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ActusRhesus posted:For starters, punishment helps bring closure to victims. They have a stake in this too. Isn't part of why everyone is so angry about the Darren Wilson case because there was no justice for the Brown family? Doesn't this thread repeatedly endorse holding rogue cops accountable? Newsflash: "i want someone held accountable" IS retributive philosophy. Accountability means change, which is more than punishing some shmoe on the beat. Like all murderers, Darren Wilson should have been convicted of murder, then sent to abide at a healing retreat with calm and beatific warders ready to make sure he gets to group therapy on time. And the corrupt policing system that produced him should be destroyed so that there's no brick on top of another one. You destroy corrupt institutions; you recover corrupted individuals. That's justice. That's what the people who are marching want, they don't want blood, they're not like you. I don't see how "punishment helps bring closure" is any more self-evidently true than "expensive funerals help bring closure." We're taught to believe that punishment brings closure. But a positive change is what brings closure. fosborb posted:How is an indefinite detention against will and judged necessary on past actions not punishment in the eyes of the detained? Well I mean they're free to look at it however they want. When I worked at a treatment program for sexually aggressive youth, almost all of them were grateful to be there instead of Echo Glen. But the purpose was to fix them and return them to their communities, because no other approach (other than summarily executing them) would work better to minimize the likelihood of their doing harm in the future. Most of them seemed to understand that they weren't being punished, that the judge was smart enough not to harm their own community by punishing them, and damning them to a cycle of incarceration, decline and re-offense. Some of them didn't understand, of course. They wouldn't participate in treatment, and had to leave the program and go to jail. But I would prefer that our system be more calm and patient with that kind of washout, and keep them in an environment that is restrictive but still respects their humanity and equality with others. And I see no reason that same logic shouldn't be applied to murderers. Jack of Hearts posted:In a highly-abstracted sense, leaving aside all the practical problems of implementing a death penalty, I don't understand why we're obligated to contain them rather than kill them. Declarations about "human dignity" and whatnot stray dangerously close to anti-choice arguments. If it were possible to know with certainty that a man were a violent sociopath, then why not do away with him? Because we're better than him. That's already the logic he applies to us.
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Dec 10, 2014 05:24
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SedanChair posted:Hippy bullshit based on limited experience with teenagers And I'm pretty sure more that a few protestors did indeed want to see Wilson punished. Your "they're not like you" jab is pretty out of touch.
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Dec 10, 2014 05:30
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:Yes, that is what I am saying. All available evidence suggests that the costs of prohibition are far worse than any alternatives. There is value in a comprehensive regulatory system that includes tracking sales, strict quality control and labeling guidelines, marketing bans, access to mental health services as needed, and other harm reduction tactics. But heavy-handed criminal enforcement on people participating in the industry is clearly both ineffectual and has unbearable societal costs. Again, this requires a strong affirmative argument. Make it here or in the libertarian thread. When you talk about "all the available evidence," this is false empiricism. Whether it's better to have lots of people in jail or addiction rates twice as high as they are now (this is not speculative, read about Western countries in the forty years around the turn of the 20th century, before any drug prohibition at all) is a value judgement. You seem to think that it's better to allow people to destroy their lives through addiction than arrest those who profiteer off of human weakness. Fine. But make a case.
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Dec 10, 2014 05:31
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ActusRhesus posted:stereotypes about vengeance-thirsty blacks Which do you think they want more, that Wilson be punished or that the police stop murdering black males?
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Dec 10, 2014 05:36
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SedanChair posted:Which do you think they want more, that Wilson be punished or that the police stop murdering black males? You're the one who spoke in absolutes. You're the one who claimed they didn't want punishment. Now you're moving the goalposts.
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Dec 10, 2014 05:37
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My city just repealed a civil rights law. It's a big exclamation point end to the week regarding what the minority sub-classes have in this country. I'm seriously asking here. This is not a joke. How many here are up for creating a guerrilla militia willing to put a stop to this. Because at this point I have nothing left to live for. (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 10, 2014 05:43
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ActusRhesus posted:You're the one who spoke in absolutes. You're the one who claimed they didn't want punishment. Now you're moving the goalposts. Well there's this whole thing about characterizing whole groups in a single sentence. I suppose I should apologize for taking a small bit of license, I haven't granted the same to you. Do you have anything to say about my criticisms of retributive justice other than to call it "hippy bullshit"? Cause I can sum your ideas up a bit more curtly as well.
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Dec 10, 2014 05:44
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SedanChair posted:Well there's this whole thing about characterizing whole groups in a single sentence. I suppose I should apologize for taking a small bit of license, I haven't granted the same to you. You lost me when you suggested, ironically in the police reform thread, that if convicted of murder Wilson should "abide at a healing retreat". I envisioned sweat lodges. Were you thinking sweat lodges?
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Dec 10, 2014 05:46
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ActusRhesus posted:You lost me when you suggested, ironically in the police reform thread, that if convicted of murder Wilson should "abide at a healing retreat". I envisioned sweat lodges. Were you thinking sweat lodges? Well as long as it's not cultural appropriation
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Dec 10, 2014 05:48
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SedanChair posted:Because we're better than him. That's already the logic he applies to us. Are we? This is a reasonably strong argument from a rhetorical standpoint, as it appeals to people's vanity, but as for myself, I make no claims about my own moral status. Certainly it's reasonable to argue against the death penalty as a pacifist. If you're a pacifist, fine, that's a consistent position. If you're not a pacifist...ehhhhhhh.
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Dec 10, 2014 05:55
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Jack of Hearts posted:Certainly it's reasonable to argue against the death penalty as a pacifist. If you're a pacifist, fine, that's a consistent position. If you're not a pacifist...ehhhhhhh.
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Dec 10, 2014 06:21
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Rent-A-Cop posted:The death penalty is incredibly expensive, prone to mistakes, and has no discernible deterrent effect. The only argument for it is that certain people deserve to be killed so much that their deaths are worth the deaths of innocents and the billions of dollars that will be spent on killing them. You're right, I misstated my argument. As I said in my previous post, I was speaking in a highly abstracted sense. In actual reality the death penalty is almost impossible to implement systemically. We could do it with DNA plus witness statements, but by then there'd be almost no point. I don't think it's morally impermissible, just worthless pragmatically.
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Dec 10, 2014 06:29
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Rent-A-Cop posted:The death penalty is incredibly expensive, prone to mistakes, and has no discernible deterrent effect. The only argument for it is that certain people deserve to be killed so much that their deaths are worth the deaths of innocents and the billions of dollars that will be spent on killing them. Any rehabilitative effort would, if successful, leave the convicted with such remorse that they would logically commit suicide, ergo,
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Dec 10, 2014 06:32
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I have an idle question: are there any sources, anywhere, that report on Eric Garner's convictions? There are plenty of sources repeating the number of 30 arrests sourced to the WSJ. But I can't find anything about how many of those resulted in convictions, and while it's not a key distinction to me, if that number is, say, zero, it might lend him a lot more sympathy from the "hur dur hur don't resist arrest" crowd.
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Dec 10, 2014 07:39
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Use of force by the police is not a retributive punishment for one's past actions. Using chokehold against unarmed Hitler is as much wrong as it is against your grandma. And shooting at your grand ma can also be okay if she is shooting at cops. What is the character of the person and what is their past should have no bearing on the use of force. Don't you go down that road either.
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Dec 10, 2014 07:53
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Elotana posted:I have an idle question: are there any sources, anywhere, that report on Eric Garner's convictions? http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/12/03/actual-facts-Eric-Garner http://www.silive.com/northshore/index.ssf/2014/07/eric_garner_who_died_in_police.html Couple of articles with various links to information. Although from what it appears New York has removed his name from results of court records.
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Dec 10, 2014 08:10
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Please don't link to Breitbart. Besides that, past actions have no play in this case at all. It's the Police, not the Death Squad. Chokeholding mildly resisting McVeigh, Manson, Aurora Shooter or Slobodan Milocevicz would be just as wrong. All of them were also arrested without gunshots or chokeholds. Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 08:15 on Dec 10, 2014 |
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Dec 10, 2014 08:13
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Vahakyla posted:Please don't link to Breitbart. No by all means, link to it. It says a lot.
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Dec 10, 2014 08:15
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SedanChair posted:No by all means, link to it. It says a lot. What is more surprising is the fact you even have to link to Breitbart to get a full picture of the story. SedanChair posted:Accountability means change, which is more than punishing some shmoe on the beat. Like all murderers, Darren Wilson should have been convicted of murder, then sent to abide at a healing retreat with calm and beatific warders ready to make sure he gets to group therapy on time. And the corrupt policing system that produced him should be destroyed so that there's no brick on top of another one. You destroy corrupt institutions; you recover corrupted individuals. That's justice. That's what the people who are marching want, they don't want blood, they're not like you. You give them too much credit. It's far more likely they just wanted to see a cop go to jail. England Sucks posted:I'm seriously asking here. This is not a joke. How many here are up for creating a guerrilla militia willing to put a stop to this. Because at this point I have nothing left to live for. No matter what problems you are dealing with, we want to help you find a reason to keep living. By calling 1-800-273-TALK (8255) you’ll be connected to a skilled, trained counselor at a crisis center in your area, anytime 24/7. http://www.suicidepreventionlifeline.org/ The Shep fucked around with this message at 09:08 on Dec 10, 2014 |
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Dec 10, 2014 09:00
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Yeah, they probably want to see a cop go to jail because he murdered an unarmed non-resisting black guy on videotape. If it wasn't a cop, they'd be on trial and likely facing some kind of charges that'd stick.
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Dec 10, 2014 09:17
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Cmdr. Shepard posted:You give them too much credit. It's far more likely they just wanted to see a cop go to jail. These bloodthirsty savages. Baying for the literal non-perversion of justice. God drat them.
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Dec 10, 2014 10:04
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repeating posted:These bloodthirsty savages. Baying for the literal non-perversion of justice. God drat them. I don't think it's the response of a bloodthirsty savage at all, it's actually quite human. but then I also recognize the validity of retributive sentencing philosophy.
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Dec 10, 2014 13:04
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ActusRhesus posted:I don't think it's the response of a bloodthirsty savage at all, it's actually quite human. but then I also recognize the validity of retributive sentencing philosophy. You might recognize it, but you haven't given any good defense of it beyond it providing "closure" and "dignity" which are platitudes. What is the value of retribution, when made distinct from deterrence?
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Dec 10, 2014 14:26
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ActusRhesus posted:I don't think it's the response of a bloodthirsty savage at all, it's actually quite human. but then I also recognize the validity of retributive sentencing philosophy. Are all lawyers as insufferable as you? One of my siblings became one and she is just straight up a bitch. Why does law school change you people so drat much.
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Dec 10, 2014 14:42
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SedanChair posted:You might recognize it, but you haven't given any good defense of it beyond it providing "closure" and "dignity" which are platitudes. But when you wrote "Like all murderers, Darren Wilson should have been convicted of murder, then sent to abide at a healing retreat with calm and beatific warders ready to make sure he gets to group therapy on time. And the corrupt policing system that produced him should be destroyed so that there's no brick on top of another one. You destroy corrupt institutions; you recover corrupted individuals.", you did not deny the need for retribution/punishment. You just shifted its subject from the person to the system.
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Dec 10, 2014 14:50
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Tight Booty Shorts posted:Are all lawyers as insufferable as you? One of my siblings became one and she is just straight up a bitch. Why does law school change you people so drat much. Paying 100,000 dollars for an education that could be taught in 2 years at community college really messes a person up
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Dec 10, 2014 14:52
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meristem posted:But when you wrote "Like all murderers, Darren Wilson should have been convicted of murder, then sent to abide at a healing retreat with calm and beatific warders ready to make sure he gets to group therapy on time. And the corrupt policing system that produced him should be destroyed so that there's no brick on top of another one. You destroy corrupt institutions; you recover corrupted individuals.", you did not deny the need for retribution/punishment. You just shifted its subject from the person to the system. That's retarded. Institutions aren't beings, the intent is not to whack them with a newspaper, the intent is to change systems that are harmful.
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Dec 10, 2014 14:52
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SedanChair posted:That's what the people who are marching want, they don't want blood, they're not like you. Cmdr. Shepard posted:You give them too much credit. It's far more likely they just wanted to see a cop go to jail. I mean people like ActusRhesus will go through all kinds of hoops to say rar rar retribution but the issue comes when you actually have people like ActusRhesus or anyone on thier "side" committing criminal activity and then boom "we have to carefully weigh the facts, we don't want to rush to justice". There exist a double standard that everyone in the world can see and the best that the ActusRhesus's can muster is "Don't you want justice?" and we all have to look at them and say "Don't you?" Bottom line is that if you are afraid the legal system will treat a cop like it treats a person of color then the system is poo poo and needs to be reformed. Defending that system just shows hypocrisy in clamoring for justice.
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Dec 10, 2014 15:24
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you really seem to like glossing over the point where I said the prosecutor in Wilson's case should have recused himself. You really like ignoring that fact.
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Dec 10, 2014 15:30
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Tight Booty Shorts posted:Are all lawyers as insufferable as you? One of my siblings became one and she is just straight up a bitch. Why does law school change you people so drat much. I wasn't aware that believing that people who commit serious violent crimes should serve time in prison made one "insufferable."
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Dec 10, 2014 15:36
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Tight Booty Shorts posted:Are all lawyers as insufferable as you? One of my siblings became one and she is just straight up a bitch. Why does law school change you people so drat much. Your sister was a straight up bitch already, she just didn't have a large enough group of other assholes to encourage her behavior so she played it straight until she found her home. She sounds like the little-bit racist rookie cop/EMT/nurse/etc amplifying those beliefs to fit in, finding acceptance, and quickly adopting them unequivocally. Are all lawyers awful? Nope, but law school is a bath house. You don't have to be a dick, but that's where a lot of the fun is. (for what it's worth, none of the above is directed at AR because I'm not arrogant enough to think some frankly liberal legal interpretations just slightly to the right of Sister Helen loving Prejean posted on SA reveal the dark motives of Hitler, Esq.) That said, like college, people who spend a few years in the real world before going to law school are generally more focused, well rounded, and friendly than their classmates. They maybe aren't top 10 material, but they are consistently top half. I wonder if it's the same for law enforcement. Are people joining up later in life generally better than average but also socially removed from the people who signed on at 22? I imagine the number of ex-military muddles that dynamic somewhat, but I'm curious if a push for some "real world experience" before joining academies would make for less true believers. fosborb fucked around with this message at 15:53 on Dec 10, 2014 |
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Dec 10, 2014 15:43
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SedanChair posted:You might recognize it, but you haven't given any good defense of it beyond it providing "closure" and "dignity" which are platitudes. I don't know, you tell me: SedanChair posted:John Yoo should be executed.
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Dec 10, 2014 15:46
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SedanChair posted:That's retarded. Institutions aren't beings, the intent is not to whack them with a newspaper, the intent is to change systems that are harmful. Well, it was you who used the phrases "should be destroyed so that there's no brick on top of another one" and "You destroy corrupt institutions". You applied retributive justice to the institution. People calling for dismantling the CIA in response to the torture report are also clamouring for retributive justice. And that's OK - humans are hardwired for justice and fairness; that's why properly-measured retribution brings closure, on a personal and a societal scale. Note the 'properly-measured' here: obviously, different people have different tipping points.
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Dec 10, 2014 15:51
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ActusRhesus posted:you really seem to like glossing over the point where I said the prosecutor in Wilson's case should have recused himself. You really like ignoring that fact. Yeah great, tell the prosecutor to recluse himself. I mean how many more times does this have to play out with the Prosecution being assigned to go after cops who they rely on to do their job anyway? To be fair im giving you the benefit of the doubt because you are surrounded by people who do "the system works when used against poor and black people" thinking that since it works on poor and black that it works. I mean poo poo, your "retributive" system doesn't even work to protect Officers who DO stand up for what is right. I mean Regina Tasca lost her job for stopping her chimp white partner from assaulting a citizen, and you're gonna sit there and say a retributive system works? What the gently caress is wrong with you? The system buttfucks anyone who is poor and/or black or even tries to protect them.
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Dec 10, 2014 16:01
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It doesn't though. Nothing satisfies the bloodlust. Executions have people whining on how they got off easy. Life sentences have peope whining on how they should be tortured. If we try to measure justice in punishment, nothing ever satsfies the lust of the masses. Even if we draw and quarter them, there'd be millions who say that the offender got off easy and that we are soft on crime. Americans especially have lost all reason and sense in the sentences they hand out, and simultaneously believe that they are soft on crime, too. Why? Because one year or 400 years, nothing changes the crime that was done and thus nothing satisfies the bloodlust. Punishment does not work, but it does feel a tad good for many, only leaving them wanting for more. The perp has rights, too, and luckily many civilized nations have eplicitly prohibited punishment as a reason for any sentencing, and also denied the validity of the victim's opinion on the case, since the emotions of the offended are hardly a valid and fair system. Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Dec 10, 2014 |
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Dec 10, 2014 16:02
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tezcat posted:Yeah considered it, just I considered your other post as well, complete with telling a social worker who works with kids that their work is hippy bull poo poo. No. I said his desire to send people, murderers in particular, to a therapeutic facility was hippy bullshit. Try to actually respond to what was truly said. Because if you keep making up poo poo I never said to refute, I get to do the same with your posts...starting with your comments on the need to recognize the dignity of pederasts.
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Dec 10, 2014 16:05
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Vahakyla posted:and also denied the validity of the victim's opinion on the case, since the emotions of the offended are hardly a valid and fair system. There is a huge difference between allowing the victim the right to be heard and letting the victim determine the outcome. Are you saying that the victim doesn't have a right to be heard at all?
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Dec 10, 2014 16:07
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The society should treat everyone sit respect. Treating the offender with dignity does no further harm on the victim, but benefits the offender still. Both are members of the society and should be treated well to reduce crime and overall suffering in the society.
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Dec 10, 2014 16:08
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ActusRhesus posted:There is a huge difference between allowing the victim the right to be heard and letting the victim determine the outcome. Surely the victim is heard as a witness to the case, and they have the right to say their opinion, but plenty of these systems ignore those opinions in the sentencing, to go as far as to prohibit the consideration of them in any way. They are not heard in parole or probation hearings at all, either. It's a stark contrast to victims or their families calling for death and suffering to the perp in the courtroom or parole board.
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Dec 10, 2014 16:11
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Vahakyla posted:The society should treat everyone sit respect. Treating the offender with dignity does no further harm on the victim, but benefits the offender still. Both are members of the society and should be treated well to reduce crime and overall suffering in the society. but you essentially said the victim's views are invalid. How is that treating them with respect? Allowing a victim the right to speak at sentencing is hardly letting them dictate the process. Refusing them the right to speak, however, would be pretty marginalizing, no?
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Dec 10, 2014 16:12
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