|
repeating posted:As a reasonable human, you must be saying that you're ActusRhesus. Yeah that's fine with me as long as it protects public officials. You should have another cup of coffee and re-read the post you quoted. Politicians here in Illinois love to keep passing slightly changed laws that they know will be thrown out once they're challenged. None of them give a poo poo about the money that'll be paid out in lawsuits to people arrested using this law. Dum Cumpster fucked around with this message at 15:10 on Dec 11, 2014 |
#
?
Dec 11, 2014 15:04
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 23:22 |
|
|
Chomskyan posted:Yeah, nothing you've put forward is a good argument for why the US couldn't adopt the Norwegian model. The US is the wealthiest nation in the world, not only can it afford a more just and effective justice system, it can also afford a robust welfare system. Whether or not the US should be socialist is a whole different discussion though. My point was simply you can't take the Norwegian model and transplant it on the US one for one without making major structural changes to US society/economic model as a whole.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2014 15:39
|
|
|
Chomskyan posted:It's just that bombing impoverished villages half the world away is more important. I don't think you guys are actually disagreeing - it sounds like you understand a Norwegian prison system also isn't going to happen in the US given present social/economic circumstances. edit: god drat phone posting. this might as well be a double post.....
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2014 15:46
|
|
|
ActusRhesus posted:Whether or not the US should be socialist is a whole different discussion though. My point was simply you can't take the Norwegian model and transplant it on the US one for one without making major structural changes to US society/economic model as a whole. Aren't prisons specifically and the criminal justice system generally part of society and the economic model as a whole? I don't think that anyone is saying that implementing the Norwegian model for prisons would be a cure-all and we can wash our hands of further reform once that's done. Rather, the US society/economic model as a whole requires change (and I do believe that you said as much yourself), and modeling American prisons based on their Norwegian counterparts would be one aspect of that change. The problem with just dismissing reforms because the issues involved are more deeply rooted is that you have to start somewhere. Doing something about mass incarceration in hellish rape dungeons doesn't seem like a terrible place to start. AreWeDrunkYet fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Dec 11, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2014 16:25
|
|
|
AreWeDrunkYet posted:Aren't prisons specifically and the criminal justice system generally part of society and the economic model as a whole? I don't think that anyone is saying that implementing the Norwegian model for prisons would be a cure-all and we can wash our hands of further reform. Rather, the US society/economic model as a whole requires change (and I do believe that you said as much yourself), and modeling American prisons based on their Norwegian counterparts would be one aspect of that change. but part of what makes the Norweigan model work IN NORWAY is they have a radically different economic structure, social safety net, and societal values. (Plus a smaller population, different crime rates etc. etc.) You can't just take their prison system, and bring it to the US and expect it to work like it does in Norway without first making the US also more like Norway. But then we aren't talking prison reform, we're talking societal overhaul.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2014 16:27
|
|
|
Chomskyan posted:Yeah, nothing you've put forward is a good argument for why the US couldn't adopt the Norwegian model. The US is the wealthiest nation in the world, not only can it afford a more just and effective justice system, it can also afford a robust welfare system. But in the meantime, somebody has to do the job of clapping people into prison and cycles of recidivism and generational failure. THAT'S A JOB SOMEBODY HAS TO DO DAMMIT
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2014 16:34
|
|
|
Well you see criminals have no agency therefore if you put them in jail without enacting my idea of prison and societal reform YOU are the real criminal.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2014 16:54
|
|
|
repeating posted:As a reasonable human, you must be saying that you're ActusRhesus. Yeah that's fine with me as long as it protects public officials. Are you drunk?
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2014 17:00
|
|
|
ActusRhesus posted:but part of what makes the Norweigan model work IN NORWAY is they have a radically different economic structure, social safety net, and societal values. (Plus a smaller population, different crime rates etc. etc.) I don't think there has been a single poster that said we need to reform the prison system and do nothing else, and society will magically fix itself. 'Societal overhaul' is absolutely necessary (and again, you've agreed to as much yourself by citing poverty, etc as drivers of crime), and reforming the prison system specifically and the criminal justice system generally is a part of that process. There are many parts to that process, but this is one of them, and in many ways is especially necessary because of the acute problems created by racially disparate mass imprisonment in horrifying conditions. To put it another way, your argument would basically lead to no reform ever. Every issue has varying root causes and interconnects with other issues. To say that it's impossible to address or reform any individual element of the system as a whole without a complete overhaul is resigning yourself to the status quo indefinitely. Which is fine I guess if the status quo is working for you, but the growing population of people being sentenced to unreasonably long stretches in the rape dungeons that are most prisons may disagree with your ambivalence. AreWeDrunkYet fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Dec 11, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2014 17:47
|
|
|
AreWeDrunkYet posted:I don't think there has been a single poster that said we need to reform the prison system and do nothing else, and society will magically fix itself. 'Societal overhaul' is absolutely necessary (and again, you've agreed to as much yourself by citing poverty, etc as drivers of crime), and reforming the prison system specifically and the criminal justice system generally is a part of that process. There are many parts to that process, but this is one of them, and in many ways is especially necessary because of the acute problems created by racially disparate mass imprisonment in horrifying conditions. Except that's not what I said. There are a lot of reforms that fall short of "transplanting a European model" so suggesting I oppose any reform is simply inaccurate. And actually, some posters have suggested just adopting a European model. Which would not work because we are not Europe. Now, we can debate whether or not we *should* be more like Europe. But until we are, we can't graft a European model onto and American system, any more than we can graft an American jury model onto pretty much every other country in the world.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2014 18:04
|
|
|
I don't think anyone said just straight up translating norway's prison code and building blueprints and copy pasting it into the US. Just that that's a good model to be moving towards gradually, with step one maybe being "stop all the state condoned rapes and assaults". People seem to be misinterpreting or being obtuse just for the sake of sustaining a passionate prison argument. There are two sides in this debate, Actus who wants everyone in prison and tortured forever, and all the cop and victim hating bleeding heart extremists who want no one in prison ever and criminals to be hugged and massaged until they are too happy and relaxed to commit any crimes. Those are the two positions in this discussion so just feel free to read between the lines and interpret all posts as supporting one of those two positions.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2014 18:32
|
|
|
Baronjutter posted:I don't think anyone said just straight up translating norway's prison code and building blueprints and copy pasting it into the US. Just that that's a good model to be moving towards gradually, with step one maybe being "stop all the state condoned rapes and assaults". I didn't see some of the posts as suggesting all that gradual a change. I saw it as more: the US could have Norway's system right now...they just don't want it. See e.g. Chomskyan posted:Yeah, nothing you've put forward is a good argument for why the US couldn't adopt the Norwegian model. The US is the wealthiest nation in the world, not only can it afford a more just and effective justice system, it can also afford a robust welfare system. When you are talking about fundamentally transforming a country, that doesn't really happen all that quickly. I agree with you that most rational people who would want to see a European model acknowledge it would not happen overnight. But you have to understand why I may see some in this thread as not particularly rational, and therefore don't give them that benefit of the doubt.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2014 18:41
|
|
|
Does anyone have any experience with inquisitional justice systems like the French one? In theory, they sound more fair, but in practice, I can't imagine that the judges wouldn't just get led by the nose by the investigating police.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2014 22:02
|
|
|
PostNouveau posted:Does anyone have any experience with inquisitional justice systems like the French one? I have some experience with Japan and Iraq. Iraq is built a lot off of Egypt, which is modeled a lot after France. As I understand it, the "judge" (magistrate) in that system functions a lot more like police, and actually orders the police around. However, it's not adversarial, so it's not "the police vs." it's more "let's find out what happened. there were a lot of other issues with the Iraqi system, but I did get the sense the judges were genuinely interested in getting to "the truth." The problem though, is once the magistrate judge decided what "the truth" was, it was pretty bullet proof before the trial panel. Very limited checks or meaningful appellate rights. Japan seemed to just rubber stamp whatever the police did. I think there are merits to both the adversarial system and the inquisitorial system. In the adversarial system, the defendant has more rights, and more opportunity to proactively impact his case rather than just waiting to take whatever fate gives him. In the inquisitorial system you see less of an "us vs. them" environment with your courts.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2014 22:10
|
|
|
ActusRhesus posted:In the inquisitorial system you see less of an "us vs. them" environment with your courts. Is this supposed to be a pro?
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 01:04
|
|
|
ActusRhesus posted:I think there are merits to both the adversarial system and the inquisitorial system. In the adversarial system, the defendant has more rights, and more opportunity to proactively impact his case rather than just waiting to take whatever fate gives him. In the inquisitorial system you see less of an "us vs. them" environment with your courts. Are you sure you don't mean that there is a different "us" and a different "them"? Because as far as I know, inmates in France, Japan and Iraq would be able to identify a "them" who was set against their interests.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 02:18
|
|
|
SedanChair posted:Are you sure you don't mean that there is a different "us" and a different "them"? Because as far as I know, inmates in France, Japan and Iraq would be able to identify a "them" who was set against their interests. Goddamn you're nitpicky. This doesn't change the message behind what she said at all and you're just really, really trying you get one over at all costs.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 03:00
|
|
|
Cole posted:Goddamn you're nitpicky. This doesn't change the message behind what she said at all and you're just really, really trying you get one over at all costs. Are you really complaining about me "nitpicking" what a prosecutor admires about the legal system of Iraq?
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 03:07
|
|
|
SedanChair posted:Are you really complaining about me "nitpicking" what a prosecutor admires about the legal system of Iraq? My comment was addressing the inquisitorial system in general...which is, you know...most of the world.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 03:09
|
|
|
Sedanchair please stop posting things
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 03:48
|
|
|
SedanChair posted:Are you really complaining about me "nitpicking" what a prosecutor admires about the legal system of Iraq? Are you playing a character or something?
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 04:28
|
|
|
GENDERWEIRD GREEDO posted:Are you playing a character or something? I'm kind of operating under the assumption he has multiple personality disorder. It's the only way to reconcile a lot of his posts.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 04:32
|
|
|
ActusRhesus posted:I'm kind of operating under the assumption he has multiple personality disorder. It's the only way to reconcile a lot of his posts. Did you have some particular inconsistency in mind?
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 06:06
|
|
|
Some undercover cops got busted as provocateurs at the Oakland protests over Garner/Brown. Somebody shoved one of them and that led to this horrifying photo: Edit: Before anyone asks, yes, he has trigger discipline. 
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 08:53
|
|
|
PostNouveau posted:Some undercover cops got busted as provocateurs at the Oakland protests over Garner/Brown. Somebody shoved one of them and that led to this horrifying photo: An interesting point here is that the cops are California Highway Patrol which is normally called in for backup in Oakland (and even patrols in Oakland off highway). They had been surveilling the protestors to gain info about their movements towards blocking highways (among other things of course) and had been wearing masks (the officer on the ground still is). I wonder if coordination between agencies during protests is still as haphazard as it has been?
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 09:23
|
|
|
http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2014/12/graffiti_artist_demz_dies_from_injuries_after_police_car_ran_him_over_in_wy.php Cops his graffiti artist with his car, police claim he "jumped out." They then go on to say later that they regret he lost hours life because of a poor decision to run. From an unmarked, undercover car. quote:The Herald reports that Rodriguez's family has accused Ortiz of behaving callously after the accident by showing up at the hospital and suggesting Demz shouldn't have run from the cops.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 10:15
|
|
|
Shoot an unarmed man, he was reaching for my gun. Shot a guy holding a toy gun, he tried to kill me with a BB gun. Hit a tagger, he jumped in front of my car. Citizens are a constant danger to police as, upon sighting of an officer, they become possessed of unstoppable lust for cop blood, like the a hobo morphing into an Agent in the Matrix.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 10:43
|
|
|
I listened to an interview on NPR yesterday with the mayor of miami-dade county, who apparently thinks that all reports of police violence by citizens are lies since their community policing effort has "worked." He wants body cameras but not until the legislature makes it basically impossible for someone to get the footage.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 12:47
|
|
|
peengers posted:I listened to an interview on NPR yesterday with the mayor of miami-dade county, who apparently thinks that all reports of police violence by citizens are lies since their community policing effort has "worked." He wants body cameras but not until the legislature makes it basically impossible for someone to get the footage. I assume they want the body cameras to be used like military gun cameras then?
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 12:59
|
|
|
ReV VAdAUL posted:I assume they want the body cameras to be used like military gun cameras then?
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 20:13
|
|
|
Dead Reckoning posted:Mainly used for awarding kill credit? Yeah, if both you and your partner can confirm rounds on the teen in question, it's a .5 for both of you. Ten team kills like that and you're an ace!
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 20:36
|
|
|
SedanChair posted:Yeah, if both you and your partner can confirm rounds on the teen in question, it's a .5 for both of you. Ten team kills like that and you're an ace!
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 21:20
|
|
|
Rent-A-Cop posted:Afterwords you can string your greatest hits together to the music of Drowning Pool and post it on YouTube!
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 21:23
|
|
|
Rent-A-Cop posted:Afterwords you can string your greatest hits together to the music of Drowning Pool and post it on YouTube! Dead Kennedys
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 22:31
|
|
|
A while back there was a former NYPD officer on CNN justifying the Garner case by saying that the "I can't breathe" quote was nonsense because you would have to be breathing in order to say that in the first place. They just had him back on to weigh in on the Tamir Rice shooting, and he was pointing out that Rice weighed 195 pounds according to the autopsy. The story title on the bottom of the screen was "Expert: Boy's size could be used to justify shooting," so I guess the demonic Hulkamania defense is applicable to shooting 12-year-olds as well.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2014 01:34
|
|
|
I know I shouldn't be surprised but that really happened? Is there a clip of this?
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2014 01:43
|
|
|
Richard Bong posted:I know I shouldn't be surprised but that really happened? Is there a clip of this? Not sure if CNN posts their content on a website anywhere, but it was on Erin Burnett's show if that's any help.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2014 01:56
|
|
|
NoEyedSquareGuy posted:A while back there was a former NYPD officer on CNN justifying the Garner case by saying that the "I can't breathe" quote was nonsense because you would have to be breathing in order to say that in the first place. They just had him back on to weigh in on the Tamir Rice shooting, and he was pointing out that Rice weighed 195 pounds according to the autopsy. The story title on the bottom of the screen was "Expert: Boy's size could be used to justify shooting," so I guess the demonic Hulkamania defense is applicable to shooting 12-year-olds as well. One of the Michael Brown activists was talking on Democracy Now about a concept called "superhumanisation" which is a form of racism thats coming up over and over again. Basically yeah, the cops involved in these killings all seem to view black people as though they've been chugging super soldier serum. Brown was a hulk and a demon, Tamir was a 20 year old 200lb man not a little kid as can be clearly seen on film.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2014 08:52
|
|
|
PostNouveau posted:Some undercover cops got busted as provocateurs at the Oakland protests over Garner/Brown. Somebody shoved one of them and that led to this horrifying photo: Those cops are drat lucky that Americans are so loving peaceful, because when some guy without any uniform is wildly waving a gun at a crowd then there's every justification to assume that he's a terrorist and to shoot first.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2014 09:45
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 23:22 |
|
|
peengers posted:I listened to an interview on NPR yesterday with the mayor of miami-dade county, who apparently thinks that all reports of police violence by citizens are lies since their community policing effort has "worked." He wants body cameras but not until the legislature makes it basically impossible for someone to get the footage. To my mind that is just more evidence that there can never be a solution to America's uncontrolled police industry until we create a nationalized system with real accountability and standards - just like other Western nations. We've been fighting the same fight against racist county sheriffs and corrupt city police chiefs for the last century, and we're going to continue fighting that fight until we give ourselves the tools required to bring our cops to heel. No amount of cameras, sensitivity training, or citizen review boards is going to change that simple fact. Kaal fucked around with this message at 10:13 on Dec 13, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2014 10:07
|
|