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cams posted:I want to pick on this one cause I had this same thought early when I was going through it, but as it went on I started to really understand. The guy is in prison. He does not think he is getting out. I do not think he is "playing a character".
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Dec 11, 2014 13:08
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I'm only halfway in but so far this is basically a reddit thread. Dissociation, amnesia, psychopathy, rumors. Definitely quality reporting but nothing new again. Maybe this is the extent of what the producers know, as well.
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Dec 11, 2014 13:20
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Just finished it. I liked the episode; I really liked it when Adnan said that people expected him to be either a victim or a monster but he is just a guy. It fit nicely with the theme of the episode. Anyway, we are at the end guys. I'm eagerly waiting for the finale and for people to complain about the ending like the ending to Lost, BSG or True Detective.
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Dec 11, 2014 13:27
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Kojiro posted:I do hate that "this is how a human should/should not act in these circumstances" thing. People are all different, brains are weird, who the hell knows in advance how they would react to this and that? It's such thin speculation, it deserves no time in court. Also Adnan has been in prison longer than he was ever a free man. Meaning he has more memories of prison than he does of being on the outside. Not sure I would be emotional about anything after that long inside.
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Dec 11, 2014 13:46
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All of you people (or is it the people from Slate and AV Club doing a Serial podcast) are going to be so disappointed when the season ends next week without a resolution.
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Dec 11, 2014 13:52
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I don't know what anyone expected. They were never going to 'solve' the case.
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Dec 11, 2014 13:56
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There might be a resolution but it sure ain't coming with an episode of Serial.
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Dec 11, 2014 14:09
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PaganGoatPants posted:Also Adnan has been in prison longer than he was ever a free man. Meaning he has more memories of prison than he does of being on the outside. Not sure I would be emotional about anything after that long inside. It actually comes up in the new episode, people asking why he doesn't act more angry about Jay. It was fifteen years ago, you simply can't remain angry for that long.
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Dec 11, 2014 14:50
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That felt like an astonishingly weak episode, although I did learn something about SK and confirmed a suspicion that I had from the start: SK accepted the state's case in toto and that, to her, the 12 episodes are intended to examine how a 'nice boy' could have strangled his ex-girlfriend. In an earlier episode, she recounts Adnan's frustration in dealing with questions about the case, namely, the many people who constantly tell him, "you couldn't have done it because you were such a good/nice/decent etc," rather than "you couldn't have done it because of weaknesses in the evidence and the case." Hidden in the first comment is the implicit acceptance that Adnan killed Hae and that the person who is questioning Adnan is looking for that one character flaw or mistake or idiosyncrasy, etc. that would allow them to clear their doubts by finally and permanently undermining Adnan's character; something that would allow you to walk away and say, "Ah ha! This proves Adnan isn't a 'nice boy'! He is a killer after all!" SK appears to be ignorant of the image she is projecting to Adnan and either blind to or unmindful of Adnan's irritation with the attempts to undermine his character with his own words. In a way, this episode has been the most significant to date and is the climax of the entire series. In episode 11 SK finally uncovers the flaw that will allow her to square her acceptance of the case against Adnan with her knowledge of Adnan as a person. Adnan has recognized this too, his 'pushback' is evidence of that; he now understands that for SK, his guilt has been sealed not by any piece of evidence or even character testimony contemporary with the crime, but by admitted thefts dating back to his time in middle school. bedpan fucked around with this message at 15:02 on Dec 11, 2014 |
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Dec 11, 2014 14:56
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^ I hadn't really thought of it that way until this episode but you're absolutely right. All the whodunit stuff and indictments of the justice system are secondary to the story Sarah Koenig has been building here about the nice boy who did the bad thing. It makes a lot of the subjects she focuses on a lot less frustrating in retrospect.Josh Lyman posted:All of you people (or is it the people from Slate and AV Club doing a Serial podcast) are going to be so disappointed when the season ends next week without a resolution. I feel like almost everyone who's talked about Serial has had some clause resembling "there's probably no satisfying ending to this" somewhere in their discussion. I haven't listened to the Slate podcast but all the AV Club people say that multiple times. No one's really gonna be shocked when that turns out to be true.
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Dec 11, 2014 15:34
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You have to be pretty ignorant about the glacial pace and unrelenting hosed up nature of the US justice system to actually have expected any resolution from this podcast beyond "gee I really wonder what happened".
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Dec 11, 2014 16:09
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BBC World Service's Trending had a segment about the reddit investigations: http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/trends The segment starts at 10:20.
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Dec 11, 2014 16:28
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AtomD posted:BBC World Service's Trending had a segment about the reddit investigations: What's this bullshit about some nearby serial killer having done it? How the hell would Jay know where Hae's car was if it was some unrelated guy?
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Dec 11, 2014 16:32
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Maduo posted:^ I hadn't really thought of it that way until this episode but you're absolutely right. All the whodunit stuff and indictments of the justice system are secondary to the story Sarah Koenig has been building here about the nice boy who did the bad thing. It makes a lot of the subjects she focuses on a lot less frustrating in retrospect. Had 'Serial' been a work of fiction from the start, like a serialized, radio-drama detective story, I'd feel different that I do but 'Serial' as a work of nonfiction reporting on a real murder with real people makes me uncomfortable. The entire theme of the season, how a 'good person' can do a 'bad thing,' falls to pieces and ends up looking pretty ugly if the 'good person' didn't actually do the 'bad thing.' Maybe it is wrong or idealist of me but I hold journalists to a certain standard in terms of investigation and fact-checking. If you are releasing what you are describing as an 'unfold[ing] nonfiction story,' I see it as important you are confident in the 'nonfiction' part. There are very real concerns with the evidence presented and how the trial unfolded and also troubling is existence of exculpatory evidence and evidence that a key part of Jay's timeline simply could not have happened. SK mentions these, some of them, but almost in passing and she more or less skates by the problems with the story as presented; she dismisses significant weaknesses of the case against Adnan with a shrug or silence and is unwilling or unable to apply the same scrutiny with which she examines Adnan to the case as a whole. Were I the author behind Serial, I would not have maintained the narrative of 'why the good go bad' after so many uncertainties have been revealed and doubts raised and I think to do so was inappropriate in light of the material. If I were to accuse SK of anything it would be that she worked the evidence to fit the narrative and not the other way around. SK and the police investigators share the same philosophy: to work towards a conclusion already decided upon. The police were making the case against Adnan from day one, Adnan was their suspect and they were willing to extract four separate confessions from Jay and each time overlooking the omissions, errors, and lies unique to the confession at hand and the weight of these taken together. The conclusion had been accepted prior to the investigation and their work was to find the material, regardless of the quality, to support the conclusion. For SK, this entire season has been building to the moment in episode 11 where she confronts Adnan about the theft. She wanted the character flaw or a crime or a mistake that would let her say 'and so he is a murderer' and worked relentlessly towards uncovering something, anything, that would fit her predetermined end. Perversely, more important than a very real murder or a very possible wrongful conviction, is Adnan Seyed's theft of a few thousand dollars. SK spent 11 hours to tell us that a guy stole some money when he was in middle school (and therefore he is a murderer). bedpan fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Dec 11, 2014 |
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Dec 11, 2014 17:20
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Kojiro posted:What's this bullshit about some nearby serial killer having done it? If I recall, there was an honest to god serial killer who targeted Asian women operating in the same area at the time. Also, Hae's regular way to and from school took her right past the killer's (or maybe it was just the suspect killer's) house. Kojiro posted:How the hell would Jay know where Hae's car was if it was some unrelated guy? If you accept some less than morally appropriate police techniques there are at least two ways to this: 1. The car, having been previously found, is shown to Jay and his identification is massaged into Jay's foreknowledge of the car's location. 2. The police, (recall the question asked of someone 'Where would Adnan get rid of a car?') drive Jay around asking him, "Where is the car?" If his answer comes up dry he is asked again. Finally, the car is discovered and sure enough, Jay knew where the car was!
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Dec 11, 2014 17:31
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Kojiro posted:What's this bullshit about some nearby serial killer having done it? How the hell would Jay know where Hae's car was if it was some unrelated guy? As above, but a few more details from memory: 7 months before Hae was murdered, there was a girl from the same school strangled, her body buried in parkland. It's a very similar crime and ordinarily, you'd would absolutely look at linking the two. But as you say, Jay's testimony is the spanner in the works. Why would he be covering for a serial killer he has no connection to?
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Dec 11, 2014 17:39
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outlier posted:But as you say, Jay's testimony is the spanner in the works. Why would he be covering for a serial killer he has no connection to? Jay isn't covering for anyone but Jay. The police want a suspect to take to trial and if they can't have Adnan they will settle with Jay. Either Jay covers himself or he goes down for the murder. Also consider that Jay was represented, at the prosecutor's insistence and at state expense, with a lawyer in private practice who was the prosecutor's friend. Both lawyers worked on Jay to take the plea agreement and take the stand against Adnan. Jay was also lead to believe that he could have withdrawn from the plea agreement at any time without penalty, something that the actual text of the agreement contradicts. The plea agreement also contains provisions that should the state discover evidence pointing to duplicity on Jay's part, the agreement would be null and void. That last part is very important because the state already had proof positive, the greatest of which was Jay admitting to the police that he lied in previous confessions, to void the plea agreement. In short, should Jay prove recalcitrant or have a change of heart the state would 'discover' his lies and cancel the deal.
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Dec 11, 2014 17:57
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After this last episode, I'm pretty convinced there was no hidden part of this story to break loose. It was just a strange tale of a bizarre murder. This is just a story of how a trial can go horribly wrong based on a lot of factors that could lead a person with serious doubts of guilty into the slammer.
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Dec 11, 2014 18:18
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bedpan posted:For SK, this entire season has been building to the moment in episode 11 where she confronts Adnan about the theft. She wanted the character flaw or a crime or a mistake that would let her say 'and so he is a murderer' and worked relentlessly towards uncovering something, anything, that would fit her predetermined end. Perversely, more important than a very real murder or a very possible wrongful conviction, is Adnan Seyed's theft of a few thousand dollars. As I recall, the information about the mosque theft only came to light after the podcast had already started and people were calling in about what they knew.
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Dec 11, 2014 18:54
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CortezFantastic posted:After this last episode, I'm pretty convinced there was no hidden part of this story to break loose. It was just a strange tale of a bizarre murder. This is just a story of how a trial can go horribly wrong based on a lot of factors that could lead a person with serious doubts of guilty into the slammer. From the beginning, over everything else, "Serial" is an exploration into how there is no such thing as "justice".
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Dec 11, 2014 19:11
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 Oh Best Buy, not like this.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:16
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bedpan posted:If I recall, there was an honest to god serial killer who targeted Asian women operating in the same area at the time. Also, Hae's regular way to and from school took her right past the killer's (or maybe it was just the suspect killer's) house. Police documents show that they did not find the car until Jay took them to the row of houses the car was stashed. They have been looking for days, it would be strange to just happen to find the car the day that Jay came and talked to them. Also according to the legal documents, Jay knew the precise burial location and according to BPD they did not release the strangulation detail until after Jay told them how Adnan killed her.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:16
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Disappointing Pie posted:
Oh ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh noooooooooooooo
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Dec 11, 2014 22:23
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webmeister posted:
Guilty consciences don't make you tell the police your friend did it so that you can get off scot free. Consciences don't work like that....but guilt does.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:28
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Disappointing Pie posted:
Please tell me that's a Photoshop...
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Dec 11, 2014 22:28
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Rumda posted:Please tell me that's a Photoshop... http://blog.sfgate.com/hottopics/2014/12/11/best-buy-under-fire-for-serial-tweet/ Nope. It's still up on Best Buy's twitter account.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:29
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You are pathetically sensitive if you consider that in any way offensive
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Dec 11, 2014 22:32
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Rumda posted:Please tell me that's a Photoshop... It's not But yeah the enraging thing about jay is that he clearly knows something about what happened, but that fact is obfuscated by literally every point of his testimony being in contention besides the unequivocal truth that he knees where the car was And it's not just big stuff like how he whole cloth invented that conversation between him and adnan in his...second? Interview on the cliffs, or just stuff he conveniently forgets out of some sort of self-preservation tactic, there's just lies or easily disproven or ever changing "facts" within his base testimony, that even if he committed the murder by himself, he would have no reason to lie about, that make his entire testimony fall to pieces under even the slightest scrutiny There's literally no reason he would lie so repeatedly or so often or so brazenly, no single thread that makes the lies make any real sense unless he was significantly involved in killing hae and he's desperately grasping at straws to defend himself The dude is a bad loving liar, and his recollection of events isn't so much full of holes as a loose collection of holes in the shape of a testimony, and there's been no motive or explained reason to any of his lies beyond "he's badly trying to cover for himself"
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Dec 11, 2014 22:37
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ninjahedgehog posted:As I recall, the information about the mosque theft only came to light after the podcast had already started and people were calling in about what they knew. I feel like I can't trust some of that info. It's like reality TV, once something is popular people may remember or say things differently just to say, "Hey, I'm on that show!"
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Dec 11, 2014 22:48
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Koenig managed to destroy the most thoughtful aspects of Serial today, reducing the series to an anti-climactic, 40 minute milquetoast college freshman Psych101 "well, everyone has the capacity for evil!" episode. I wasn't expecting or seeking a resolution; no thoughtful listener would. But there are so many constructive venues she could have pursued, and she screwed it.
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Dec 12, 2014 04:29
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EATIN SHRIMP posted:You are pathetically sensitive if you consider that in any way offensive Completely agreed. It's ridiculous that Best Buy deleted that tweet and issued an apology.
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Dec 12, 2014 05:03
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Paul Kersey posted:Completely agreed. It's ridiculous that Best Buy deleted that tweet and issued an apology. For what? Spoilers?
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Dec 12, 2014 05:56
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Dec 12, 2014 06:07
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The ending isn't going to make people happy because it isn't going to be a definitive proof on whether he did or didn't do it. I don't see what any ending could be really. I thought about it ending with maybe some tidbit about Adnan's appeal going through to trial or the Innocence Project digging up something, but nothing sounds like anything that a podcast (even the world's most popular one) could keep secret with all the "internet sleuths" out there.
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Dec 12, 2014 06:11
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bedpan posted:For SK, this entire season has been building to the moment in episode 11 where she confronts Adnan about the theft. She wanted the character flaw or a crime or a mistake that would let her say 'and so he is a murderer' and worked relentlessly towards uncovering something, anything, that would fit her predetermined end. Nothing in this episode indicated to me that Koenig believes Adnan is guilty and tried to get him into some kind of trap. Since there isn't likely to be many more hard facts emerging about what happened in this murder case, a valid avenue to explore is the character of the involved parties. It seems to me that she was just investigating all possible leads into the content of Adnan's character, and I have no idea how you've read all this other stuff into it.
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Dec 12, 2014 06:22
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Bitchkrieg posted:Koenig managed to destroy the most thoughtful aspects of Serial today, reducing the series to an anti-climactic, 40 minute milquetoast college freshman Psych101 "well, everyone has the capacity for evil!" episode. I wouldn't go that far, but it was a wishy-washy aimless sort of episode. There are points where it stumbles across an interesting point (Adnan's protests at the beginning) but veers off to SK thinking aloud about her own thoughts.
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Dec 12, 2014 10:43
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Disappointing Pie posted:
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Dec 12, 2014 11:04
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That Best Buy tweet is a bit like if the Arizona Ice tea company or the people who made skittles tried to tweet a clever joke about Trayvon Martin liking their product during the height of the Zimmerman trial. Maybe it is funny, but at the end of the day its a corporation trying to market themselves using a real life murder. You kinda just shake your head from a public relation standpoint because you know people will be offended.
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Dec 12, 2014 11:55
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Bulkiest Toaster posted:but at the end of the day its a corporation trying to market themselves using a real life murder. You mean like WBEZ?
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Dec 12, 2014 14:00
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Bulkiest Toaster posted:That Best Buy tweet is a bit like if the Arizona Ice tea company or the people who made skittles tried to tweet a clever joke about Trayvon Martin liking their product during the height of the Zimmerman trial. Maybe it is funny, but at the end of the day its a corporation trying to market themselves using a real life murder. You kinda just shake your head from a public relation standpoint because you know people will be offended. Except it totally isn't, because it isn't a current affair. The trial was 15 years ago. The only people offended are literal pussies.
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Dec 12, 2014 14:03
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