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While there were worse episodes in the season, I did not like Robots of Sherwood very much at all. There was such a strong air of unrealality to the episode and Robin and the Merry Men were so stereotypically themselves that I kept expecting Gatiss to say "No of course he's not the real Robin Hood don't be silly" but it never happened. And because of that I couldn't get into the episode. Then that nonsense at the end with the Golden Arrow, and ugh, at least the next episode was way better. That being said, I did love Jerusalem posted:Sheriff: Nottingham is not enough.
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Dec 19, 2014 05:32
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Barry Foster posted:Here's someone doing a half decent impression of the Ninth Doctor doing a decent impression of the Eleventh Doctor. That's actually pretty good. Shame that Eccleston and his enormous ears didn't last longer.
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Dec 19, 2014 05:32
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DoctorWhat posted:Kill the Moon is actually pretty good. Forest almost manages to be good but the KIDS DON'T NEED MEDS message is really hosed up. No. I don't care that they ran on fake science, I care that they cheated. Kill the Moon was only able to reach its endpoint by bullshitting past every completely valid reasonable point of argument possible, not even overlooking it, just taking a valid, empirical point as to why its conclusion was erroneous and going "nah, it doesn't actually work like that." When, of course, it actually does. And even beyond that, every single plot beat hit some kind of contrivance that made my nose wrinkle. Why was Chloe smuggling Windex in her spacesuit, was she that neurotic about puking? Where was she smuggling it? Whyfore the fat comic-relief astronauts, when someone that out of shape would have been smeared across their seat by the g-force like a booger on the underside of a desk? Then you had the pointless "world voting" scene, the repeated, ignorant, outright contradiction of exceedingly basic science, the under-explanation of vital plot points, the off-putting abortion-debate analogue, and - most damningly, my same issue with "Journey's End" - the fact that Kill the Moon was a vital point in the season's overall arc, what with that whole Clara-Doctor blowout at the end. Blithe, lazy, insulting trash from start to finish. Forest of the Night takes those same issues and compounds it with a dozen awful child actors and the aforementioned "meds" moral. Season 8 seems to be a really didactic season - appropriate when the Companion is a teacher and the Doctor comes off as a pissy tenured professor half the time - and teaching false messages, or actively harmful ones, is especially inexcusable in that context. Thank Christ that those were the only real downbeats for me thus far. Moffat seems to have an awful lot of credits in this batch of episodes and he provides a safe quality baseline, with dudes like Mathieson providing peaks and the liches in charge of those two episodes giving me deep, dark valleys.
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Dec 19, 2014 05:34
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Oxxidation posted:No. I don't care that they ran on fake science, I care that they cheated. Kill the Moon was only able to reach its endpoint by bullshitting past every completely valid reasonable point of argument possible, not even overlooking it, just taking a valid, empirical point as to why its conclusion was erroneous and going "nah, it doesn't actually work like that." When, of course, it actually does. And even beyond that, every single plot beat hit some kind of contrivance that made my nose wrinkle. Why was Chloe smuggling Windex in her spacesuit, was she that neurotic about puking? Where was she smuggling it? Whyfore the fat comic-relief astronauts, when someone that out of shape would have been smeared across their seat by the g-force like a booger on the underside of a desk? Then you had the pointless "world voting" scene, the repeated, ignorant, outright contradiction of exceedingly basic science, the under-explanation of vital plot points, the off-putting abortion-debate analogue, and - most damningly, my same issue with "Journey's End" - the fact that Kill the Moon was a vital point in the season's overall arc, what with that whole Clara-Doctor blowout at the end. Blithe, lazy, insulting trash from start to finish. There are loads of issues with Kill the Moon and Forest but I'm so used to people taking issue with stuff that ISN'T bad in them that I went off on you unreasonably. As for the abortion thing, I think Moon made a serious effort to be as careful about it as possible given its plot. The decision is made exclusively by women, for one. But yeah.
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Dec 19, 2014 05:38
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adhuin posted:That's actually pretty good. Shame that Eccleston and his enormous ears didn't last longer. Eccleston is still the best nuWho Doctor. Yeah, I said it.
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Dec 19, 2014 05:40
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DoctorWhat posted:There are loads of issues with Kill the Moon and Forest but I'm so used to people taking issue with stuff that ISN'T bad in them that I went off on you unreasonably. Problem is that in this metaphor, the Planet plays the part of a Woman and the 3 characters decide against her wishes, what's best for her A Very poor choice/use of a metaphor.
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Dec 19, 2014 05:46
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Robot of Sherwood is one of my favorite episodes of the past season. It's so funny and perfect the way Capaldi interacts with the Merry Men and Robin Hood. Great episode. Today I finished up another Tom Baker audio, The Renaissance Man. It is amazing how 80 year old Tom just absolutely nails his younger self. Like you'd imagine he might be a bit old and out of it, but not at all. He sounds more like his tv voice than almost any of the other Doctors, and you'd imagine that being the oldest and farthest from playing the part it'd be the hardest. Or that he'd stumble over the more esoteric sci-fi dialogue. But nope, he's dashing around the room, throwing out technobabble, outsmarting bad guys, charming everyone, and just utterly nailing it. And I'm not even a big 4th Doctor fan. He's winning me over though, much like McGann did with 8 who became one of my favorites after hearing his audios. Another nice touch is the music. The score and cues sound exactly like the ones from the 70s. Now, it would distract from the story if a 5 audio had a bunch of synth stuff, or we had to listen to a serious 7/Ace/Hex audio with Keff McCulloch Keffing it up all over the place. But in these 4DAs it's so right.
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Dec 19, 2014 05:54
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Barry Foster posted:Here's someone doing a half decent impression of the Ninth Doctor doing a decent impression of the Eleventh Doctor. THis is genuinely pretty good, although the delivery could be better. This is something that would've gotten Nine very shouty, I don't really buy 'cheerfully calm' in this instance.
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Dec 19, 2014 06:06
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Big Mean Jerk posted:I forgot, I received After The War's gift earlier this week and I can't wait to unleash that insanity upon my unsuspecting friends. 
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Dec 19, 2014 06:24
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DoctorWhat posted:Kill the Moon is actually pretty good. Forest almost manages to be good but the KIDS DON'T NEED MEDS message is really hosed up. Yeah. Kill the Moon is definitely one of the most divisive episodes of the season and justifiably so. I do think even if you really like it, as I do, you can understand people's complaints with it. Forest is a little too obvious in eyeroll worthy ways, which I am generally able to forgive Doctor Who for, and the medication thing, I really think, is an attempt a Harvey-like message about forced conformity, so I can't hate it, I just think it fails in execution at a great many of the things it tries to do. I definitely agree with Oxx that the Mathieson episodes were just the sort of thing Doctor Who needs. I hope they can get him for an episode or two for the next couple of seasons.
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Dec 19, 2014 06:27
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I think the big problem with Forest of the Night is that it never really went anywhere.adhuin posted:Problem is that in this metaphor, the Planet plays the part of a Woman and the 3 characters decide against her wishes, what's best for her
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Dec 19, 2014 08:19
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The Master has a chocolate fountain in his TARDIS?   Also, if you haven't received your gifts yet, remember the deadline for posting was Wednesday just gone so they may still be in the system.
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Dec 19, 2014 09:26
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Astroman posted:Robot of Sherwood is one of my favorite episodes of the past season. It's so funny and perfect the way Capaldi interacts with the Merry Men and Robin Hood. Great episode. I really enjoyed that, it's full of wonderful little touches (the Doctor getting a phone-call from an unexpected source and explaining what was said is brilliant) and lots of fun between the Doctor and Leela, particularly the bit where this happens (paraphrased) : Baddie: Surrender immediately! Leela: I could kill him easily Doctor, let me slice his throat! Doctor (sighing): Oh.... alright then. Leela: Really? FINALLY!  Doctor: No I mean we surrender. Leela: Oh.  She's just so excited when she thinks he's given her the green light to kill.
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Dec 19, 2014 10:40
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I think the big problem with Forest of the Night is that it never really went anywhere. It might not have been the writer's intent, but a LOT of people (or a very vocal minority on the Internet) saw it that way. It makes drawing the interpretation valid, but also very, very tricky to talk about without the conversation turning south. I managed to review it without mentioning the idea, but the potential for discussion about it was there... Kill the Moon was a memorable episode, but it suffers from (I believe) the Doctor acting way out of character and some really, really, REALLY bad quasi-science.
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Dec 19, 2014 11:11
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I think the characterization in Kill the Moon makes up for a lot, but also that it has a lot to make up for. I go back and forth on Forest. I think it's ultimately crippled by a very clumsy script and a better one that hit similar themes could have made for an utterly fantastic episode. But basically: Oxxidation posted:Thank God for Jamie Mathieson
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Dec 19, 2014 12:10
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docbeard posted:I think it's ultimately crippled by a very clumsy script and a better one that hit similar themes could have made for an utterly fantastic episode. Can't this be said of most bad Doctor Who episodes, though? I can think of very few that have an outright bad premise.
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Dec 19, 2014 12:26
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Fair Bear Maiden posted:Can't this be said of most bad Doctor Who episodes, though? I can think of very few that have an outright bad premise. I suppose it is a bit like I just said "If the episode had been better, it wouldn't have been as bad", but I think the script flaws were especially glaring here, like they just threw a first draft up on the screen and hoped for the best. My roommate really liked Forest but she's really into mythic stuff.
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Dec 19, 2014 12:34
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Barry Foster posted:Here's someone doing a half decent impression of the Ninth Doctor doing a decent impression of the Eleventh Doctor. Decent impression, but very flat. OK, so it's not a shock that random youtube guy isn't as good as actor as Christopher Eccleston but here we are
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Dec 19, 2014 12:54
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Oxxidation posted:No. I don't care that they ran on fake science, I care that they cheated. Kill the Moon was only able to reach its endpoint by bullshitting past every completely valid reasonable point of argument possible, not even overlooking it, just taking a valid, empirical point as to why its conclusion was erroneous and going "nah, it doesn't actually work like that." When, of course, it actually does. And even beyond that, every single plot beat hit some kind of contrivance that made my nose wrinkle. Why was Chloe smuggling Windex in her spacesuit, was she that neurotic about puking? Where was she smuggling it? Whyfore the fat comic-relief astronauts, when someone that out of shape would have been smeared across their seat by the g-force like a booger on the underside of a desk? Then you had the pointless "world voting" scene, the repeated, ignorant, outright contradiction of exceedingly basic science, the under-explanation of vital plot points, the off-putting abortion-debate analogue, and - most damningly, my same issue with "Journey's End" - the fact that Kill the Moon was a vital point in the season's overall arc, what with that whole Clara-Doctor blowout at the end. Blithe, lazy, insulting trash from start to finish. If I was a different man, I'd find a post of yours making fun of me disliking Season 8 during one of these two episodes. I am not a different man however because I am infinitely lazy. Welcome to the fold, say hi to two of the worst written episodes of Who made in quite a long time! Why Doctor Who You can be so much better than this Why
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Dec 19, 2014 14:28
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Burkion posted:If I was a different man, I'd find a post of yours making fun of me disliking Season 8 during one of these two episodes. You'd be looking for an awfully long time, because no such posts exist. This is the first time I've piped up on anything related to S8.
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Dec 19, 2014 14:37
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Irony Be My Shield posted:But I don't think an (inanimate) egg ever can be analogous to a pregnancy Well that's certainly an opinion
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Dec 19, 2014 14:43
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Oxxidation posted:You'd be looking for an awfully long time, because no such posts exist. This is the first time I've piped up on anything related to S8. No it's not. I forget when, but at some point when we were being negative you made a joke about it. As said, way too lazy to go back and check. I remember thinking it was weird you didn't like these episodes either, and then you made a remark a short time later about not having seen season 8 yet on the review thread. I have a good memory, I just cannot be bothered to use it.
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Dec 19, 2014 14:49
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Burkion posted:No it's not. I forget when, but at some point when we were being negative you made a joke about it. Well as luck would have it, I've got an excellent memory and a strong can-do attitude, so I just quickly backchecked my posts and found no references to S8. Several involving Occupation and scorpions, true, but nothing about S8. I'm the winner, now please give me my trophy and my motorcycle.
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Dec 19, 2014 14:55
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Trophy and motorcycle? What kind of thread do you think this is. Trophy and racing car
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Dec 19, 2014 15:46
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Trophy and motorcycle? What kind of thread do you think this is. This racing car: 
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Dec 19, 2014 15:48
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Trophy and motorcycle? What kind of thread do you think this is. 
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Dec 19, 2014 15:55
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Why am I not surprised that this is apparently from the Pertwee era? I know what I'm watching next. 
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Dec 19, 2014 16:43
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BSam posted:Yup. The Begining just arrived. Brilliant! I hope you like it! Imo the first serial is a little weak but the daleks and edge of destruction are both good.
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Dec 19, 2014 17:01
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Oxxidation posted:Well as luck would have it, I've got an excellent memory and a strong can-do attitude, so I just quickly backchecked my posts and found no references to S8. Several involving Occupation and scorpions, true, but nothing about S8. I'm the winner, now please give me my trophy and my motorcycle.  Fine. 
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Dec 19, 2014 17:46
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Kill the moon is a terrible, terrible episode with awesome chemistry and acting, which is the opposite of my complaints about a lot of the season, and I enjoyed it more than I expected, because when it comes down to it most of my enjoyment from the show comes from watching The Doctor be The Doctor (whatever that means for a given doctor), and I really felt like Capaldi fully found his doctor in this one. I also enjoyed Sherwood more than I expected too, for similar reasons. I was pretty sure I'd hate it based on the trailer from the previous episode, but much like The Unicorn and The Wasp (which is one of my favorite episodes, screw you general forum consensus  ), it just goes for over the top silliness, doesn't take itself seriously, and positively revels in the campiness. Plus, again, I felt like Capaldi was getting to try out some different moods on with the doctor, and again really settle himself more solidly into who exactly he'll be.
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Dec 19, 2014 18:16
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I love Kill the Moon. I also feel like you have to reach pretty hard to get an abortion debate out of it, but we've had this discussion before!
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Dec 19, 2014 18:31
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Android Blues posted:I love Kill the Moon. I also feel like you have to reach pretty hard to get an abortion debate out of it, but we've had this discussion before! I don't think you have to reach pretty hard. You certainly don't have to reach further than the production team did (remember the "ABORTED" display readout when the detonation was cancelled? Stuff like that is intentional.) I think treating it as an anti-abortion and/or anti-choice screed is a bit of a stretch, in the same way that treating the Master -> Missy change as being straightforwardly about real-life trans issues doesn't quite work: the metaphors don't quite scan. But those plotpoints DO comment on and consider their respective subjects to a degree.
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Dec 19, 2014 18:40
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Oh so the bomb represents the fetus and stopping the explosion represents having an abortion?
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Dec 19, 2014 18:50
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Android Blues posted:I love Kill the Moon. I also feel like you have to reach pretty hard to get an abortion debate out of it, but we've had this discussion before! Should you be able to kill an unborn baby if it will kill the life of the "host"? TADA WHAT A loving REACH
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Dec 19, 2014 18:59
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Oh so the bomb represents the fetus and stopping the explosion represents having an abortion? Again, the metaphor doesn't line up with the events of the actual story, no matter how you rotate things. But there are definitely overlapping themes and concerns and arguments, and the episode is aware of them. It's not what it's about, but the production team wasn't oblivious. I posit that, after initial story treatments and scripts were completed, the commonalities were noticed and the script/SFX/other elements were adjusted as a form of acknowledgement.
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Dec 19, 2014 19:03
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DoctorWhat posted:
This is a better way of putting than I have the last time this came up.
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Dec 19, 2014 19:40
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I enjoyed "Robot of Sherwood". It was fun. I was not really expecting much else. But I thought the same of Gatiss's other "the Doctor meets an historical figure" episodes ("The Unquiet Dead" and "The Shakespeare Code"), which were also enjoyable and fun, so  The way "In the Forest of the Night" turned out was especially disappointing, I think, because someone with as much experience writing childrens' fiction as Frank Cottrell Boyce probably ought to have cottoned on to the implications of the medication angle. Wheat Loaf fucked around with this message at 20:06 on Dec 19, 2014 |
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Dec 19, 2014 20:02
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Bicyclops posted:This is a better way of putting than I have the last time this came up. Well I AM an amazing rhetorician-slash-genius. Ask anybody!
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Dec 19, 2014 20:04
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Metal Loaf posted:I enjoyed "Robot of Sherwood". It was fun. I was not really expecting much else. But I thought the same of Gatiss's other "the Doctor meets an historical figure" episodes ("The Unquiet Dead" and "The Shakespeare Code"), which were also enjoyable and fun, so "Shakespeare" was Gareth Roberts, not Gatiss.
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Dec 19, 2014 21:15
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 IT BEGINS
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Dec 19, 2014 21:19
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