Rucksack 2K14 posted:Arkansas Governor Mike Beebe, who has resisted multiple petitions to pardon the men based on faulty trials and new analysis of evidence, recently granted an official pardon to his son after a marijuana possession charge. loving unbelievable. Well, totally believable, but it should be unbelievable. Thanks for the book link.
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Dec 7, 2014 11:49
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There seems to be this thing in American justice that nobody seems to be able to admit to their mistakes. There's so many cases I've seen in which the convicted is /are clearly innocent of the crime they've been accused of, and like the west Memphis three, even if they're freed it's with the caveat that they're still guilty. I'm listening to that serial podcast someone kindly linked a few days ago, and, even though the case is new to me, it all sounds very familiar.
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Dec 7, 2014 15:34
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True story: many Americans believe that it's impossible for a false conviction to happen. My father believes that exoneration is a "technicality" that lets guilty people go free and that even if a person was mistakenly arrested they are still probably guilty of something because otherwise the police wouldn't have gone after them. Like, he doesn't believe a trial can wrongly convict someone, though he does think guilty people can go free. It's all really quite terrifying when the Protestant work ethic meets the just world fallacy.
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Dec 7, 2014 15:52
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Some of it is probably because district attorney (and maybe some others) is often an elected position. So they'll go out of their way to make sure they get reelected. Which usually means getting convictions at all costs so they have good numbers they can trot out come election time and never ever admitting to mistakes that might make them look bad. The general public usually doesn't give a poo poo because they just look for someone who's "tough on crime," which in my experience means "don't pay attention to anything that *criminal* says, lock 'em up and throw away the key."
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Dec 7, 2014 16:16
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Yeah I've always found it odd that such an important position in law is voted in. I also think the practice of encouraging an accused guy to grass leads to all sorts of problems. There was one in particular, which I can't find now, where an innocent guy grasses on five other guys for a murder none of them committed. I think he was a sailor but idk. I'll find it. Found it as soon as I remembered the sailor bit : https://www.norfolkfour.com stickyfngrdboy has a new favorite as of 16:25 on Dec 7, 2014 |
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Dec 7, 2014 16:22
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stickyfngrdboy posted:There seems to be this thing in American justice that nobody seems to be able to admit to their mistakes. There's so many cases I've seen in which the convicted is /are clearly innocent of the crime they've been accused of, and like the west Memphis three, even if they're freed it's with the caveat that they're still guilty. The reason for the Alford plea is so that they are unable to sue the state.
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Dec 7, 2014 21:45
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nocal posted:The reason for the Alford plea is so that they are unable to sue the state. Yeah I understand the reasoning behind it, but that doesn't make it any better. It might even make it worse. We can't admit we were wrong because even though it cost this man, or these men, a whole poo poo load of their lives, it might cost us some money if we admit fault and say sorry. Incredible.
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Dec 7, 2014 21:54
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Apologies if this has already been posted Nicholas Barclay goes missing after playing basketball with his friends one day. Three years later, authorities get a call saying Nicholas has been found living in a shelter in Spain. http://missingchildren.wikia.com/wiki/Nicholas_Barclay There is also a great Netflix documentary about this case called The Imposter that I highly suggest watching.
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Dec 10, 2014 09:11
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dirty nub posted:Apologies if this has already been posted I think it may have been posted before, but it's a truly bizarre case. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%A9d%C3%A9ric_Bourdin I don't think it's mentioned in any of the articles, but I recall reading about strong strong circumstantial evidence that when Nicholas was "found", his family accepted an obvious impostor back because they knew Nicholas had been killed by someone in the family.
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Dec 10, 2014 11:32
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stickyfngrdboy posted:I'm listening to that serial podcast someone kindly linked a few days ago, and, even though the case is new to me, it all sounds very familiar. I also started listening to Serial and I'm on episode 8 of 10 so far. I've really enjoyed listening to it for the same reasons I enjoy reading this thread. If anyone knows of any similar podcasts of similar quality I'd love the recommendations.
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Dec 10, 2014 12:41
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outlier posted:I think it may have been posted before, but it's a truly bizarre case. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%A9d%C3%A9ric_Bourdin Yeah there is a lot of weird stuff about the case Family takes in the guy and its so obvious it's not their kid. He becomes TV famous and everyone is basically saying it's not him but the family is swearing by it. Then there's the private detective who thinks the brother killed him but then the brother ODs before he can find anything out. The Netflix documentary has a lot of information from the point of view of the imposter even though he is unreliable it's a pretty scary situation once he figures out some family members know his bluff and they play along anyway.
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Dec 10, 2014 20:36
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I'm gonna go ahead and play devil's advocate here -- what if the West Memphis Three are guilty of the crime? It's my personal opinion that they should never have been found guilty (not enough evidence, too much reasonable doubt), but there are questions that go unanswered and are suspicious. -Jesse Misskelley Jr. confessed. It's widely believed that this was after a day of interrogation with no access to a lawyer, etc, but that's not the case -- he confessed after a couple of hours. And he did not just confess to the police. He kept confessing, to his lawyer, to the police who took him to the trial, to other people. His confession remained consistent. Even after he was told to shut his mouth by his counsel, basically, he kept admitting to the crimes. (There are, however, major discrepancies in the 'official' testimony, such as him mentioning rope, not knowing what time the boys went missing, etc.) -None of the three teens had alibis. Jesse was allegedly wrestling one town over, but this was never proven. Damien and Jason's whereabouts could not be accounted for. -Witnesses reported two people heading away from the crime scene, down the highway, covered in mud. One matched Damien's description, and the other was said to be his girlfriend, but could have been Jason. -Damien had extensive mental health issues, which had lead him to be put under observation on more than one occasion. His own mother kicked him out of the house because she was worried for the safety of her family. When on the ward, he attacked another patient, scratching him, and spoke about blood giving him power. These are just a couple of examples that throw a question mark over the whole thing, for me. I find that a lot of people watch the WM3 documentaries, of which there are four now, and don't do any further research. Read the court documents, the transcripts, all the evidence. Just as there are support sites, there are also sites that drat the trio. You should take both with a grain of salt and make up your own mind, but don't watch the biased documentaries and think 'wow, those kids got slammed for being different'. It goes deeper than that. Again, I disagree with the verdict -- but I believe the trio were capable. Unfortunately, I think we'll never know who killed those poor kids.
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Dec 10, 2014 20:48
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Shamelessly stolen from a buzzfeed list: Sailing Stones - Neat phenomenon that was eventually explained. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailing_stones Carl Tanzler - Removes one of his late patients from her tomb and lives with her for several years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Tanzler The Toxic Lady - Nurses become ill after interacting with a woman in hospital for cancer surgery http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloria_Ramirez
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Dec 10, 2014 21:18
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Good News Everyone posted:I'm gonna go ahead and play devil's advocate here -- what if the West Memphis Three are guilty of the crime? They're not. Good News Everyone posted:-Jesse Misskelley Jr. confessed. There's a reason most normal countries don't use confessions, especially confessions which don't actually fit the evidence, as, well, evidence. Good News Everyone posted:-None of the three teens had alibis. Jesse was allegedly wrestling one town over, but this was never proven. Damien and Jason's whereabouts could not be accounted for. How many times a week do you think most people have no alibi? There has to be more than, well, they could have been there. No alibi, plus something else, something of evidential value, and that something else can't be a confession. Good News Everyone posted:-Witnesses reported two people heading away from the crime scene, down the highway, covered in mud. One matched Damien's description, and the other was said to be his girlfriend, but could have been Jason. Is this a real argument? Well we saw two people, both covered in mud, one of whom looked kinda like this guy, and the other looked like this guy or maybe this girl? Not sure but it looks bad for the accused with witnesses like this... Good News Everyone posted:-Damien had extensive mental health issues, which had lead him to be put under observation on more than one occasion. His own mother kicked him out of the house because she was worried for the safety of her family. When on the ward, he attacked another patient, scratching him, and spoke about blood giving him power. None of which has any relevance to the case. It's a case which worked for the prosecution because of emotion and fear. Somebody knows who killed those boys, and they'll get away with it because the police and prosecution built their case around their initial, and incorrect, beliefs, rather than the evidence they had.
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Dec 10, 2014 21:25
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Another interesting case to read about is that of Rubin Carter, whose eventual release from jail on two separate murder convictions was somewhat accurately portrayed in the movie The Hurricane. He's also the man that Bob Dylan wrote about, though I've heard Dylan disassociated himself after learning a bit more about him and the incident in question. Unlike the West Memphis Three, it seems like there was quite a lot of very convincing evidence against him.
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Dec 10, 2014 21:51
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Good News Everyone posted:I'm gonna go ahead and play devil's advocate here On the other hand, there's a potential bite mark, and it doesn't match any of the Three. Where things get hinky is that the stepfather of one of the victims had all his teeth removed after the first trial (and his reasons why aren't consistent) and admitted to spanking the kid hard enough to have left the imprint of a belt buckle on the kid. This is the same guy who claimed that a knife he gave to the makers of Paradise Lost had never been used, then only once to cut deer meat, then that he must have cut himself on it once it was proven that the blood on it was human. That alone is stronger implication than "didn't have an alibi", a confession that has impossible elements, a witness who saw two people (only of whom matched one of the three suspects, the other of whom couldn't even be identified by gender), or mental illness.
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Dec 10, 2014 21:51
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Kugyou no Tenshi posted:On the other hand, there's a potential bite mark, and it doesn't match any of the Three. Where things get hinky is that the stepfather of one of the victims had all his teeth removed after the first trial (and his reasons why aren't consistent) and admitted to spanking the kid hard enough to have left the imprint of a belt buckle on the kid. Since John Mark Byers switched to supporting the WM3 he's no longer really pushed as a suspect, although the wifes death is suspicious as gently caress imho, Terry Hobbs seems to be the most suspicious at the moment based on his dna in the shoelace, ex-wife statements, no alibi etc
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Dec 10, 2014 22:18
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stickyfngrdboy posted:
I can sense you feel pretty strongly about the case, and hey, I understand why. But yes, Damien's mental health did have relevance to the case, because the defense introduced his records as evidence. If you'd read the case and trial files, you'd know this. As I said, it's just a tragedy all around. I agree with you that somebody knows, and somebody will get away with it.
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Dec 10, 2014 22:58
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jalopybrown posted:Since John Mark Byers switched to supporting the WM3 he's no longer really pushed as a suspect, although the wifes death is suspicious as gently caress imho, Terry Hobbs seems to be the most suspicious at the moment based on his dna in the shoelace, ex-wife statements, no alibi etc Fair enough - just pointing out that there's more damning "evidence" against someone who never spent a day behind bars than there is for the three people who were imprisoned for just over 18 years.
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Dec 10, 2014 22:58
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Kugyou no Tenshi posted:Fair enough - just pointing out that there's more damning "evidence" against someone who never spent a day behind bars than there is for the three people who were imprisoned for just over 18 years. John Mark Byers had a solid alibi at the time of the murders, and co-operated fully with police investigation, voluntarily giving his DNA and submitting to questioning repeatedly. He was a suspect, as you say, for his erratic behaviour. But I think he's just a few fries short of a happy meal, at the end of the day. (Edit: His wife did die in suspicious circumstances later, and he has been in trouble with the law a few times for petty crime.) I don't think the crime could have been committed by one person. Three eight year old kids? It probably was someone they knew and feared -- like Terry Hobbs -- but how did he manage to murder all three, alone?
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Dec 10, 2014 23:18
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Good News Everyone posted:I can sense you feel pretty strongly about the case, and hey, I understand why. But yes, Damien's mental health did have relevance to the case, because the defense introduced his records as evidence. If you'd read the case and trial files, you'd know this. I meant the examples you used (what he said about blood, how his mother treated him) are irrelevant in proving his guilt. Nothing you posted, alone or together, are indicative of guilt, and all of it together read like a conspiracy theorists case file. The reason the films on the subject are so one sided is that there's only one logical way to approach the case, and the logical way isn't by mentioning poor eyewitness accounts, or that the lads had no alibi.
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Dec 10, 2014 23:22
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Good News Everyone posted:John Mark Byers had a solid alibi at the time of the murders, and co-operated fully with police investigation, voluntarily giving his DNA and submitting to questioning repeatedly. He was a suspect, as you say, for his erratic behaviour. And yet (apart from the alibi) he's a stronger suspect by the actual evidence than a goth boy who was targeted largely because people were sure this was a ritualistic Satanic murder and goths do those, one of his friends, and a mentally-challenged guy they sort of knew who "confessed" of impossible acts being performed at times they couldn't have. I'm not saying Byers did it. I'm saying that even as a non-suspect, Byers is a better candidate for "suspect" than the WM3.
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Dec 10, 2014 23:32
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Good News Everyone posted:I'm gonna go ahead and play devil's advocate here -- what if the West Memphis Three are guilty of the crime?
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Dec 10, 2014 23:52
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Jack Gladney posted:Misskelley was retarded and should never been interrogated. The crime is staged as a serial killer would stage it, not like an occult killing would happen. Also there has never been a single confirmed ritualistic occult murder because it's a stupid moral panic and the dumb hick police in that backwater shithole bungled the case because they were so afraid of the devil. Misskelley was not retarded (not smart, either -- his IQ was borderline), but I feel he was not treated properly at the police station at all. He asked for his father, asked to go home; he was interrogated for hours but only a few minutes are recorded. The only thing that makes me wonder about Misskelley is that he repeatedly confessed. But you're absolutely right -- basing the motive on 'satanic ritual' is absolutely ludicrous and without any solid foundation whatsoever. I cannot believe a jury bought it. I cannot believe they listened to the testimony of a man who got his degree online. And then Judge Barnett said that 'anyone can be an expert' basically, that they didn't need credentials. What a loving joke.
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Dec 11, 2014 00:26
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Good News Everyone posted:what if the West Memphis Three are guilty of the crime? And what if the CIA killed Kennedy and faked the moon landing?
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Dec 11, 2014 02:46
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Good News Everyone posted:Unfortunately, I think we'll never know who killed those poor kids. Not the loving WM3, that's pretty obvious.
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Dec 11, 2014 03:21
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GIANT OUIJA BOARD posted:And what if the CIA killed Kennedy and faked the moon landing? Actually, the CIA faked Kennedy and killed the moon landing.
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Dec 11, 2014 06:39
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LaughMyselfTo posted:Actually, the CIA faked Kennedy and killed the moon landing.
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Dec 11, 2014 07:00
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Good News Everyone posted:The only thing that makes me wonder about Misskelley is that he repeatedly confessed. I linked a transcript of his recording with various literally impossible things that he "confessed" to pointed out, as well as parts of the "confession" where he was obviously coached into saying he came back and saw more after he said he left, and a part where the cops literally "corrected" his statements when he was saying things that didn't fit their timeline of the crime. His entire "confession" is tainted by the events in that transcript, repeated or no.
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Dec 11, 2014 07:19
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Good News Everyone posted:Misskelley was not retarded (not smart, either -- his IQ was borderline), but I feel he was not treated properly at the police station at all. He asked for his father, asked to go home; he was interrogated for hours but only a few minutes are recorded. The only thing that makes me wonder about Misskelley is that he repeatedly confessed. He has an IQ of 70: 69 or below qualifies for disability services and qualifies as an exemption from the death penalty. I have no problem believing he was led to say everything in his confession and that he was incapable of understanding what he was saying.
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Dec 11, 2014 07:41
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I understand that my posts aren't popular opinion, but at least I'm posting content. And I can say that I have read the court documents and transcripts; have you guys? Or are you basing your replies on the documentaries? All I am saying is read up on it, it's interesting. I think they were capable, but then again, so were a number of people. I'm highly undecided. Bottom line, they should never have been convicted based on the 'evidence' put forward, I do strongly believe that. There was a huge amount of reasonable doubt. Getting off that topic, I always found this super creepy, for some reason. The graffiti creeps me out. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_put_Bella_in_the_Wych_Elm%3F
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Dec 11, 2014 17:26
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Jack Gladney posted:He has an IQ of 70: 69 or below qualifies for disability services and qualifies as an exemption from the death penalty. I have no problem believing he was led to say everything in his confession and that he was incapable of understanding what he was saying. Yea it seems fairly common with false confession cases that the person had low enough intelligence to where they didn't understand that confessing means they will be in jail for a long time. I think in one of the Paradise Lost movies Misskelley said he thought at the time that if telling the truth wasn't working then the only way to be allowed to go home must be to just say what they want me to say. Innocent people with low intelligence don't seem to be able to put it together that the cops don't believe they are innocent are looking to close the case above all else. A lot of times you'll even hear convicts of normal intelligence say stuff like "Well I knew I didn't do it, so I couldn't even wrap my head around the idea that I might actually get convicted." A person with Misskelley's IQ could have had that kind of childlike innocent quality but dialed up to 11.
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Dec 11, 2014 18:43
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Good News Everyone posted:I understand that my posts aren't popular opinion, but at least I'm posting content. And I can say that I have read the court documents and transcripts; have you guys? Let me repeat to you one more time: I linked a transcript of Misskelley's "confession", annotated with the examples of police coercion, impossible acts, and impossible times. If you can't even be bothered to skim that, you're posting noise, not "content".
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Dec 11, 2014 20:25
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Kugyou no Tenshi posted:Let me repeat to you one more time: I linked a transcript of Misskelley's "confession", annotated with the examples of police coercion, impossible acts, and impossible times. If you can't even be bothered to skim that, you're posting noise, not "content". I listened to the audio file on the page you linked, which made it even worse.
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Dec 11, 2014 20:29
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stickyfngrdboy posted:I listened to the audio file on the page you linked, which made it even worse. You're a braver goon than I. After reading a few of the annotations, I don't think I could have taken actually hearing it.
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Dec 11, 2014 20:59
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It made me pretty angry, it's one thing to read it but to hear police officers coercing things out of that boy is incredible. I laughed out loud at the number of times he said 'and then i went home' and the cop said 'yeah but when you went back again what did you see?' and the kid makes more poo poo up. Mental.
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Dec 11, 2014 21:03
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Kugyou no Tenshi posted:Let me repeat to you one more time: I linked a transcript of Misskelley's "confession", annotated with the examples of police coercion, impossible acts, and impossible times. If you can't even be bothered to skim that, you're posting noise, not "content". I didn't 'skim' it, I've read it before. I've also read the notes from when he re-confessed to his attorney, eight days later. And then when he did it again, two months later. And then when he confessed to the officers on his way to prison, after being sentenced. And then when he confessed to the prosecutors. I'm not saying he is guilty based on this confession, because as we all know, it has numerous holes in it. But why did he continually confess to anyone who would listen?
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Dec 12, 2014 02:36
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Good News Everyone posted:But why did he continually confess to anyone who would listen? Because his IQ is only a few points higher than yours.
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Dec 12, 2014 02:56
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How about a town in Oklahoma where children used to play on hills of lead-tainted debris? The city was founded in 1920 and shut down in 2009 after lead mining ruined the groundwater, stirred up lead dust that would coat houses inside and out, and left a third of the children with developmental delays/disorders due to ingestion. I saw it on a series about abandoned towns, and it looks like a creepy place to wander around.
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Dec 12, 2014 02:59
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Rucksack 2K14 posted:How about a town in Oklahoma where children used to play on hills of lead-tainted debris? The city was founded in 1920 and shut down in 2009 after lead mining ruined the groundwater, stirred up lead dust that would coat houses inside and out, and left a third of the children with developmental delays/disorders due to ingestion. I passed through that godforsaken place on Highway 69 earlier this year. I'll allow you to arrive at your own conclusion as to whether I meant Picher or the State of Oklahoma
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Dec 12, 2014 03:33
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