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Kabuki Shipoopi posted:AFKing in a raid, or auto attacking is not the same thing as not being able to grind for your end game gear 24/7 to have ~*Optimal DPS*~. In FFXI, it was almost impossible to get a spot in a group as a certain class if you did not have a certain piece of gear. Bottom line, if you didn't have a black belt as a monk, you didn't do certain stuff with pickup groups, or sometimes, your own linkshell. It's one thing entirely to kick a guy sitting on his rear end and doing nothing, but it doesn't require a DPS parser to see that a BLM isn't casting spells. You don't have to grind 24/7 to have Optimal DPS. You just have to push buttons on cooldown in the correct order. It's not quite _that_ simple, of course, but gear matters way less than playing your class. Andi it's not that parsers are essential, but that parsers are incredibly helpful tools for identifying DPS problems so that they can be addressed. I'm not aware of any Final Coil groups that don't parse their fights - obviously there's an advantage to be gained from doing so, but the fights are more mechanically complex than "do a lot of DPS in a short period of time". In some ways this makes parsers even more helpful, as it can help people track and understand that they need to address that the way they're managing certain mechanics is poor and could stand for improvement. Believe me, I am all for casuals learning and improving and doing hard content. If you're willing to pull your own weight, you should be rewarded for it.
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Dec 20, 2014 21:48
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FFXIV is a numbers go up game, meters are another number you can make go up. Ergo meters own.
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Dec 20, 2014 21:50
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Kabuki Shipoopi posted:People are acting like dps parsing is an essential tool to get stuff done. A personal DPS meter is to a DPS class what threat bars are to a tank. Yes, you can get by without it, but it's still a critical piece of feedback. It lets you experiment and immediately gives you feedback on what works better. This also helps reduce reliance on out-of-game information sources, which means a more level playing field between the truly casual players and those of us who are willing to read a forum to figure out how to play better. They could even just build a meter into practice dummies and it would be a major improvement.
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Dec 20, 2014 21:53
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I don't really understand any of the people here who are trying to argue in favor of less information being available to the players. Stop coming up with situations where your hypothetical special snowflake friend might be offended to learn that they're terrible and instead think about how you could use data to help them be a better player. When they do better in general they'll be happier about the game.
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Dec 20, 2014 21:53
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Also what the gently caress does "casual" mean, because I probably play less than anyone in this thread but I like making my numbers get bigger. I've never raided but I like doing the most damage I can in dungeons. Am I a casual? If so I demand meters, and you have to listen to me, because I'm a casual
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Dec 20, 2014 22:01
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Olesh posted:Believe me, I am all for casuals learning and improving and doing hard content. If you're willing to pull your own weight, you should be rewarded for it.  nuru posted:instead think about how you could use data to help them be a better player. When they do better in general they'll be happier about the game.
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Dec 20, 2014 22:02
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Well, the situation with DPS meters right now is kind of at a good balance where you get the advantages of it (albeit through a program you can't talk about in-game) without some of the big drawbacks.
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Dec 20, 2014 22:03
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nuru posted:I don't really understand any of the people here who are trying to argue in favor of less information being available to the players. Stop coming up with situations where your hypothetical special snowflake friend might be offended to learn that they're terrible and instead think about how you could use data to help them be a better player. When they do better in general they'll be happier about the game. How is it hypothetical when it was something actively happening in WoW?
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Dec 20, 2014 22:06
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Verranicus posted:How is it hypothetical when it was something actively happening in WoW? In WoW people were able to use that data to discover they were under performing and improve their dps. Claiming we shouldn't do something beneficial because someone might be a dick about it ignores that that person is already being a dick.
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Dec 20, 2014 22:19
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nuru posted:I don't really understand any of the people here who are trying to argue in favor of less information being available to the players. Stop coming up with situations where your hypothetical special snowflake friend might be offended to learn that they're terrible and instead think about how you could use data to help them be a better player. When they do better in general they'll be happier about the game. I can't even tell if you are trolling anymore. 
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Dec 20, 2014 22:24
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i think that the appropriate balance is that Yoshi-P personally gets mad at you and will ban you from his game if you talk about your inability to just appreciate the game for what it is. Truly an artist.
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Dec 20, 2014 22:25
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Enmity bars are a decent way to measure dps on a single target. Summoners excluded. If you see a bard with 3 times as much bar as a monk then you know the bard is doing a hell of a lot more dps. Assuming the monk didn't die.
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Dec 20, 2014 22:30
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nuru posted:In WoW people were able to use that data to discover they were under performing and improve their dps. Claiming we shouldn't do something beneficial because someone might be a dick about it ignores that that person is already being a dick. There are certainly people who use DPS meters to optimize their own DPS. There are probably even tens of such people in existence. But most people optimize their DPS by listening to what the above people say and following their lead. But most importantly, for pretty much everyone, the only reasons you actually need to see anyone else's dps is to point out exactly how poo poo someone is or brag about how not-poo poo you are. And the latter is it's own issue; The only thing more annoying than people who cling to DPS meters constantly are people who print out the DPS meter report after every boss. It's like someone hitting a 20 line ASCII penis macro after every fight except less funny. I'm sure if they added a self-only DPS meter that nobody else could see it probably wouldn't be a big deal and would probably be useful to some people to optimize their DPS. But I don't think that's what most people are asking for and I don't think that's why most people are asking for it.
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Dec 20, 2014 22:33
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nuru posted:In WoW people were able to use that data to discover they were under performing and improve their dps. Claiming we shouldn't do something beneficial because someone might be a dick about it ignores that that person is already being a dick. Giving dicks more ways to be a dick just so some people can feel pro seems like a really dumb idea and it seems like YoshiP agrees.
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Dec 20, 2014 22:34
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I would be pretty happy with them just altering things to make current parsers more accurate while maintaining their don't do it or we will ban you policy. Let's dudes get the numbers they crave/need while also banning the jerks dumb enough to talk about it in game.
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Dec 20, 2014 22:37
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Holy wow! A ton of new posts! I wonder what else was announced... 
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Dec 20, 2014 22:44
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For what it's worth I don't have strong feelings around how it's implemented. Just having an external api u could hook into would even be fine. Just let me get at the data so I can figure out what's going on. See also: it sure would be nice if they gave percentages for stats like crit in game
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Dec 20, 2014 22:45
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Goons: "Let's all laugh collectively at pubbies who are bad at the game, but don't tell you dare loving tell me that I'm bad at the game." I mean that's cool I guess, but we all talk about goons who are bad at the game behind their backs anyway.
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Dec 20, 2014 22:49
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Consider this: We're all gay as hell.
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Dec 20, 2014 22:50
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Goons are just pubbies who paid 9.95 USD to some guy to post on his internet forum. The weird guy being Chairman of course.
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Dec 20, 2014 22:58
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Kitfox88 posted:Consider this: We're all gay as hell.
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Dec 20, 2014 22:58
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Leal posted:Goons are just pubbies who paid 9.95 USD to some guy to post on his internet forum.
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Dec 20, 2014 22:59
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Have they given any info on how the FC airships are supposed to work?
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Dec 20, 2014 22:59
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nuru posted:I don't really understand any of the people here who are trying to argue in favor of less information being available to the players. Stop coming up with situations where your hypothetical special snowflake friend might be offended to learn that they're terrible and instead think about how you could use data to help them be a better player. When they do better in general they'll be happier about the game. As soon as you stop coming up with hypothetical arguments nobody is arguing. Velthice posted:Goons: "Let's all laugh collectively at pubbies who are bad at the game, but don't tell you dare loving tell me that I'm bad at the game." I thought it was about laughing at the people who role-play and who are too Serious Business about the game? Not ruining the game, ruining Your Game and all... The world has changed around me and I'm scared. 
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Dec 20, 2014 22:59
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At times like this, we must remember the teachings of Gong Way
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Dec 20, 2014 23:00
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Kitfox88 posted:Consider this: We're all gay as hell.
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Dec 20, 2014 23:02
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Kabuki Shipoopi posted:I thought it was about laughing at the people who role-play and who are too Serious Business about the game? Not ruining the game, ruining Your Game and all... The XIV guilds are very different from other mmo goon guilds, that does not exempt them from being absolutely terrible in other ways. Kitfox88 posted:Consider this: We're all gay as hell.
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Dec 20, 2014 23:03
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Fancy Corndog posted:Have they given any info on how the FC airships are supposed to work? Nope. We maybe will get a tiny bit of info in todays live letter but probably not.
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Dec 20, 2014 23:04
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Kabuki Shipoopi posted:If people are going to be dicks regardless, why sanction a tool that will give them carte blanche to set the standard of what is optimal for any given content? People are acting like dps parsing is an essential tool to get stuff done. If it were, it would be implemented into the game itself. Almost every single mmo I've played I've done so without needing a dps parser to do endgame content. I think the status of ACT as it stands is perfect. If you want to use it fine, but don't talk about it, and certainly don't be a dick about it. The status of ACT as a third party tool that breaks ToS and is essential for raiding new content is perfect? You have a strange idea of what perfect means.
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Dec 20, 2014 23:16
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Kabuki Shipoopi posted:People are acting like dps parsing is an essential tool to get stuff done. I never said it was essential, but yeah I do think the way it currently is, is perfect. If you want to use it, use it. If you don't, don't. Let me just go ahead and quote this right here: Verranicus posted:Giving dicks more ways to be a dick just so some people can feel pro seems like a really dumb idea and it seems like YoshiP agrees.
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Dec 20, 2014 23:29
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DPS parsing is an essential tool for raiding hth e: which means you are perfectly fine with the state of matters being "if you want to do well in FCOB you need to break ToS"
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Dec 20, 2014 23:33
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Eej posted:DPS parsing is an essential tool for raiding hth It's so essential my group only uses it when we're trying to break a fight by pushing a phase early.
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Dec 20, 2014 23:35
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Eej posted:DPS parsing is an essential tool for raiding hth Yes. I am perfectly fine with people being upset that using ACT breaks the ToS and that they feel it's necessary to use in order to complete a raid to their standards.
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Dec 20, 2014 23:54
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Just let us see our own DPS and continue to ban people who are shitheads jesus christ this doesn't need a Congressional Hearing.
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Dec 21, 2014 00:18
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While it's poor form at best for somebody to drop ACT stats on a group that didn't request them, it still feels p good when it reveals that I'm edging out guys in his coil3 static.  I'd be down with a self-only parser or one tied to practice dummies so I can help FC buddies improve or tighten up my own rotation. I just don't see either of those showing up in game any time soon.
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Dec 21, 2014 00:39
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Real talk, if we have ACT, why do we even need an in game parser?
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Dec 21, 2014 00:47
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How does drg dps compare to nin and mnk right now? I probably won't be using it too much until I get another 300 light on nin, just curious how it performs now.
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Dec 21, 2014 00:48
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The number that ACT puts next to encDPS is not even 1% of the total utility and information it provides. Its a diagnostic tool that can tell you why exactly you wiped for non-mechanical reasons and if they ever actually try to do client-side detection they are going to completely wipe out the entire population of every raiding FC, who they are happy to congratulate when with the help of said tools they clear content in record time. They clear enrages within seconds when the margin given to clear enrages is also in seconds, it's not dumb elitism which demands to see and min max those numbers it's the content that yoshi-p designs.
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Dec 21, 2014 00:48
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Velthice posted:Real talk, if we have ACT, why do we even need an in game parser? Not everyone is good at configuring that sort of stuff, and the people who know about ACT + have set it up are among the least likely to need its help on a basic performance level. Niton fucked around with this message at 00:52 on Dec 21, 2014 |
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Dec 21, 2014 00:49
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