D&D NEXT: Infinite Posts of the Abyss

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Toph Bei Fong: Feb 29, 2008

AlphaDog posted:

Like I said before, I think that's pretty unfair to the original core concepts, and even to the core concepts of AD&D through 2nd ed. To-hit bonuses and AC and HP are perfectly fine abstractions for combat. Ability checks to do hard stuff worked just fine in B/x and BECMI.

This was one of Gygax's all time favorite movie scenes. And I can understand fully why: it's a drat good movie sword fight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L10fR31jC1w

It also takes aprox. 2 rounds in old D&D combat (each round was 1 min. long), culminating in a critical hit, not the 70-80 that it would take if you tried to model each sword swing.

# ? Dec 10, 2014 05:47

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# ? May 15, 2024 16:54

Elector_Nerdlingen: Sep 27, 2004

Didn't we discuss exactly this a couple pages ago?

(I straight up love that scene).

e: This one too, the second sabre fight from one of my favorite movies, The Duellists https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOcxnQRUhMM

Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 06:06 on Dec 10, 2014

# ? Dec 10, 2014 05:48

Name Change: Oct 9, 2005

AlphaDog posted:

That's the stupid loving pseudo-realistic bullshit that I've talked about before. That's not how shields work. That demonstrates that nobody took the time to find out how to use a shield before writing the detailed shield rules. You can most certainly use a shield to defend the opposite side of your body to the one you're holding it on. You don't need to use any special technique to do so, it's part of the basic principles of using a shield.

I'm not going to even start on the initiative / weapon speed thing.

The smart play is to totally ignore any and all facing mechanics and never use this subsystem ever. Ever.

# ? Dec 10, 2014 06:40

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Having scanned through the original 4E DMG, I think I'm starting to get it now:

4th Edition DMG, Page 154 posted:

GOVERNMENT

In the absence of empires or large kingdoms, power and authority in the D&D world are concentrated in towns and cities. here minor nobles cling to the titles their families carried under past empires�dukes, barons, earls, counts, the occasional prince, here and there a self-styled king. These nobles hold authority over the towns and cities where they live and the surrounding lands. They collect taxes from the populace, which they use for public building projects, to pay the soldiery, and support a comfortable lifestyle for themselves (although nobles also have considerable hereditary wealth). In exchange, they promise to protect their citizens from threats such as orc marauders, hobgoblin armies, and roving human bandits.

The noble lords appoint officers to act as their agents in villages, to supervise the collection of taxes and serve as judges in disputes and criminal trials. These reeves, sheriffs, or bailiffs are commoners native to the villages they govern, chosen for their position because they already claim the respect of their fellow citizens.

Within the towns and cities, the lords share authority (and administrative responsibility) with lesser nobles, usually their own relatives, and also with representatives of the middle class. A lord mayor of noble birth is appointed to head the town or city council, and to perform the same administrative functions that reeves do in villages. The council is made up of representatives elected by the middle class of traders and artisans. Only foolish nobles ignore the wishes of their town councils, since the economic power of the middle class is more important to the prosperity of a town or city than the hereditary authority of the nobility.

The larger a settlement, the more likely it is that other individuals or organizations hold significant power there as well. even in a village, a popular individual�a wise elder or a well-liked farmer�can wield more influence than the appointed reeve, and a wise reeve avoids making an enemy of such a person. In towns and cities, the same power might lie in the hands of a prominent temple, a guild independent of the council, or a single individual with magical power to back up her influence.

5th Edition DMG, Page 17 posted:

GOVERNMENT

In the feudal society common in most D&D worlds, power and authority are concentrated in towns and cities. Nobles hold authority over the settlements where they live and the surrounding lands. They collect taxes from the populace, which they use for public building projects, to pay the soldiery, and to support a comfortable lifestyle for themselves (although nobles often have considerable hereditary wealth). In exchange, they promise to protect their citizens from threats such as ore marauders, hobgoblin armies, and roving human bandits.

Nobles appoint officers as their agents in villages, to supervise the collection of taxes and serve as judges in disputes and criminal trials. These reeves, sheriffs, or bailiffs are commoners native to the villages they govern, chosen for their positions because they already hold the respect of their fellow citizens.

Within towns and cities, lords share authority and administrative responsibility with lesser nobles (usually their own relatives), and also with representatives of the middle class, such as traders and artisans. A lord mayor of noble birth is appointed to head the town or city council and to perform the same administrative functions that reeves carry out in villages. The council consists of representatives elected by the middle class. Only foolish nobles ignore the wishes of their councils, since the economic power of the middle class is often more important to the prosperity of a town or city than the hereditary authority of the nobility.

The larger a settlement, the more likely that other individuals or organizations hold significant power there as well. Even in a village, a popular individual-a wise elder or a well-liked farmer-can wield more influence than the appointed reeve, and a wise reeve avoids making an enemy of such a person. In towns and cities, the same power might lie in the hands of a prominent temple, a guild independent of the council, or an individual with magical power.

What's the difference, you ask? Well, in the 5th Edition DMG, right below that last paragraph I quoted, is a table for randomly rolling forms of government.

01-08 Autocracy
09-13 Bureaucracy
14-19 Confederacy
20-22 Democracy
23-27 Dictatorship
28-42 Feudalism
43-44 Gerontocracy
45-53 Hierarchy
54-56 Magocracy
57-58 Matriarchy
59-64 Militocracy
65-74 Monarchy
75-78 Oligarchy
79-80 Patriarchy
81-83 Meritocracy
84-85 Plutocracy
86-92 Republic
93-94 Satrapy
95 Kleptocracy
96-00 Theocracy

# ? Dec 10, 2014 07:25

Elector_Nerdlingen: Sep 27, 2004

Even AD&D didn't pretend that randomly rolling the governments in your ~~world~~ milieu was a good idea.

# ? Dec 10, 2014 07:57

OutsideAngel: May 4, 2008

Spoilers Below posted:

This was one of Gygax's all time favorite movie scenes. And I can understand fully why: it's a drat good movie sword fight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L10fR31jC1w

It also takes aprox. 2 rounds in old D&D combat (each round was 1 min. long), culminating in a critical hit, not the 70-80 that it would take if you tried to model each sword swing.

I guessed exactly which scene this was, without ever even hearing that little D&D-related tidbit before (my second guess was obviously: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nB8tiSMCwRE )

What a shame that D&D has never had rules for playing out such a dynamic and mobile fight. I mean "I (full)attack, roll to-hit, (maybe) roll for damage" is all those scenes are about, right?

# ? Dec 10, 2014 09:49

Gort: Aug 18, 2003; Good day what ho cup of tea

OutsideAngel posted:

What a shame that D&D has never had rules for playing out such a dynamic and mobile fight. I mean "I (full)attack, roll to-hit, (maybe) roll for damage" is all those scenes are about, right?

I've heard... things about games like Burning Wheel - do they actually do a good job of simulating combat or do they end up like that one cowboy game where people end up orbiting each other like battlemechs?

# ? Dec 10, 2014 10:38

Ratpick: Oct 9, 2012; And no one ate dinner that night.

Gort posted:

I've heard... things about games like Burning Wheel - do they actually do a good job of simulating combat or do they end up like that one cowboy game where people end up orbiting each other like battlemechs?

Burning Wheel isn't really the go-to system for swashbuckling combat. It does have a dynamic combat system in that there are lots of different interactions between the various maneuvers you can pull and being able to guess what your enemy is going to pull on you is an important part of the metagame, but it's not really suited for long exchanges where no one gets hit until one decisive strike takes them down, because it's more gritty.

# ? Dec 10, 2014 11:11

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

En Garde! is the best RPG for playing out dramatic swashbuckling swordfights, which is pretty impressive for a game that came out in 1975.

# ? Dec 10, 2014 13:34

DarkHorse: Dec 13, 2006; Nap Ghost

I thought 4e did a good job of making combat more dynamic. In my players' game 4/6 players can be counted on to move each round, and the other two are ranged spell casters and will often reposition anyway. Throw in pulls, pushes, and slides, and the battlefield can quickly get pretty chaotic.

E: if you're talking about the granularity to model each individual thrust and parry with a die roll, gently caress that. Combat is slow enough already

# ? Dec 10, 2014 13:46

Jackard: Oct 28, 2007; We Have A Bow And We Wish To Use It

gradenko_2000 posted:

In the absence of empires or large kingdoms, power and authority in the D&D world are concentrated in towns and cities. here minor nobles cling to the titles their families carried under past empires—dukes, barons, earls, counts, the occasional prince, here and there a self-styled king.

"What would you call the potentate of this encampment?" "Oh, Emperor, at the very least. :v:

quote:

01-08 Autocracy
09-13 Bureaucracy
14-19 Confederacy
20-22 Democracy
23-27 Dictatorship
28-42 Feudalism
43-44 Gerontocracy
45-53 Hierarchy
54-56 Magocracy
57-58 Matriarchy
59-64 Militocracy
65-74 Monarchy
75-78 Oligarchy
79-80 Patriarchy
81-83 Meritocracy
84-85 Plutocracy
86-92 Republic
93-94 Satrapy
95 Kleptocracy
96-00 Theocracy

Did they bother explaining how to DM any of this?

Jackard fucked around with this message at 17:14 on Dec 10, 2014

# ? Dec 10, 2014 17:12

Sage Genesis: Aug 14, 2014; OG Murderhobo

Jackard posted:

Did they bother explaining how to DM any of this?

They explain what these words mean. For instance...

Gerontocracy: Elders preside over this society. In some cases, long-lived races such as elves or dragons are entrusted with the leadership of the land.

And that's it. There is no discussion on the benefits or drawbacks of these forms of government or anything like that. Strangely enough, the table is not quite in alphabetical order - as if they thought of most of the major forms of government first, alphabetized those, realized they had too few, and tacked the rest on at the end. The explanations on the other hand do appear in alphabetical order.

# ? Dec 10, 2014 17:29

Toph Bei Fong: Feb 29, 2008

Sage Genesis posted:

They explain what these words mean. For instance...

Gerontocracy: Elders preside over this society. In some cases, long-lived races such as elves or dragons are entrusted with the leadership of the land.

And that's it. There is no discussion on the benefits or drawbacks of these forms of government or anything like that. Strangely enough, the table is not quite in alphabetical order - as if they thought of most of the major forms of government first, alphabetized those, realized they had too few, and tacked the rest on at the end. The explanations on the other hand do appear in alphabetical order.

I personally love how all of these systems aren't mutually exclusive. One could have a Monarchical, Matriarchal, Bureaucratic, Feudal society, which is in a Confederacy with other Dictatorships, for example.

# ? Dec 10, 2014 17:42

Jackard: Oct 28, 2007; We Have A Bow And We Wish To Use It

Maybe they should have ditched the table for descriptions of how you can actually use these in-game and some sample plot hooks for each one!!

printing goddamned useless definitions, like we don't own a dictionary...

Jackard fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Dec 10, 2014

# ? Dec 10, 2014 17:46

P.d0t: Dec 27, 2007; I released my finger from the trigger, and then it was over...

Laphroaig posted:

Anyone who thinks Healing Surges are a bad mechanic are broken people.

The DM in my 5e game was like "one time I was playing 4e and I ran out of Healing Surges an I couldn't do anything and no one could heal me!"

And I was like, "Yep..? Good job, dumbass..?"

# ? Dec 10, 2014 20:40

thespaceinvader: Mar 30, 2011; The slightest touch from a Gol-Shogeg will result in Instant Death!

Also, not actually accurate. Anything that lets you spend a surge always resets you to at least 1hp, even if you have no surges. A healing surge will ALWAYS get you up and fighting, even if it's only with one hit point left.

# ? Dec 10, 2014 21:04

OfChristandMen: Feb 14, 2006; GENERIC CANDY AVATAR #2

After playing 3.5 for about 7 years, the only thing that really grinds my goonards is the Weapon and Armor Tables in the 5th Ed DMG. It was really clean and I enjoyed the +N Weapon with X, Y and Z options that equals some total bonuses.

Last night I was really irked having to trudge through 30 pages of stupid niche items just to try and find weapon modifiers.

I'll probably just create my own tables or start crafting items before hand but I just needed to vent because I really missed that structure and separation instead of these lame premade items of fish command.

# ? Dec 10, 2014 21:46

Jackard: Oct 28, 2007; We Have A Bow And We Wish To Use It

Fish command? When would that be useful, for sahuagin?

# ? Dec 10, 2014 21:51

Roadie: Jun 30, 2013

Jackard posted:

Fish command? When would that be useful, for sahuagin?

It's actually usable against any beast with a swim speed.

# ? Dec 10, 2014 21:55

Boing: Jul 12, 2005; trapped in custom title factory, send help

Ah yes, with my sceptre of fish command I will force these beavers to build a dam

# ? Dec 11, 2014 00:26

PeterWeller: Apr 21, 2003; I told you that story so I could tell you this one.

Boing posted:

Ah yes, with my sceptre of fish command I will force these beavers to build a dam

Let's be fair, in a world of owlbears and perytons and stuff,maybe beavers are fish.

# ? Dec 11, 2014 01:05

I Am The Scum: May 8, 2007; The devil made me do it

So... I found an article. http://boingboing.net/2014/12/09/the-awesome-glory-that-is-dung.html?utm_source=moreatbb&utm_medium=nextpost&utm_campaign=nextpostthumbnails

quote:

In 1577, the Spanish Carmelite nun Teresa of �vila wrote a prayer manual called The Interior Castle, which describes her path to union with God as a kind of epic single-player Dungeons and Dragons game.

quote:

I literally cannot get my head around what it must be like to be a child or teenager now, raised in a completely digitized world -- where fantasy and long reverie have given way to the instant gratification of electronic media.

quote:

I'm still staring at a computer -- we're using the excellent online role-playing tool Roll20.net

# ? Dec 11, 2014 01:06

Roadie: Jun 30, 2013

Monstrosity seems to be a combined magical beast/monstrous humanoid type. I guess it sort of makes sense, but the name seems off and I don't quite get the logic of how they used it. Centaurs are Neutral Good "monstrosities", as are mimics (despite aberration still being a type).

Edit: Also, the tarrasque is challenge 30 but still has no way to actually fight flying enemies with longbows (and there's no regeneration, so you just have to slowly whittle away its 676 hp), and brooms of flying and winged boots are both uncommon items. (The broom doesn't even require attunement.)

Roadie fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Dec 11, 2014

# ? Dec 11, 2014 01:22

Rannos22: Mar 30, 2011; Everything's the same as it always is.

I Am The Scum posted:

So... I found an article. http://boingboing.net/2014/12/09/the-awesome-glory-that-is-dung.html?utm_source=moreatbb&utm_medium=nextpost&utm_campaign=nextpostthumbnails

Not seeing anything specifically wrong with those last two quotes. Theyre not inherently contradictory. The first quote just doesn't make sense out of context.
Also this isn't the grognards.txt thread.

# ? Dec 11, 2014 01:32

Omnicrom: Aug 3, 2007; Snorlax Afficionado

Roadie posted:

Edit: Also, the tarrasque is challenge 30 but still has no way to actually fight flying enemies with longbows (and there's no regeneration, so you just have to slowly whittle away its 676 hp), and brooms of flying and winged boots are both uncommon items. (The broom doesn't even require attunement.)

Doesn't the 4E Tarrasque have a "gently caress you fliers, get on the ground" aura? I seem to recall reading that in the 4E monster manual years ago.

# ? Dec 11, 2014 04:25

Roadie: Jun 30, 2013

Omnicrom posted:

Doesn't the 4E Tarrasque have a "gently caress you fliers, get on the ground" aura? I seem to recall reading that in the 4E monster manual years ago.

Yep. The 5e one completely lacks that.

# ? Dec 11, 2014 04:27

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

Boing posted:

Ah yes, with my sceptre of fish command I will force these beavers to build a dam

The truth comes out about D&D Next's hidden Catholic agenda.

# ? Dec 11, 2014 05:20

Toph Bei Fong: Feb 29, 2008

I Am The Scum posted:

So... I found an article. http://boingboing.net/2014/12/09/the-awesome-glory-that-is-dung.html?utm_source=moreatbb&utm_medium=nextpost&utm_campaign=nextpostthumbnails

quote:
In 1577, the Spanish Carmelite nun Teresa of �vila wrote a prayer manual called The Interior Castle, which describes her path to union with God as a kind of epic single-player Dungeons and Dragons game.

Boy, and here I thought all the nerds used to (maybe) read too much into St. Teresa's writing and interpret her as having dirty fantasies about God... I guess you could read The Interior Castle as a D&D campaign, rather than as yet another example of a really really long tradition of allegorical and metaphorical writing that extended back to the very origin of the religion (and even long before that) by an extremely devout Christian saint.

# ? Dec 11, 2014 06:47

Sage Genesis: Aug 14, 2014; OG Murderhobo

Roadie posted:

Yep. The 5e one completely lacks that.

When the 5e Tarrasque was first previewed people pointed this out. Many of the responses were along the lines of, "people trying to use flight to stay out of reach of the walking apocalypse are cheating and I don't play with cheaters."

I am not even remotely kidding.

# ? Dec 11, 2014 11:52

dirtycajun: Aug 27, 2004; SUCKING DICKS AND SQUEEZING TITTIES

I feel really bored in 5e combat, and since our encounters group is big on that it kind of blows. What bothers me is that I don't see it getting much more interesting at any point, as a non fighter I am already at my second attack so I won't even be rolling dice more frequently.

I have a legit 5e question though involving reach weapons and people moving around within your reach:
My paladin has polearm master and mage slayer as feats. Mage Slayer lets me smack a spellcaster if they cast within 5ft. If I am wielding a polearm though my reach is 10ft and I can only hit them with an AoO if they leave my reach. This means that a mage can take a move action to move 5ft away from me but remain in my reach and cast a spell with impunity. As it is it seems like using a polearm in this build is a detriment and that makes me very sad.

Am I reading this right or should I be taking AoO as soon as the mage moves away from our base to base contact?

# ? Dec 11, 2014 15:39

Esser-Z: Jun 3, 2012

Holy gently caress, dirtycajun. I was just thinking about how I hadn't seen you in ages (at least, anywhere I go!). Good to see you're still kicking!

# ? Dec 11, 2014 15:55

Power Player: Oct 2, 2006; GOD SPEED YOU! HUNGRY MEXICAN

dirtycajun posted:

I feel really bored in 5e combat, and since our encounters group is big on that it kind of blows. What bothers me is that I don't see it getting much more interesting at any point, as a non fighter I am already at my second attack so I won't even be rolling dice more frequently.

I feel the same way. What's really funny I mentioned off-hand how I miss 4E, and someone was like "too much of a tactical board game", and then had no problem doing four combat encounters back to back. I just don't get it.

# ? Dec 11, 2014 16:48

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

I wrote a short guide for myself to compile all of the Actions and conditions and Next-specific terms into a single document, and also to write-up level 1 character examples for quick character creation and kind of got carried away. Maybe someone will find it useful. Feedback would be appreciated

gradenko_2000 fucked around with this message at 21:28 on Dec 11, 2014

# ? Dec 11, 2014 21:14

Elector_Nerdlingen: Sep 27, 2004

dirtycajun posted:

I have a legit 5e question though involving reach weapons and people moving around within your reach:
My paladin has polearm master and mage slayer as feats. Mage Slayer lets me smack a spellcaster if they cast within 5ft. If I am wielding a polearm though my reach is 10ft and I can only hit them with an AoO if they leave my reach. This means that a mage can take a move action to move 5ft away from me but remain in my reach and cast a spell with impunity. As it is it seems like using a polearm in this build is a detriment and that makes me very sad.

Am I reading this right or should I be taking AoO as soon as the mage moves away from our base to base contact?

Let's see....

PHB p168 posted:

Mage Slayer...

*When a creature within 5 feet of you casts a spell, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against that creature.

Doesn't say "reach" or "melee range" (or "opportunity attack", actually).

What does the book say about reach in general?

PHB p147 posted:

Reach. This weapon adds 5 feet to your reach when you attack with it.

PHB p195 posted:

Used in hand-to-hand combat, a melee attack allows you to attack a foe within your reach.

...

Most creatures have a 5-foot reach and can thus attack targets with in 5 feet of them when making a melee attack. Certain creatures (typically those larger than Medium ) have melee attacks with a greater reach than 5 feet, as noted in their descriptions.

And opportunity attacks?

PHB p195 posted:

You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach.

Doesn't say "...or moves within your reach". For what it's worth, I guess this will generally work out in favour of the PCs.

So yeah, a wizard standing next to you can move back 5' and cast so that Mage Slayer doesn't activate and they don't provoke OA. Which is dumb as hell, yeah.

Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Dec 11, 2014

# ? Dec 11, 2014 21:32

OfChristandMen: Feb 14, 2006; GENERIC CANDY AVATAR #2

gradenko_2000 posted:

I wrote a short guide for myself to compile all of the Actions and conditions and Next-specific terms into a single document, and also to write-up level 1 character examples for quick character creation and kind of got carried away. Maybe someone will find it useful. Feedback would be appreciated

This is very cool, forwarded it to my players because as much as I've played of 5th so far, specifics still elude us (Concentration Checks/Grappling).

For dirtycajun, I would just suggest asking your DM to make Mage Slayer count as "Casts Spell within Reach" rather than 5ft. Just seems like a narrow oversight on WotC's part.

OfChristandMen fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Dec 11, 2014

# ? Dec 11, 2014 21:49

Gerdalti: May 24, 2003; SPOON!

A few questions about actions and bonus actions.

Does a bonus action have to be a bonus action? Could you do 2 "bonus actions" in a single combat round by using your action?

I want to cast 2 spells in one round, both spells are "bonus action".

Is quaffing a potion an action or a bonus action?

# ? Dec 11, 2014 22:08

Garl_Grimm: Apr 13, 2005

AlphaDog posted:

So yeah, a wizard standing next to you can move back 5' and cast so that Mage Slayer doesn't activate and they don't provoke OA. Which is dumb as hell, yeah.

But 5 foot steps are a thing of the past, so backing away would draw the OA.

# ? Dec 11, 2014 22:19

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

for the polearm thing:

If this was 4E it would work this way. Reach adds +5 feet reach when you attack with it, you don't exist in a constant state of +5 foot reach. Polearm Master makes them provoke when they enter your adjacent square then, and when they leave your adjacent square they also provoke. You can make attacks with a space between you and your foe though.

Mage Slayer should probably say Reach not 5 feet though.

Garl: He is saying if the polearm made your reach 10 feet instead of being +5 feet "when you attack".

Frankly this whole edition has badly writing wording so hey guess what its RULINGS NOT RULES play the way YOU feel Polearm Master and Reach should work!!

# ? Dec 11, 2014 22:24

ImpactVector: Feb 24, 2007; HAHAHAHA FOOLS!!
I AM SO SMART!

Uh oh. What did he do now?; Nap Ghost

Garl_Grimm posted:

But 5 foot steps are a thing of the past, so backing away would draw the OA.

PHB p195 posted:

You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach.

If you have a 10' reach, technically they only provoke when they move 15' away.

# ? Dec 11, 2014 22:24

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# ? May 15, 2024 16:54

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

Lets ask Mike Mearls and he can post about how he spent his lunch break swinging a broom around the D&D offices and its time to make some changes to the rules...

# ? Dec 11, 2014 22:27

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