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computer parts posted:Tyrion being a bastard ruins all of his characterization with Tywin. It hurts my head when people eagerly theorize that Tyrion isn't Tywin's son, as if all the cool characters should be Targaryans. The best aspect of Tyrion is that he is unquestionably Tywin's son and heir, only instead of Twin's outwardly stoic and honorably appearance contrasted with his inner ugliness, Tyrion is outwardly ugly yet inwardly moral and honorable.
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Dec 21, 2014 14:52
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Professor Shark posted:It hurts my head when people eagerly theorize that Tyrion isn't Tywin's son, as if all the cool characters should be Targaryans. Well, to a point. He directly prefers kiddie-diddling priests to ones that disrupt the status quo.
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Dec 21, 2014 15:13
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Well he still has most of Tywin's traits for the most part, practicality being the main one.
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Dec 21, 2014 15:22
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Tyrion is literally described by Tywin's sister and the coolest female character in the novels as 'Tywin writ small', if he's discovered to be Aerys' bastard son it will be one of the worst and most pointless twists in fantasy literature. Seriously what purpose would it serve, The tension between Tywin and Tyrion requires no further twists, it's interesting because it seems like a real relationship, "All dwarves are bastards in their father's eyes" etc. Would Tyrion riding a dragon be such a cool underdog moment that people would be ok with undermining one of the most interesting relationships in the novels? For me it wouldn't, I really don't know why some people are so hot on this theory, it's awful.
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Dec 21, 2014 15:28
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Secret targ theories are the worst kind of theory.
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Dec 21, 2014 16:45
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Tyrion is literally described by Tywin's sister and the coolest female character in the novels as 'Tywin writ small', if he's discovered to be Aerys' bastard son it will be one of the worst and most pointless twists in fantasy literature. I don't think I'm hot on it, but I can certainly see the argument that there's some light evidence/foreshadowing for it. It would still be bad.
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Dec 21, 2014 17:11
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Professor Shark posted:It hurts my head when people eagerly theorize that Tyrion isn't Tywin's son, as if all the cool characters should be Targaryens. I honestly love the theory that Tywin's other children are secret Targs. It makes the "rightful heir" situation more complex, too, since Cersei's incest children would arguably have a better claim to the throne than any of king Robert's descendants. But as far as authorial intent goes, I'm pretty sure that Tywin's children's paternity is not going to be important to the plot.
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Dec 21, 2014 17:48
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Grendels Dad posted:He is the ice to Dany's fire, though. Like, their position in Dance is almost the same: Reluctant ruler of a place in shambles, army of "free people" they can't really utilize in a meaningful way, pet monsters, and both have the most boring chapters this side of Bran. Dany's pooping in a desert and is never going to accomplish anything either.
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Dec 21, 2014 18:43
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Tyrion is Tywin's only legitimate child.
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Dec 21, 2014 19:06
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Hakkesshu posted:Dany's pooping in a desert and is never going to accomplish anything either. It would have been truly poetic had Jon peed off the Wall before getting shanked.
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Dec 21, 2014 19:08
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PresidentBeard posted:Tyrion is Tywin's only legitimate child. what?
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Dec 21, 2014 21:01
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TommyGun85 posted:what? There are two major clues that Jamie and Cersei are Targaryans. One is the hair color and I'm sure you can figure out the other one for yourself.
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Dec 21, 2014 21:07
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Grendels Dad posted:There are two major clues that Jamie and Cersei are Targaryans. One is the hair color and I'm sure you can figure out the other one for yourself. cmon son
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Dec 21, 2014 21:19
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Grendels Dad posted:There are two major clues that Jamie and Cersei are Targaryans. One is the hair color and I'm sure you can figure out the other one for yourself. so every blonde character is a targ? also the incest thing is more likely due to twin perversion rather than the targaryen inbreeding ways. I thought targaryens were described as having silver hair anyways. also, wouldnt there be a million logistical issues with the twins being targs?
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Dec 21, 2014 21:21
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computer parts posted:He asked the creators of the show who Jon's parents were and they answered correctly. Do you have a cite for this? I recall reading about the meeting between the show creators and GRRM, and read that GRRM asked if they knew who the father of a "popular character" was, that D&D gave an unspecified answer and that GRRM did not confirm or deny it but just smiled at them. If there is an account that has more specific information I'd love to read it, because I assumed that the accounts that GRRM confirmed R+L=J to the show creators was the typical spin that the posters at asoiaf.westeros.org gave to the same account I read. They are really obsessed with that theory over there, and I agree it seems likely, but there's lots of other interpretations of Jon's parentage that fit the text exactly as well. Oddly, until TWoIaF came out, the A+J=T theory was considered to be totally crackpot and people who proposed that on the forums were usually mocked. When TWoIaF revealed that Joanna left the Westerlands and came to Kings Landing right before Tyrion was conceived, some people take it more seriously but the majority there still say it's impossible that Tyrion has Targaryan blood. Different ways the meeting could have gone down: GRRM - Who are Jon Snow's parents? D&D - Rhaegar and Lyanna. GRRM smiles because he knows it was Ned and Ashara Dayne or GRRM - who are Tyrion's parents? D&D - Umm, Tywin and Joanna? GRRM smiles because he knows it was Aerys and Joanna The thing is, if one of the other theories about Jon's parentage turns out to be true, a lot of the fans are going to accuse GRRM of changing the story because they were smart enough to guess, based on that account of GRRM finding a theory that was accurate about the ending of the series on a message board in the 90s, they are convinced he is talking specifically about Jon. I have my doubts - for one thing, he said the fan theory was about the ending of the series - I could see how maybe he might end it with Jon discovering who his parents are, but that seems more like something revealed in the second to the last book, why have Jon die, come back, accomplish everything he is going to do in the series, and THEN find out he is a Targaryan?
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Dec 21, 2014 21:28
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TommyGun85 posted:so every blonde character is a targ? I'm positive there is at least one line in the books where Cersei's and Jamie's hair was described to be "so blond as to be almost white". For the record, I do not believe that incest is inheritable, but it would be pretty GRRM to make it an inheritable feature in his magical Aryan super-race.
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Dec 21, 2014 21:35
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TommyGun85 posted:so every blonde character is a targ? Same source as for the 'Tyrion is a targ' rumours: Aerys shagged Mrs Lannister at some point.
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Dec 21, 2014 21:57
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Grendels Dad posted:There are two major clues that Jamie and Cersei are Targaryans. One is the hair color and I'm sure you can figure out the other one for yourself. How does the "incest is an inherited trait" thing keep on coming up  Two things: a) They started loving because they are both huge pathological narcissists and oh hey here's a person who looks exactly like beautiful beautiful me, let's do this b) Incest is not genetic what even the hell e: Oh and a third thing, yellow and white are not the same color hth
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Dec 21, 2014 22:04
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loquacius posted:How does the "incest is an inherited trait" thing keep on coming up Yes, I said something like that in my second post  On the other hand, this is still a fantasy novel and the Targaryans are a fantasy-as-gently caress family/bloodline/whatever, so if GRRM wanted to make the Targs inherently incestuous there is absolutely no reason why he couldn't.
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Dec 21, 2014 22:08
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Technically they started loving cause after Joanna died Tywin had such a huge blind spot for his golden twins he ignored all signs of their incestuous relationship.
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Dec 21, 2014 22:11
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I'm pretty sure the reason for Targaryen incest was to keep the blood of Old Valyria *~pure~*; really the only magical thing about it is that they managed to last that many generations without turning into sterile mutated inbred freaksemanresu tnuocca posted:Technically they started loving cause after Joanna died Tywin had such a huge blind spot for his golden twins he ignored all signs of their incestuous relationship. No, that's why they didn't stop loving, not why they started 
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Dec 21, 2014 22:11
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loquacius posted:I'm pretty sure the reason for Targaryen incest was to keep the blood of Old Valyria *~pure~*; really the only magical thing about it is that the Targaryens lasted that many generations without turning into sterile mutated inbred freaks They didn't really keep up with the custom for that long, and there were always other houses with Valyrian ancestry they mixed around with, Aerys had been the first targaryen to have married his sister after almost a century iirc. quote:No, that's why they didn't stop loving, not why they started They were eight when she died and she figured out what they were up to before that, had she still been around she wouldn't have let them keep it up. emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Dec 21, 2014 |
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Dec 21, 2014 22:12
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I'm sure you could discover all kinds of fascinating psychological justifications for why other Targs banged their sisters, should Martin ever choose to write about it. Thing is, it doesn't really change a thing about Cersei and Jamie. They are siblings, blond, and they have sex with each other. Also, one seems to go crazy, and one seems to turn out alright. All this can be explained away, but it could also be because they are Targs. That's the beauty of these kinds of theories, and I certainly find this particular theory more compelling that the one about Tyrion being a Targ.
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Dec 21, 2014 22:16
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Same, Tyrion being Targaryen would be ridiculous when it's thematically set up (and more interesting) that he's Tywin's real slash only heir.
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Dec 21, 2014 22:19
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Apoplexy posted:Same, Tyrion being Targaryen would be ridiculous when it's thematically set up (and more interesting) that he's Tywin's real slash only heir. Thing is that he's already Tywin's sole heir, Jaime is a kingsguard, Cersei a woman and all her children are bastards. Since the first book the reader knows that Tyrion is Tywin's only legitimate heir, that conflict is already there even without a superfluous discovery that the twins are secret bastards, what would it even add to the story at this point when Tywin is already dead. Not to mention that it would ultimately be very similar to the discovery of Joff's parentage, only with less consequence.
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Dec 21, 2014 22:27
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Speaking of theories, Watchers on the Wall talked a bit about the Valonqar prophecy, which WILL be introduced in the show. It's mostly stuff we've covered before, but one novel theory I hadn't heard that I found rather enticing is this: The Valonqar is Tommen. How could it be her lil' tubby king if he's supposed to die before she does? Simple: he dies during a white walker invasion of King's Landing, turns into a wight and chokes the life out of her with his new-found wight strength. I like.
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Dec 21, 2014 22:28
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ClearAirTurbulence posted:Do you have a cite for this? I recall reading about the meeting between the show creators and GRRM, and read that GRRM asked if they knew who the father of a "popular character" was, that D&D gave an unspecified answer and that GRRM did not confirm or deny it but just smiled at them. If there is an account that has more specific information I'd love to read it, because I assumed that the accounts that GRRM confirmed R+L=J to the show creators was the typical spin that the posters at asoiaf.westeros.org gave to the same account I read. They are really obsessed with that theory over there, and I agree it seems likely, but there's lots of other interpretations of Jon's parentage that fit the text exactly as well. Oddly, until TWoIaF came out, the A+J=T theory was considered to be totally crackpot and people who proposed that on the forums were usually mocked. When TWoIaF revealed that Joanna left the Westerlands and came to Kings Landing right before Tyrion was conceived, some people take it more seriously but the majority there still say it's impossible that Tyrion has Targaryan blood. in the time it took you to write this post out you could have googled it and found plenty of articles/interviews where grrm or d&d literally say that they guessed jon snow's parents correctly. here is one http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/george-r-r-martin-outtakes-from-the-rolling-stone-interview-20140428
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Dec 21, 2014 22:36
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Hakkesshu posted:Dany's pooping in a desert and is never going to accomplish anything either. She's actually not in a desert.
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Dec 21, 2014 22:54
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Yeah she's more pooping in a grassland so at least her pooping will lead to something productive, plant-growth wise.
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Dec 21, 2014 23:08
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If Tyrion is a Targaryen, then Jaime and Tyrion are half-brothers who each killed the others' real father, though neither realizes it. This adds weight to "Tyrion is your only true heir" or however Tywin's sister said it as a metaphorical statement, because she could be saying that despite not coming straight from Tywin, Tyrion was the one who understood his lessons and took them to heart, a nature vs. nurture situation. If Jaime and Cersei are actually Targaryens, then Jaime and Tyrion are half-brothers who each killed their own father, though neither realizes it. This adds weight to "Tyrion is your only true heir" as a literal statement, and says the opposite about nature vs. nurture. I don't believe either of these situations will happen, but to say it completely ruins the dynamic between Tywin and his kids is dumb, if anything it adds more depth and dramatic irony to the situation. In one situation Tywin has to cope with his two beautiful children being unrelated to him while he only managed to produce a disfigured dwarf. In the other situation his two real children are nothing like him and can't inherit, while the child who actually takes after him and can inherit isn't actually his. Both of these situations go a lot further in explaining why Tywin was such a dick than "people made fun of his dad". We've also been told multiple times that Aerys was into Joanna and I believe World of Ice and Fire confirmed they had an affair to some extent. I could possibly see GRRM putting more into the next books that confirms this for the readers, but I doubt Tyrion or Jaime will ever find out.
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Dec 21, 2014 23:37
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romanowski posted:in the time it took you to write this post out you could have googled it and found plenty of articles/interviews where grrm or d&d literally say that they guessed jon snow's parents correctly. here is one http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/george-r-r-martin-outtakes-from-the-rolling-stone-interview-20140428 See, I had read an account of the meeting from the perspective of D&D, and it said that they were asked a question about a "certain characters" parentage and when they answered GRRM did not confirm or deny but only smiled. I did not realize GRRM had given his, more detailed, account to Rolling Stone. So, we have confirmation that D&Ds guess was correct. Do we have a cite of what their guess was?
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Dec 21, 2014 23:52
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There's also the story of GRRM telling Alfie Allen who Jon's real parents were in return for meeting his sister or something, and he said "it involves a bit of a Luke Skywalker situation". (Ned is Obi-Wan in that analogy, I guess?)
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Dec 22, 2014 00:15
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Grendels Dad posted:I'm positive there is at least one line in the books where Cersei's and Jamie's hair was described to be "so blond as to be almost white". For the record, I do not believe that incest is inheritable, but it would be pretty GRRM to make it an inheritable feature in his magical Aryan super-race.
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Dec 22, 2014 00:19
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loquacius posted:I'm pretty sure the reason for Targaryen incest was to keep the blood of Old Valyria *~pure~*; really the only magical thing about it is that they managed to last that many generations without turning into sterile mutated inbred freaks You're forgetting Maelys the Monstrous here. Also Aerys had that King Charles of Spain thing going on. One of my favorite bits in World of ice and fire is hearing all his half baked but massively grand ideas. Irrigate all of Dorne! Reclaim the true North from the wildings! Build a new wall!
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Dec 22, 2014 00:30
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ClearAirTurbulence posted:See, I had read an account of the meeting from the perspective of D&D, and it said that they were asked a question about a "certain characters" parentage and when they answered GRRM did not confirm or deny but only smiled. I did not realize GRRM had given his, more detailed, account to Rolling Stone. So, we have confirmation that D&Ds guess was correct. Do we have a cite of what their guess was? no but seeing as how the prevailing theory for a decade and a half has been R+L=J i think we can be reasonably certain that that's what their guess was. anyway why does this matter again, i forgot
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Dec 22, 2014 01:32
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Wallet Inspector posted:It is actually Tyrion who is described like this. Are you sure? I've done a quick search to refresh my memory and only found Tyron described as something I always imagined to be dishwater blond. That may very well be me mixing up the descriptions with Peter Dinklage's hair color though.
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Dec 22, 2014 01:40
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Grendels Dad posted:Are you sure? I've done a quick search to refresh my memory and only found Tyron described as something I always imagined to be dishwater blond. That may very well be me mixing up the descriptions with Peter Dinklage's hair color though. Yeah, you're thinking of Peter Dinklage. Tyrion's hair in the books is pale blond. quote:Then he saw the other one, waddling along half-hidden by his brother’s side. Tyrion Lannister, the youngest of Lord Tywin’s brood and by
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Dec 22, 2014 01:58
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My bad, then. Theory retracted, mostly. Thanks for looking that up.
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Dec 22, 2014 02:13
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Maybe Tyrion finally meets his end when he learns that there's a chance that he could be a Targ, and so he tries to ride the third dragon only to be casually tossed thousands of feet to the earth on his first dragon ride. That would satisfy both theories: he's the third head of the dragon and a huge factor in the series's resolution right until the very end but even from the grave Tywin gets the last laugh by being his true father after all.
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Dec 22, 2014 02:20
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HBO is running promos previewing next year's program line up and it includes some very brief clips of next season. Around the 1:38 mark. http://youtu.be/EeoTrEKBC_k
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Dec 22, 2014 04:55
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