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Unless I missed something in there the req is for someone who would be in a pool of DevOps engineers. It even says you'd be part of an on-call rotation. I realize that the req has a ton of different things listed. What I think is throwing people boggling at it is just something of a missing perspective. In mid-large scale IT, especially web ops, the usual way a team looks is a lot of generalists each with maybe a few specialties sharing the workload to get a lot of different small projects done, and this is only achieved through a shitload of collaboration. It's crazy, and there's a lot of "I don't have time to configure this because I am busy putting on a fire. Here's good tutorial to get you started see how far you can go and hit me up with any questions". If that sounds horrible to you then yeah don't pursue anything being labelled "DevOps". If that sounds awesome to you, jump in the pool!
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Dec 11, 2014 19:12
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Yeah, I think people might be missing in the way its worded (and I did myself, until I found the original listing) - notably:quote:
To me, you're not doing all of that, and you aren't expected to know all of the above. It's just a wide net type job listing, which yeah, can be problematic.
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Dec 11, 2014 19:18
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You'll either get a poo poo op, get poo poo code or both. That person will work until they burn out and the next person will have to support the pile of garbage. I am living this nightmare.
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Dec 11, 2014 19:41
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Griffon posted:You'll either get a poo poo op, get poo poo code or both. That person will work until they burn out and the next person will have to support the pile of garbage. I am living this nightmare. Sounds like every job I've ever had.  Is there a way to study for questions like "You're on a Sev A case but the Sev B you just closed has the customer calling back irate that your solution broke something. What do you do?"
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Dec 11, 2014 19:57
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psydude posted:This type of poo poo works if you're The IT Guy for a small company that doesn't support too many crazy applications and you have the ability to get the requisite support contracts, but given the crap they're listing, they're definitely big enough that your day to day life would consist of being thrown under the bus and killing a bottle of whiskey each evening. "DevOps Engineer" (quotes for all the reasons JHVH-1 has already gone into) is, in almost all cases, a T-shaped generalist who is an integration point between various technologies in use within the organization. It doesn't mean you're responsible for operations in every application and every service. Most organizations that practice DevOps have at least some degree of "you build it, you run it" product teams as opposed to centralized operations like corporate IT. That said, the pay for this particular job title is usually rather good for a generalist. Griffon posted:You'll either get a poo poo op, get poo poo code or both. That person will work until they burn out and the next person will have to support the pile of garbage. I am living this nightmare. Vulture Culture fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Dec 11, 2014 |
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Dec 11, 2014 19:59
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Docjowles posted:Real edit: And yes, these positions generally pay VERY well, actually. Rad, someone teach me how to Devops really quick. Is the path to this to just keep learning new skills, learning to script and keeping up to date on best practices?
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Dec 12, 2014 01:14
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:Rad, someone teach me how to Devops really quick. Just build apps in lightswitch and put the database on the largest instance of azure.
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Dec 12, 2014 02:31
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Isn't DevOps just the theory that if you put the onus of running the infrastructure on the developers, both the application and the infrastructure will suck less?
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Dec 12, 2014 03:09
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psydude posted:Isn't DevOps just the theory that if you put the onus of running the infrastructure on the developers, both the application and the infrastructure will suck less?
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Dec 12, 2014 03:42
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adorai posted:I think it's more about putting the ops guys and the developers on the same team so that there is less finger pointing. A big part of that is to hire ops guys with some programming experience, and giving additional rights to production to the actual developers. I am not sure you expect the guy writing the iphone app to have in depth knowledge of MTU or VLANs or load balancing hashing algorithms. Plus having us work for the same leaders (like 5 levels to the SVPs) makes us not play the escalation game all the loving time. It's broken. Let's fix it. Let's not spend >1 hour sending emails that climb the chain until someone says "just do it ffs". We as a former development only team also play a much bigger part is understanding how poo poo works and looking at monitoring/diagnostics/etc. Regardless of how much we wanted to do this, at the end of the day funding came from new stuff, not supporting old things so we favored it too heavily imo.
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Dec 12, 2014 03:59
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psydude posted:Isn't DevOps just the theory that if you put the onus of running the infrastructure on the developers, both the application and the infrastructure will suck less? It's more the theory that if people and teams have empathy for each other they will not be shitlords and by extension the infrastructure (and the apps that run on the infrastructure) will suck less. Because they've been designed for each other instead of done totally separately and then mashed together like a 3 year old with some Play-Doh. "lol make devs carry a pager" is like 1% of the big picture.
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Dec 12, 2014 04:41
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psydude posted:Isn't DevOps just the theory that if you put the onus of running the infrastructure on the developers, both the application and the infrastructure will suck less? DevOps proposes that maybe the problem isn't with the technology, and that maybe things would be easier to build and work better if we would just work together. I saw someone on Twitter the other day post a great example: someone in their organization spent weeks of effort building a distributed global locking mechanism into their app deployment tool so that multiple people don't deploy code to production at the same time. This sounds great, but wouldn't it be a lot easier to just post something in chat saying, "hey, I'm deploying right now, nobody else deploy please" instead of spending thousands of dollars of company time on a global distributed lock? To your point, in a well-run organization, oftentimes it is a lot simpler to have the teams that build the software often run the software. Netflix is a major proponent of this -- their entire technology organization is composed of microservices, and almost every development team runs their own services. Running your own software isn't at all like running off-the-shelf software. There's no expertise you can bring in from the outside like you can as a Microsoft Exchange admin where you can be confident that the software behaves a certain way with inputs and outputs flowing along a certain path. The whole process requires significant amounts of accumulated tribal knowledge just to follow data from service to service, and bugs are rarely at the system layer. It doesn't make sense to have someone whose job is to understand how to set up Sendmail and Samba like in a traditional IT organization running off-the-shelf software. On the other hand, you do hire cross-cutting generalists ("DevOps Engineers") in many of these organizations who understand how all the parts fit together and work really, really well as an extra set of eyes on any particular problem. You also hire very deep systems experts like Brendan Gregg who also function as consultants of sorts across the organization. edit: A solid 25-50% of my job revolves around customizing open-source software, typically with patches being made back upstream. Do people still hire senior engineers who can't code? Vulture Culture fucked around with this message at 09:02 on Dec 12, 2014 |
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Dec 12, 2014 05:19
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Not all workplaces are poo poo guys, some of us have good jobs!
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Dec 12, 2014 08:57
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And here I am, peeking over my monitor, scowling and wondering what unholy ritual you did to get those jobs. (You probably studied harder than I did)
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Dec 12, 2014 11:50
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NZAmoeba posted:Not all workplaces are poo poo guys, some of us have good jobs! I don't think I studied harder. I just had a good base to start my career so I was able to be picky about who I worked for and what I did. Mostly has worked out very well.
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Dec 12, 2014 15:56
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When I was at ATT it wasn't that development couldn't do basic administration it was that they simply didn't have any time - that's when I (or operations) came into play. It does seem that most DevOps positions are literally everything but with a specific focus on Linux,PostGre or MySQL,Python and Chef or Puppet. Which sounds like a lot to know...
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Dec 12, 2014 16:10
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Tab8715 posted:When I was at ATT it wasn't that development couldn't do basic administration it was that they simply didn't have any time - that's when I (or operations) came into play. Software I work with on a daily basis: Rundeck, Jenkins, Git, Subversion, Bamboo, Puppet, Mysql Code I need to be able to read and write: Python, Bash, Java, PHP Other stuff: RedHat systems administration, general application configuration and support My job is pretty much everything that the system engineers and software developers don't do. I am a generalist. I make things work that other people don't have time to figure out.
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Dec 12, 2014 16:17
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HatfulOfHollow posted:Software I work with on a daily basis: Rundeck, Jenkins, Git, Subversion, Bamboo, Puppet, Mysql That sounds like Sys Admin / Sys Engineering. What do sys engs do that you don't?
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Dec 12, 2014 17:18
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I think that DevOps has come up due to the fact that companies are realizing that trying to solve people problems with technology usually doesn't work. I think thats the crux of the whole "movement". Doing DevOps myself after moving from sysadmin it's a real breath of fresh air. I seem to get more leeway in being able to make changes to process and provide automation around those changes. It boils down to trying to make IT think more like developers ( using CVS, infrastructure as code ) and developers think more like IT ( what their infrastructure can and cannot do, when not to throw money at a problem ).
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Dec 12, 2014 17:22
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I'm seriously sitting here with the Director of Technology Architecture (my boss) and the Director of Security Architecture finding workarounds in our firewall / scansafe so we can run Minecraft multiplayer on my bosses personal server. Just wanted to share.
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Dec 12, 2014 17:33
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Fiendish Dr. Wu posted:I'm seriously sitting here with the Director of Technology Architecture (my boss) and the Director of Security Architecture finding workarounds in our firewall / scansafe so we can run Minecraft multiplayer on my bosses personal server. Just wanted to share. SSL VPN over 443?
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Dec 12, 2014 17:35
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Everybody just read the phoenix project. Then you will be a devop in no time.
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Dec 12, 2014 17:51
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It's a surprisingly enjoyable read. Although the first part should be plastered with trigger warnings. At least one aspect of the company's dystopian IT clusterfuck will definitely hit too close to home for every reader.
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Dec 12, 2014 18:07
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dogstile posted:And here I am, peeking over my monitor, scowling and wondering what unholy ritual you did to get those jobs. I can only speak for myself, but I think for me it's been about 5% being pretty smart, about 10% personal networking and a solid 85% pure loving luck.
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Dec 12, 2014 18:16
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stubblyhead posted:I can only speak for myself, but I think for me it's been about 5% being pretty smart, about 10% personal networking and a solid 85% pure loving luck. This is accurate for nearly everyone in a good job, even if they don't believe it themselves. I had a horrible job until the father of one of my friends recommended me to a position, and I moved up from there.
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Dec 12, 2014 18:31
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Our new VNX2 is entering production today. Sweet gently caress it's fast and pretty.
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Dec 12, 2014 18:45
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stubblyhead posted:I can only speak for myself, but I think for me it's been about 5% being pretty smart, about 10% personal networking and a solid 85% pure loving luck.
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Dec 12, 2014 19:04
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Mrit posted:This is accurate for nearly everyone in a good job, even if they don't believe it themselves. The corollary to this is that Luck is the intersection of preparation and opportunity. If you want the good jobs at the companies doing things right you have to be willing to learn skills that they use. If your company is in the stone age provisioning servers by hand that means its on you to go home, fire up your test VM cluster, and hack around with Chef for a few hours every night. It sucks, but that's the only way you're going to get the job when the opportunity comes round.
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Dec 12, 2014 19:41
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Is Chef, Puppet ever used with Windows? For those in automated environments do you ever have to do things manually?
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Dec 12, 2014 20:16
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Tab8715 posted:Is Chef, Puppet ever used with Windows?
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Dec 12, 2014 20:19
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We're doing a phone interview with a guy right now. I asked a question about 20 minutes ago, and one of my coworkers asked him a similar question just a moment ago. The guy got upset and was like, like I told you, blah blah blah. Should I need to tell someone that getting annoyed at our questions in a phone interview, where all questions are generic softballs, is probably a bad idea to move to the next round?
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Dec 12, 2014 20:24
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Misogynist posted:Chef and Puppet are beginning to be used with Windows more frequently. Both tools recently got very good support for PowerShell DSC primitives, which pretty tremendously extends their power on the Windows platform. I was just gonna say, Powershell DSC is awesome for this kind of thing on Windows. Just learning about it myself.
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Dec 12, 2014 20:25
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For Christmas, Evil Santa is bringing me a new year filled with idiots using Windows on Macbooks oh joy
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Dec 12, 2014 20:27
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MC Fruit Stripe posted:We're doing a phone interview with a guy right now. I asked a question about 20 minutes ago, and one of my coworkers asked him a similar question just a moment ago. The guy got upset and was like, like I told you, blah blah blah. Eh, In IT you should be expected to be asked the same question more than once without getting bent out of shape but rate candidates as a whole not on a single question.
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Dec 12, 2014 20:34
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Yeah, but there's nothing wrong with the guy going "That's kind of answered by the question you asked me before and I would use pretty much the same solution, as the problems are so similar" blah blah blah Getting annoyed about it is a warning light.
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Dec 12, 2014 20:44
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ElGroucho posted:For Christmas, Evil Santa is bringing me a new year filled with idiots using Windows on Macbooks Please let me know the best way to replace a HDD with a bootcamp install. I have two mac minis that are depressingly slow and I want to replace with an SSD but I do not want to reinstall anything.
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Dec 12, 2014 21:45
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MrMoo posted:Please let me know the best way to replace a HDD with a bootcamp install. I have two mac minis that are depressingly slow and I want to replace with an SSD but I do not want to reinstall anything. I did this a few years back with DeployStudio, but it is by no means easy or fast.
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Dec 12, 2014 21:55
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MrMoo posted:Please let me know the best way to replace a HDD with a bootcamp install. I have two mac minis that are depressingly slow and I want to replace with an SSD but I do not want to reinstall anything. I wish we were doing boot camp, these clowns want a Parallels install so they can diddle around on the Mac side at Starbucks or wherever, but do all their real work on the windows side I'm not anti-Mac, but gently caress's sake, sometimes its a square peg in a round hole
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Dec 12, 2014 22:41
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MrMoo posted:Please let me know the best way to replace a HDD with a bootcamp install. I have two mac minis that are depressingly slow and I want to replace with an SSD but I do not want to reinstall anything. It's easy with the built in OSX disk utility. You can just image the disk and restore it back onto the SSD - I think I used an external adapter to restore to the SSD but I don't remember. Bootcamp doesn't affect the loader at all
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Dec 12, 2014 22:54
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dogstile posted:Yeah, but there's nothing wrong with the guy going "That's kind of answered by the question you asked me before and I would use pretty much the same solution, as the problems are so similar" blah blah blah My gast is completely flabbered when candidates do this. When we were filling a position on my team, we interviewed internally first to give some people the option to move up in the organization. We had a phone interview where we grill on tech knowledge to get an idea of a baseline (how much do they know, will we need to train, is it worth it to train, etc...). This guy was so woefully unprepared and it was dawning on him as he had to pass on question after question. And I'm talking about stuff like "Tell me what the difference is between UDP and TCP." and "What authentication methods are available when using WPA2?". They start easy and get progressively more difficult. We find it wastes less time in the initial phone screen. At the end of the call, he actually said he thought we were asking deliberately difficult questions and he didn't think it was fair and we weren't allowing him a chance to show what he could do. This was a couple years ago. The thing is my group has been growing like mad lately and we're looking at opening some reqs in the near future. If he spent the last couple years learning and growing, we'd have been more than happy to re-interview him. But with the way he ended the interview, he completely burned that bridge. The only other thing that would have been worse was if we heard him typing on google while stalling (We can totally hear you guys typing away so don't think you're fooling anyone).
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Dec 12, 2014 23:24
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