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Paramemetic
Sep 29, 2003

Area 51. You heard of it, right?





Fallen Rib
In a Tibetan book on meditation, "Shamatha to Mahamudra," it straight up suggests "strong Chinese tea" for when you're sinking or nodding off in meditation.

Re: Boston: there's a center there Drikung Meditation Center which is the seat of the US Jowo Rinpoche, an exact replica and "spiritual emanation" of the Jowo Rinpoche (lit. "Precious Statue"), one of Tibet's most popular pilgrimage sites, believed to plant a liberation seed by merely seeing it. It's in Arlington, near Boston, and the monk who directs the center is a friend of mine and an awesome dude. I'd strongly recommend visiting if you're ever in the area or just passing through. They serve tea and let people basically just chill out with the statue by appointment and on certain days. They also rent some rooms in the form of a kind of dharma collective is my understanding.

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Impermanent
Apr 1, 2010
I can get behind any religion that recognizes the value of caffeine. Truly, I now understand right-view.

Max
Nov 30, 2002

The Dark Wind posted:

If you're in Boston, I would seriously recommend you also at least give the Shambhala center there a look. They have endured controversy in the past, but the current head is Sakyong Mipham, who's a very level-headed and likeable guy, and the centers are full of some really warm and loving people who REALLY know their dharma. If anything, they have a really strong infrastructure to support both new and more experienced meditators, which is something I've always appreciated. If the stigmas of the past is too much of a deterrent, that's totally understandable, but the center there is where I got my start and I can't speak highly enough about it, it honestly changed my life for the better.

Boston Shambhala folk are cool. You should also check out the Trident Booksellers and Cafe. The owners were/are pretty involved with Shambhala and the store has a lot of resources you might be interested in. Also, it has good food.

Dr.Caligari
May 5, 2005

"Here's a big, beautiful avatar for someone"

RedTonic posted:

This part is pretty curious to me, though. Why the restriction after noon? Is this a fasting period or is there a different rationalization provided? Is this common across all major traditions? I'm remotely familiar with temple cuisine, as it were, but the setting around it is unfamiliar.

When this rule was wrote, monks had to rely on the kindness of the townspeople to feed them, so by only eating in the morning they were limiting the amount of stress they may have been putting onto the ones that fed them.

Crack
Apr 10, 2009

Dr.Caligari posted:

When this rule was wrote, monks had to rely on the kindness of the townspeople to feed them, so by only eating in the morning they were limiting the amount of stress they may have been putting onto the ones that fed them.

Isn't this still the case? I guess it depends on the specific school, but I'm sure monks still get food from people in the morning in places like Thailand. I"m pretty sure they aren't allowed to handle money.

People Stew
Dec 5, 2003

Crack posted:

Isn't this still the case? I guess it depends on the specific school, but I'm sure monks still get food from people in the morning in places like Thailand. I"m pretty sure they aren't allowed to handle money.

This is still the rule in any Theravada monasteries where monks follow the Vinaya in any strict sense. The Vinaya is the monastic code which lays out the rules that monks must follow. This is where rules like the prohibition from handling money and not eating after noon come from. Various schools have various degrees of adherence to Vinaya, and there are a few different versions of the Vinaya that arose either at the time of the Buddha, or shortly after.

When thai forest monks visit Portland, they do sometimes go on almsround of a sort, visiting a few thai restaurants. Sometimes the Thai community will bring food to the center and donate that way. It depends on the geography. We have monks in a forest hermitage about an hour from Portland, so they have some kind of steward who provides meals for them in the morning. There are often two meals - a very early (like 5-6am) breakfast, and then a lunch later in the morning, so it isn't too terrible. On meditation retreat, laypeople will often take an additional 3 precepts, one of which is abstaining from food after noon.


The Thai forest tradition tends to be pretty strict on the rules, so you won't see monks handling money, socializing with the opposite sex without an attendant, eating after noon, etc. There are other Theravada monasteries I have heard of where monks will watch sports, have debit cards, that kind of thing, so it isn't an absolute. And other traditions have different versions of the monastic rules. I think the First Buddhist Council was actually organized due to a dispute over monastic rules, so they have been a point of debate since the beginning.

The Bhikkhu's rules has a pretty good writeup of the Vinaya from a Theravada standpoint.

People Stew fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Dec 3, 2014

POOL IS CLOSED
Jul 14, 2011

I'm just exploding with mackerel. This is the aji wo kutta of my discontent.
Pillbug

Dr.Caligari posted:

When this rule was wrote, monks had to rely on the kindness of the townspeople to feed them, so by only eating in the morning they were limiting the amount of stress they may have been putting onto the ones that fed them.

Ah, that is pretty sensible and an angle that didn't occur to me at all.

Thanks for the link, Prickly Pete!

Mr. Mambold
Feb 13, 2011

Aha. Nice post.



Friendly Tumour posted:

hello!

Does Buddhism say that I shouldn't take acid?

It says to follow the light.

Marmalade Marinade
Feb 20, 2013
Inside tank of fuel is not fuel but love,
Above us, there is nothing above
But the stars above.
I read a bit of Osho's "Book of Secrets", and I remember him talking about how Tantra works with non-dualistic beliefs. This doesn't seem to be the case with most (all?) branches of Buddhism, or am I mistaken?

People Stew
Dec 5, 2003

Tantra works best when you poison the people who disagree with you.

Paramemetic
Sep 29, 2003

Area 51. You heard of it, right?





Fallen Rib

Marmalade Marinade posted:

I read a bit of Osho's "Book of Secrets", and I remember him talking about how Tantra works with non-dualistic beliefs. This doesn't seem to be the case with most (all?) branches of Buddhism, or am I mistaken?

I don't know any thing about Osho, I think he's not well regarded here but that's neither here nor there. With regard to non-dualistic beliefs, that is a thing of (some?) tantras. In general tantra is comprised of a generation stage, where one establishes a concept of non-duality through establishing a visualization field which is believed to be as equally real as whatever physical field. This physical world and conceptual world are more or less equivalent in that both are just arising awareness, just arising senses or concepts or whatnot. With regards to an actual physical world, I have no access to such a thing, just experiences of it. Experience is mind alone, bright lights, loud noises, touches, tastes, smells, these are all just arisen experience, without inherent existence. So too are visualizations, concepts, dreams. So tantra is very much about using this to bring about rigpa or mahamudra, at least some of the time. My limited understanding of the nature of the "generation stage" of tantra is that it is meant to help establish this equivalency. But I don't know much.


Prickly Pete posted:

Tantra works best when you poison the people who disagree with you.

Tantra works best when you're immune to poison because of your realization :v:

People Stew
Dec 5, 2003

as a disclaimer, I know nothing about Tantra, or Osho really, aside from the poisoning thing and the affinity for Rolls-Royce.

Paramemetic
Sep 29, 2003

Area 51. You heard of it, right?





Fallen Rib

Prickly Pete posted:

as a disclaimer, I know nothing about Tantra, or Osho really, aside from the poisoning thing and the affinity for Rolls-Royce.

Ah, I didn't realize that was about Osho. I don't know anything about him aside from those same things but I don't care to denounce a dude or whatever, other people have done that plenty, I just wanted to address tantra.

I actually read something pretty useful about tantra today at some point but I cannot find it. :(

People Stew
Dec 5, 2003

Paramemetic posted:

Ah, I didn't realize that was about Osho. I don't know anything about him aside from those same things but I don't care to denounce a dude or whatever, other people have done that plenty, I just wanted to address tantra.

I actually read something pretty useful about tantra today at some point but I cannot find it. :(

I was just making a dumb joke. I'm sure he had some helpful teachings to some people. If you find that Tantra thing I'd like to take a peek. I hear the term come up enough that I'd like to have a little more understanding of it.

Paramemetic
Sep 29, 2003

Area 51. You heard of it, right?





Fallen Rib
Tantra is basically referring to the vast majority of Vajrayana beyond the Ngondro. It more or less refers to initiatic ritual systems with formalized lineages and largely mystic meditation systems. So as a broad term it's more or less impossible to avoid within Tibetan Buddhism. I am not a scholar of it but I can attempt to write something more technical later at work. Berzin Archives would be a good place to start learning what is tantra just because it is a scholarly study of basically that.

Jupiter Jazz
Jan 13, 2007

by sebmojo
What is it about Buddhism that attracts people who dropped acid or did shrooms that one time and want to experience the "ultimate reality" through Buddhism? Nothing wrong with it, but is there something I'm missing?

People Stew
Dec 5, 2003

Himuro posted:

What is it about Buddhism that attracts people who dropped acid or did shrooms that one time and want to experience the "ultimate reality" through Buddhism? Nothing wrong with it, but is there something I'm missing?

I think some of the realizations you can have while under the influence of psychedelics are in line with the Buddha's take on reality: All things are impermanent and constantly in a state of flux. There is no "real" or substantial identity to any conditioned thing aside from our conventional labels which we use to allow us to communicate. I certainly had those thoughts while intoxicated, specifically on LSD, and they seemed really profound and meaningful.

I think finding that they are central to a very old religious tradition kind of validates the experience to some degree. The insights one can have on psychedelics can be a good stepping stone to getting someone on the right path, but I think people often mistake those realizations for actual progress on the path to ending suffering.

Paramemetic
Sep 29, 2003

Area 51. You heard of it, right?





Fallen Rib
The core takeaway thing from psychedelics for most legitimate "psychonauts," as opposed to garden variety drug users, is the revelation that reality is not contingent on the physical facts of things but on perception of them. That we can profoundly change our experience of the world by manipulating the internal rather than the external, and that experience is more meaningful than material fact when it comes to reality. So a lot of people who have done psychedelics of the more exploratory variety find a lot of similar revelations in Buddhism. They also tend to be spiritual but not necessarily religious, which helps. That is, a lot of them believe in something because of their experiences with the profound, but they also tend to shy away from the main Western religions because of their experiences with them, at least in the US, and their tie in with conservativism.

I do know a few people who I think unfortunately may be off target in their search for profundity in Buddhism because they think enlightened mind is identical to mind on LSD or DMT or whatnot. Maybe it is, I certainly couldn't tell you, but I think if you're looking for that particular experience in Buddhism, you're grasping after still conceptual things rather than embracing non-duality and so on. So yeah.

Perpetual Hiatus
Oct 29, 2011

I was wondering what your personal takes would be on deeper understandings of simple concepts, ie when you understand things at another layer of your mental/physical/emotional makeup... I feel like there are certain understandings I had to earn to understand, that may only be valid for my own subjective experience but resonate deeply with me. If I am attracted to those lenses then I am attached to my understanding of the world through that lense/frame which interferes with perceiving the world underneath that, but at the same time they are useful tools for not becoming attached to other thoughts or modes of consciousness. What are your thoughts on that situation? I should note I am not a proper buddhist I do find a lot of the tools very useful and beautiful tho in exploring the world and myself/not

Ugrok
Dec 30, 2009
Hello !

Well, in zen buddhism at least (others will certainly offer you another perspective), all these questions are not really important. There is no hierarchy between mental states or perceptions, nothing to reject, and nothing to look for. There is no "world underneath" your conceptions. Your conceptions ARE the "world underneath" as much as anything else. So there is no need to try to change how you see the world. To put it in your words, the lense through which you see the world, and the world itself, are not distinct things. So theres no need to try to change the lense. The lense is not the problem. A lot of human problems stop when you understand that looking for a solution IS your problem.

When you really understand that you don't have to perceive the world a certain way, or be a certain way, when this stuff is of no more interest to you, then paradoxically, you stop being attached to any way, and you find yours, which is total freedom. To realize this you have to practice. Practice is not about exploring the world or knowing yourself or whatever. It's just about practicing.

This is why i think it is a mistake for people who take lsd to run after incredible meditative experiences. The fact that their drug experiences appear to them as completeley mind boggling and incredible shows how attached they are to their usual view of themselves and the world. Which is a good reason to begin practicing buddhism in my opinion, but it is not why they come to it in the first place, and what they will discover is really not what they would have thought.

Ugrok fucked around with this message at 15:22 on Dec 4, 2014

Jupiter Jazz
Jan 13, 2007

by sebmojo
I'm angry all the time over the past few weeks watching the trajectory of the United States. As a black American it scares me how little this nation cares for us. The amount of police brutality booming makes me fear my family's future. I cannot get over the anger that tells me that black lives don't matter. I'm working on a two way street. On one hand, my compassion pains me because it's treating an entire group - one I'm a part of - as less than human. On the other, this compassion is driving me to duhkka.

It's getting a point where I'm taking my anger out on people I like and I'm losing compassion for everything. It's turning me into a fairly miserable person. But I can't let it go and it won't go away. I'm usually highly empathetic. Meditation and buddhism have helped me to become a better person, and while I realize that's not the inherent point, it was a nice bonus feature. But here I am incapable of applying everything I learned and it's hurting me and people I love. It honestly scares me. I know it won't be this way forever but I'm losing patience. I tried to talk to my abbot at my zen center this past week and they're having a(nother) sesshin. I swear they have a sesshin every month, good lord. I feel like I have no one to run to for advice. Not even meditation is helping.

Paramemetic
Sep 29, 2003

Area 51. You heard of it, right?





Fallen Rib
There is nothing I can say that won't come from a position of privilege, and there is a disconnect in our lived realities that makes it difficult to speak on the subject. I will try to give some small advice, but I unfortunately can't claim that I understand your position except nominally.

I can't say I think it's good that you're angry, but maybe it's good in this case to be "mad as hell?" We have huge problems in this country, and an institutionalized racism and perpetual class war are just manifestations of bigger problems. But when we speak in broad strokes about societal level problems, I think it's too easy to lose sight of human beings. For example, I agree with you that it's atrocious the situation we find ourselves in. It is Not OK that an African American male is killed every 28 minutes by a police officer. It's Not OK that we've created firmly entrenched social expectations that assume criminality in African Americans, that as a society working with this assumption that we reinforce this expectation and that we truly do our damnedest to make it come true, but affording different educational opportunities and so on. It's Not OK that the generational impact of these long lasting social struggles creates a perpetuating machine that drives it. It's Not OK that we continue to wage a class war against the working classes that manifests as a race struggle because African Americans comprise a disproportionate amount of the urban working class, and that this is true only because we have a system structured to prevent largescale social equality and we only started even pretending to care about social equality in the last hundred years.

However, none of that has anything to do with individuals. And while there are some totally racist shitbags out there, and a vast number of white people who simply don't get it, anger about it can't be helpful. It is totally not cool that any of those things are true, and that all of those things I mentioned are just a tip of an iceberg of social issues, but dwelling on them becomes paralyzing.

I cannot, from my position of privilege, tell you some stupid platitude about how you should accept this or that, or become okay with this or that, or even in what ways it's acceptable to struggle for a brighter future. I can say though that with regards to your great compassion, consider too compassion for ignorant and terrible people. Consider how awful it must be to be a white dude who literally thinks that every African American he passes is a potential threat, to feel that fear constantly, or to be a racist shitbag desperately clinging to a social order that never belonged in any time period but found itself in colonial era slavery and slavery-era America. It is important, vitally necessary, to feel compassion for the oppressed, and of course you're doing that naturally. But it's also important to feel compassion for oppressors, especially when many of those oppressors want none of it.

Man, your situation sucks. I want you to know there are people who stand by you in a struggle for a better world. I am sorry you find yourself losing patience in this situation, but it's easy to see. There is currently a media furor about this lovely world we live in, but it's not designed to highlight the inequality, but to profit on the headlines that come from struggle. The utter lack of a left wing press in the US makes it so that every news story about this is dramatically off point, even the ones that are on point. But all we can do is work towards a better tomorrow.

It's going to be painfully slow going, but compassion and lovingkindness on a small scale is what we have control over. I cannot fix race relations in America, but I can treat everyone I meet like my own mother, regardless of race. I can't change that I was born in a nonsense world where I was afforded greater opportunities, but I can do whatever in my power to do right and benefit sentient beings with those opportunities.

I guess ultimately I have no useful advice but to say that "think globally, act locally" is a thing, and that it's impossible to regard race when working for the benefit of all sentient beings. I hope you find some peace, yours is not an easy burden.

Jupiter Jazz
Jan 13, 2007

by sebmojo
I didn't find your post from the position of privilege at all. You're right on pretty much everything there. I try to apply metta to the ignorant, and in the past it worked, but I'm pissed now to the point where I still feel like I'm drowning in it. I have a long journey ahead of me and I need to practice more. Your post was what I needed to read. Still, it's hard. It'd really help if I had a sangha but I should be satisfied I live 20 minutes away from a zen center.

This practice by the way is especially useful when visiting white zen centers because they tend to do things they don't see as...um, stereotypical or sometimes even exclusionary or racist. It's been useful in the past. I must keep trying, I guess.

Mr. Mambold
Feb 13, 2011

Aha. Nice post.



Himuro posted:

I'm angry all the time over the past few weeks watching the trajectory of the United States. As a black American it scares me how little this nation cares for us. The amount of police brutality booming makes me fear my family's future. I cannot get over the anger that tells me that black lives don't matter. I'm working on a two way street. On one hand, my compassion pains me because it's treating an entire group - one I'm a part of - as less than human. On the other, this compassion is driving me to duhkka.

It's getting a point where I'm taking my anger out on people I like and I'm losing compassion for everything. It's turning me into a fairly miserable person. But I can't let it go and it won't go away. I'm usually highly empathetic. Meditation and buddhism have helped me to become a better person, and while I realize that's not the inherent point, it was a nice bonus feature. But here I am incapable of applying everything I learned and it's hurting me and people I love. It honestly scares me. I know it won't be this way forever but I'm losing patience. I tried to talk to my abbot at my zen center this past week and they're having a(nother) sesshin. I swear they have a sesshin every month, good lord. I feel like I have no one to run to for advice. Not even meditation is helping.

You've posted some really vapid posts, but this one is good because it seems earnest and from the heart. I don't get the logic of how your compassion pains you, or driving you to dukkha here, but no matter. When meditation is not helping, meditate more. poo poo is always gonna happen, so let it be a driving force for you to get clear of it. Get to your center if only for a few seconds...get into the clear light that is your buddha nature. Understand that it understands, and it will free you from the terrible anger.

You know, if you really subscribe to buddhism, you do one life in a black body, another in a white one, another in a red one...and you try to learn something each time....it's like cars. Maybe that's why they're called vehicles.

Jupiter Jazz
Jan 13, 2007

by sebmojo
I'm sorry that I have made some valid posts in this thread. I'm still new to Buddhism, I haven't taken refuge, and I really don't have a sangha. I'm still learning, so excuse my ignorance in the past, present and future.

Mr. Mambold
Feb 13, 2011

Aha. Nice post.



Himuro posted:

I'm sorry that I have made some valid posts in this thread. I'm still new to Buddhism, I haven't taken refuge, and I really don't have a sangha. I'm still learning, so excuse my ignorance in the past, present and future.

Lol, don't worry about it unless that distracts you from those other issues. Then do worry about it.

Dr.Caligari
May 5, 2005

"Here's a big, beautiful avatar for someone"
Is anyone here able to read this? I picked it up for close to nothing at a junk shop. I recognize a couple of the symbols, but I'm not sure if it's even Tibetan.

Dr.Caligari fucked around with this message at 04:37 on Dec 7, 2014

Paramemetic
Sep 29, 2003

Area 51. You heard of it, right?





Fallen Rib
It's Om Mani Padme Hung.

Rhymenoceros
Nov 16, 2008
Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five?

It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will.

Himuro posted:

I'm angry all the time over the past few weeks watching the trajectory of the United States. As a black American it scares me how little this nation cares for us. The amount of police brutality booming makes me fear my family's future. I cannot get over the anger that tells me that black lives don't matter. I'm working on a two way street. On one hand, my compassion pains me because it's treating an entire group - one I'm a part of - as less than human. On the other, this compassion is driving me to duhkka.
I don't think compassion can pain you or drive you to duhkka. Whatever you're feeling, it's probably not compassion if it's making you unhappy.

Paramemetic
Sep 29, 2003

Area 51. You heard of it, right?





Fallen Rib

Rhymenoceros posted:

I don't think compassion can pain you or drive you to duhkka. Whatever you're feeling, it's probably not compassion if it's making you unhappy.

Definitely compassion can hurt. How can it not? Every sentient being is suffering here in samsara. But I think there's a difference between compassion with attachment and compassion without attachment.

Rhymenoceros
Nov 16, 2008
Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five?

It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will.

Paramemetic posted:

Definitely compassion can hurt. How can it not? Every sentient being is suffering here in samsara. But I think there's a difference between compassion with attachment and compassion without attachment.
How can compassion hurt? Every sentient being is suffering here in samsara, so why increase the sum total by hurting?

When I am suffering, I certainly don't feel better if I think that I am making compassionate people sad by suffering, that just makes me feel worse!

I think that compassion something that gives energy to help. Like, you see someone who looks sad and you think "is there anything I can do for that person to help them out of that state?" But it feels good, you know; "may that person not be sad anymore", etc. :)

Edit: If you told someone who was in pain, "I feel so bad because of your pain", that would just make that person in pain feel even worse, so how can that be compassion?

Rhymenoceros fucked around with this message at 14:47 on Dec 7, 2014

Jupiter Jazz
Jan 13, 2007

by sebmojo
Compassion hurts in this case because I am compassionate towards something or a situation many openly say does not exist, which is my and other blacks' life experience. This drives me to suffering because I'm so compassionate towards trying to help people who are similar situations by protesting and getting the word out and volunteering. But this compassion is compassion with attachment, because I am attached to the idea of being black and sympathizing with the black struggle. The fact that there are those who openly say my life experience isn't real drives me to anger. It's entirely fueled by compassion for myself and compassion for my people but it's done wholly with attachment. What I'm lacking in my practice is the ability to drop attachment to my black identity and form the compassion to the people who act so ignorant and foolishly. But this is hard when being black is a part of my every day struggle of living (I.e. Don't do this in front of a white person because they will react like y) that can put me in dangerous situations and people scoff it off. The same is true for my female identity as well. These are attachments I can't let go. And it brings a lot of suffering.

Basically, my anger stems from the fact that me and my people are hurting, but no one else really seems to care. I have tremendous compassion for the men (and children!) who have been killed recently just for being black and those who can potentially go through the same thing. instead of being helpful, people (often white people) say that our life experience is not true. The fact that they can't be compassionate to police shooting a 12 year old on sight because he was black and had a toy gun pisses me the gently caress off. The fact that people think someone who stole 2 dollar blunt wraps deserves to die pisses me the gently caress off.

Jupiter Jazz fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Dec 7, 2014

Ugrok
Dec 30, 2009
What may be of help is to realize the fact that everyone, absolutely everyone, even the worst of the racist torturing dictators you could imagine, is just doing the exact same stuff as you : trying to be happy, and trying to avoid suffering. This perspective helps a lot with anger at other people doing bad stuff to people.

Another thing that may help in dealing with anger can be found in Shantideva's "Way of the boddhisatva" : basically, when you are angry, be angry towards the anger, not towards something else.

Mr. Mambold
Feb 13, 2011

Aha. Nice post.



Ugrok posted:

What may be of help is to realize the fact that everyone, absolutely everyone, even the worst of the racist torturing dictators you could imagine, is just doing the exact same stuff as you : trying to be happy, and trying to avoid suffering. This perspective helps a lot with anger at other people doing bad stuff to people.

Another thing that may help in dealing with anger can be found in Shantideva's "Way of the boddhisatva" : basically, when you are angry, be angry towards the anger, not towards something else.

This is such bullshit, how can you even think you're being helpful? The fact is those perpetrators are not trying to be happy, they are inflicting pain because they live in pain and anger and fear you absolute rear end.

This is why the Buddha and, for that matter Jesus of Nazareth also, taught that the only way to break free of the chains of anger and fear is with love and equanimity....you cannot change someone for the better out of hatred, and you must guard being overcome with anger and hatred yourself.

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!



Mr. Mambold posted:

This is such bullshit, how can you even think you're being helpful? The fact is those perpetrators are not trying to be happy, they are inflicting pain because they live in pain and anger and fear you absolute rear end.
I think he's saying "if you feel destructively furious at these people, remember that they are also suffering in this world the same as you, and are therefore ultimately no better off than the people they oppress." This doesn't justify them in the slightest nor should it discourage resistance, working for positive changes, and so on. But it's true, and it may be a method to ease your own personal specific state.

Ugrok
Dec 30, 2009

Mr. Mambold posted:

This is such bullshit, how can you even think you're being helpful? The fact is those perpetrators are not trying to be happy, they are inflicting pain because they live in pain and anger and fear you absolute rear end.

This is why the Buddha and, for that matter Jesus of Nazareth also, taught that the only way to break free of the chains of anger and fear is with love and equanimity....you cannot change someone for the better out of hatred, and you must guard being overcome with anger and hatred yourself.

I don't see how insulting me improves your point. Anyway i think you got me wrong. By no means was I trying to excuse anyone from his or her bad behavior. Of course loving people is better than being an rear end in a top hat who kills guys, this is not even a topic of discussion, come on.

But compassion is not just about that. It's not just about fluffy duffy "love each other and everything will be well". This attitude helps, a lot, and i am not denying it does ; but i really think compassion should be understood as something more profound than that. It's about understanding that every single one sentient being, just by the fact that it is a sentient being, is, on its most basic level (i mean, really basic : from a bacteria, to a human being, there is some sort of biological striving, at the least, to be ok and to avoid being harmed), the same as you and functioning under the same rules as you. As long as we're stuck in samsara together, we ALL struggle to be happy and not to suffer. People who commit atrocities are exactly the same. Only, they are completely mistaken, asleep, they don't know their nature, they're dumb, and led by totally wrong impulses to achieve their goal. I agree with you : they act out of pain and fear. And pain and fear come from wrong views. Now, reacting to those guys (as, by irony, reacting as you are to my post) by being angry at them is totally normal, but is also part of the problem. You don't get people out of anger and fear by being angry and fearful at them. Buddha's way is really hard because of this too : you must learn not to express anger and not to add fuel to the fire, sometimes, even when you hate the people or your situation. This takes practice.

Now the good part of this is that from the buddhist point of view, if you accept that every single being is suffering just as you are and may sometimes act badly just because they are deluded and sort of "misinformed" on what their life and happiness is really about, then you might work to improve things. If you come from the point of view, as seems to be your case, that "bad people just act out of anger and pain and that's it, it's like that", then you might as well give up on everything. Change starts with your own reactions to stuff. I'm sorry and apologize if i shocked or angered you as it was really not my intention.

Ugrok fucked around with this message at 00:15 on Dec 9, 2014

Jupiter Jazz
Jan 13, 2007

by sebmojo
I've calmed down the past few days. I managed to have an e-argument with someone on my cousin's facebook about all this who said that I need to start living beyond race and that we are one species, and that Mike Brown deserved to die for supposedly "beating the clerk the senseless." I managed to converse with this person without calling him a name or losing my cool. So I think I'm getting better. But man, was it hard.

It sucks too. I've been practicing for a year now. I used to kill bugs on sight, I used to be deathly afraid of bees and wasps. But through the practice I've managed to grow fond of bees, and while not wasps, I don't really have a phobia of them anymore. I had a fly roommate in my room that I didn't kill before he/she unfortunately died. I can do all that, but I struggle connecting with fellow man on an issue that we both - ultimately - want to fix. It's loving hard.

Jupiter Jazz fucked around with this message at 07:33 on Dec 10, 2014

a dog from hell
Oct 18, 2009

by zen death robot

Himuro posted:

I've calmed down the past few days. I managed to have an e-argument with someone on my cousin's facebook about all this who said that I need to start living beyond race and that we are one species, and that Mike Brown deserved to die for supposedly "beating the clerk the senseless." I managed to converse with this person without calling him a name or losing my cool. So I think I'm getting better. But man, was it hard.

It sucks too. I've been practicing for a year now. I used to kill bugs on sight, I used to be deathly afraid of bees and wasps. But through the practice I've managed to grow fond of bees, and while not wasps, I don't really have a phobia of them anymore. I had a fly roommate in my room that I didn't kill before he/she unfortunately died. I can do all that, but I struggle connecting with fellow man on an issue that we both - ultimately - want to fix. It's loving hard.

Hey man... the world is a violent place. Human beings have been killing each other for race, sex, or whatever physicality for a long long time and that drama will never be "fixed" by an individual. Tormenting yourself and having foolish arguments on facebook doesn't make you compassionate, it makes you a little bit crazy. Maybe find someone real to talk to like a therapist or a friend.

Have you read William Faulkner? He has a lot of compelling things to say about race and the brutal mob mentality it brings out in humans. Unfortunately racism is very real no matter who you are. It's just one of those things.

If you want to be the actor and play your part then have at it, but you'll just be one more fanatic adding to the mess.

a dog from hell fucked around with this message at 08:31 on Dec 10, 2014

Jupiter Jazz
Jan 13, 2007

by sebmojo
I don't think anything in that post says I'm torturing myself. Nor did I say that arguing with someone on Facebook is compassion. Good lord. This is the Buddhism thread. Everything is a part of the practice. Even an online interaction.

Jupiter Jazz fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Dec 10, 2014

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Dr.Caligari
May 5, 2005

"Here's a big, beautiful avatar for someone"
The world is violent and ugly. There are countless injustices out there, most which we will never even know of, and one could drive themselves crazy thinking about them. But try focusing on what you can do positively. Keep those suffering in your mind and do what you can to ease that suffering, even if all you can do is pray.

Many television and print news outlets fuels hate and negativity, so be mindful of what you ingest. I'm not saying ignore things, but try to see the whole picture and not assume things or blindly trust the assumptions of others. Most of us grow up believing things are 'black and white'; Bad people are in prison and good people go to church, etc. But as adults (and especially Buddhist) we know this isn't the case and we need to cut though the 'fluff' to see the suffering, and help soothe it when we can.

Dr.Caligari fucked around with this message at 17:13 on Dec 10, 2014

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