If we call them all Shitlords enough they'll change everything to the way we like it' approach.
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Dec 8, 2014 18:22
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Here for an argument huh? Sorry, this is abuse.
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Dec 8, 2014 18:37
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Nevvy Z posted:Ad hom is only a falacy when it's not relevant to a discussion. Similar to the word derail actually. Your inability to understand why you shouldn't use that phrase is highly relevant to this discussion. I completely understand your logic and reasoning. I think it's bullshit. I'm not a kid being scolded or someone arguing over anything remotely objective. Don't present it as such.
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Dec 8, 2014 18:39
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The Snark posted:Bonus points to the thread for the people seriously delusional enough to believe MLK's efforts to reach the better natures of the 'privileged' and motivate them to become better people in any way compare to radical 'If we call them all Shitlords enough they'll change everything to the way we like it' approach. I hate that these people make an argument that I say they are making. GRrrrrr.
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Dec 8, 2014 18:42
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UP AND ADAM posted:I hate that these people make an argument that I say they are making. GRrrrrr. Radicals are just like MLK, how dare you tarnish my comparison of my noble deeds to his! (On a more serious note I will grant I am guilty in my previous post of reducing other arguments to a strawman. That was bad. But there really IS no comparison. He killed 'em with kindness in the sense 'an enemy made friend is an enemy no more' a lot of people here seem to forget that second part in favor of shrill righteous indignation. Could still learn something from Mr. King.)
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Dec 8, 2014 18:50
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Space Whale posted:I completely understand your logic and reasoning. I think it's bullshit. I'm not presenting it as that. I'm pointing out that you having no interest in engaging in any real discourse. You drop a phrase like the super popular and common "gaggle of gooks" idiom, which google can only find 101 results for, and then say this: Space Whale posted:Rape is bad, grape is a fruit with rape as the last 4 letters. You don't give a poo poo about discussion or privelege you just want to bitch about leftists while casually dropping slurs so you can then play the upstanding citizen being harassed by the PC police when called on it. Or you genuinely believe what you said in the post I quoted above and you are beyond the ability to look at yourself critically at all. Either way everyone in this thread would be best served by putting you on ignore. You might have well said someone was trying to "Jew me out of my money." Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 19:05
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hepatizon posted:You should really think about why you frame morality in such strongly masculinzed terms. Looks like you're the problem for assuming strength is masculine. Space Whale posted:Sorry, this is abuse. You're worth it! Never stop telling yourself that.
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Dec 8, 2014 19:07
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The phrase "cop out" is offensive to the many upstading officers who have died defending civillians.
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Dec 8, 2014 19:09
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Space Whale posted:I completely understand your logic and reasoning. I think it's bullshit. Apparently you are, because the adult thing to say would be "You're right, gook is a racial slur and I probably shouldn't use it" rather than digging your heels in like an obstinate pre-teen arguing with his mother.
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Dec 8, 2014 19:10
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Guys prejudice is real and has real effects and I have certainly perpetuated it actively by strolling around blurting out "gook" but it's important that you change your approach because I am feeling very sensitive and under attack right now
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Dec 8, 2014 19:17
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Space Whale posted:I completely understand your logic and reasoning. I think it's bullshit. I respect your efforts to encourage a more rational approach to progressive issues that might actually result in positive change rather than just excessively trying the patience of those willing to listen, but trying to defend the use of the term 'gooks' locks you down into a silly and indefensible position. So you could have chosen your words better! No one's perfect. Meanwhile some of these goons are getting aroused over finally maybe sort of seeing a racist in their midst, on whom it would be open season to work out their frustrations on. (I don't believe you are one any more than everyone else in the thread, for the record. Just frustrated.) The Snark fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 19:23
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Ormi posted:But it does, and this refocuses back into the topic in the OP. Privilege theory makes it unequivocally clear that minority voices and perspectives need to be empowered if we're well-meaning about progress and solidarity. "Universal" analyses often inadvertently create action which disproportionately benefits majority groups. That's what "checking your privilege" meant— having the consciousness necessary to realize that your own perspective is insufficient for understanding the lived experiences of oppressed people. To what end is all this being done? Framed this way it sounds like the whole point, to put it in vulgar terms, is to make the disempowered individual feel good about themselves. That's not terrible, but in the grand scheme it seems about as important as privileged folk feeling bad about their privilege. I.E. useless for concrete change
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Dec 8, 2014 19:39
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SedanChair posted:Looks like you're the problem for assuming strength is masculine. Why is strength good?
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Dec 8, 2014 19:44
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Debate & Discussion: Problematizing Pony Privilege
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Dec 8, 2014 19:45
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The Snark posted:I respect your efforts to encourage a more rational approach to progressive issues that might actually result in positive change rather than just excessively trying the patience of those willing to listen, but trying to defend the use of the term 'gooks' locks you down into a silly and indefensible position. So you could have chosen your words better! No one's perfect. The point is that it's about making someone backpedal and using the sight against them indefinitely, or to drag it up whenever they please, or need it. I'm not advocating racism. I'm also not stupid. Apology just results in chumming the water, and they focus on tearing someone down for the slight and don't bother with anything else. It's a shut down. It's chaff. It's running interference. I'm not going to just let everything derail without pointing it out, since its an example of the nonsense I'm sick of. I'm not a whipping boy. Address that poo poo in a p.m. and leave the thread to the actual subject matter. I do like how slope is still o.k. though.
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Dec 8, 2014 20:00
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Space Whale posted:The point is that it's about making someone backpedal and using the sight against them indefinitely, or to drag it up whenever they please, or need it. Gook and slope are both not okay and you should stops saying them, and also stop whining when people note that you should stop saying gook, you mook.
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Dec 8, 2014 20:07
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Obdicut posted:Gook and slope are both not okay and you should stops saying them, and also stop whining when people note that you should stop saying gook, you mook. So from now on we say "rise over run" where we would say "s___e"? Or derivative? Grade? Or is context actually relevant?  Gosh it's almost like the idiomatic phrase "gaggle of gooks" is totally distinct from "g__k" in isolation, or something!
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Dec 8, 2014 20:09
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Space Whale posted:The point is that it's about making someone backpedal and using the sight against them indefinitely, or to drag it up whenever they please, or need it. Alas, I did not edit in time to be clear. You're giving the impression that this gets to you. That, I fear, is chumming the water a lot more than saying 'Yeah I goofed.' Besides, I do appreciate something this derail brought up. I've never heard slope being used as anything but as describing an incline. Gook, however, I have never heard in any other context. Not that I've heard it very often anyway. The sort of word I'd expect to hear used only by someone's stubborn WW2 Vet Granpappy.
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Dec 8, 2014 20:12
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Space Whale posted:So from now on we say "rise over run" where we would say "s___e"? Or derivative? Grade? No, slope isn't okay to use as an insult. That's why 'gaggle of gooks' is lovely, because 'gook' only has one common meaning, and that's a racial slur. How can you not be comprehending this? Are you just pretending that 'gaggle of gooks' is an actual idom? Because it's not.
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Dec 8, 2014 20:13
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Space Whale posted:Gosh it's almost like the idiomatic phrase "gaggle of gooks" is totally distinct from "g__k" in isolation, or something! I know Space Whale is trolling, so this is more addressed to the lurkers who are reading along at home. There's no context in which saying gook is cool. Don't say it.
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Dec 8, 2014 20:13
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GD6qtc2_AQA
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Dec 8, 2014 20:15
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Space Whale posted:The point is that it's about making someone backpedal and using the sight against them indefinitely, or to drag it up whenever they please, or need it. If you don't want to be brought to task then either admit your mistakes or better yet don't use racial slurs at all for any reason. "Gaggle of gooks" is not, nor will it ever be, a real idiom, by the way.
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Dec 8, 2014 20:17
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Obdicut posted:No, slope isn't okay to use as an insult. That's why 'gaggle of gooks' is lovely, because 'gook' only has one common meaning, and that's a racial slur. Unless I'm mistaken, it's just an alliteration for "collection of things" like "mob of mooks" as a nonsense word. Then there was a Korean war and Gook became an insult, and to say "gook" in isolation is to be clearly racist. Did it only exist as a racist term in the first place and then got normalized to the point I heard it growing up without any obvious racist connotations?
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Dec 8, 2014 20:20
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Space Whale posted:Gosh it's almost like the idiomatic phrase "gaggle of gooks" is totally distinct from "g__k" in isolation, or something! It's not an idiomatic phrase, what the gently caress is wrong with you? Are you thinking of "gaggle of geese"?
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Dec 8, 2014 20:22
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Who What Now posted:If you don't want to be brought to task then either admit your mistakes or better yet don't use racial slurs at all for any reason. If every little slight wasn't a trumpet call for the piranhas to come take a bite out of someone, and the person making the slight didn't have to always and forever be "that *-ist person" I'd be more inclined to play ball. Instead I've seen that when someone is apologetic it's like blood in the water, and that's stupid. That's just fanning the flames of "let's derail into beating someone up for a while" and then there's a long term, if not indefinite, period where the person who made the slight is just a whipping-person, unless they wise up and leave for greener pastures. Notice the thread changing any there, buddy?
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Dec 8, 2014 20:22
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hepatizon posted:Why is strength good? Are you really asking me why strength of character is good?
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Dec 8, 2014 20:24
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hepatizon posted:It's not an idiomatic phrase, what the gently caress is wrong with you? It sure was growing up in my experience. I didn't learn "gook" was a mutation of a Korean term which was a racist slur against southeast Asians until I was in my teens, and only then, it was a term used in isolation or a specific context. If you've got a reference that's a bit more specific than "we say so" and "stop questioning us, you privilege haver with your ism problems, you ist" I'm all ears. hepatizon posted:Are you thinking of "gaggle of geese"? I was thinking of an idiomatic g-consonant rhyming alliteration, for gently caress's sake. Flock of fuckers, happy? Space Whale fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 20:24
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Space Whale posted:It sure was growing up in my experience. I didn't learn "gook" was a mutation of a Korean term which was a racist slur against southeast Asians until I was in my teens, and only then, it was a term used in isolation or a specific context. Here's your reference -- all 101 occurrences of "gaggle of gooks" on the public internet, and they all look pretty racist. Feel free to provide a reference of your own, but right now you sound like my racist-rear end grandmother saying that it wasn't at all a problem to call brazil nuts "friend of the family toes". Space Whale posted:Flock of fuckers, happy? If that's an implicit concession that "gaggle of gooks" is kinda hosed up, then sure. The ability to admit when you're wrong is kinda critical to dialogue!
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Dec 8, 2014 20:30
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