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ActusRhesus posted:It's a little more than that. Try a collective shunning by the entire legal community. Since here prosecutors are union it's almost impossible to fire them, but you can certainly make things so unpleasant that they see early retirement or transfer to academia as a better future. So the real question is what is the average time period between "shunning" & retire, because again like you stated the prosecutors are in a union.
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Dec 22, 2014 02:47
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Looking more into the NYPD unions and what they are saying, I am pretty shocked. The Patrolmen's Benevolent Association has a pretty right wing page with Fox News clips and a NewsMax interview where they just go off on the mayor. They also sent out this memo after the shootings where they are evidently now dictating enforcement/arrest policy instead of elected officials:NYC PBA posted:“At least two units are to respond to EVERY call, no matter the condition or severity, no matter what type of job is pending, or what the option of the patrol supervisor happens to be. IN ADDITION: Absolutely NO enforcement action in the form of arrests and or summonses is to be taken unless absolutely necessary and an individual MUST be placed under arrest. These are precautions that were taken in the 1970’s when Police Officers were ambushed and executed on a regular basis. The mayors hands are literally dripping with our blood because of his words actions and policies and we have, for the first time in a number of years, become a ‘wartime’ police department. We will act accordingly.” That is some crazy loving rhetoric. The other union also said this and still has the tweet up: 
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Dec 22, 2014 02:58
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tezcat posted:Righhht. But in the mean time between "Collective shunning" (whatever the gently caress that's supposed to mean) For better or worse legal professions are incredibly dependent on maintaining active networks. To be shunned by everyone in your area doesn't, like, make you a bit lonely at the bar association's Christmas Lexus give away party -- it makes you completely ineffectual at practicing law. Even the most mundane tasks are going to be much, much harder when you have no one to work with, no favors to call in, no lines of communications into the back end processing of law. It's busting a seasoned career attorney to basically a 2L.
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Dec 22, 2014 03:01
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ActusRhesus posted:Great question and one I wish I had the answer to. Remember a lot if people do go into law enforcement and prosecution out of a sincere desire to protect victims of crime, and a disproportionate number if victims are also minorities. Having a better trust between victims and witnesses and cops would make our job a lot easier. A prosectors job can be pretty easy given when he/she doesn't want to prosecute.
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Dec 22, 2014 03:02
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TyroneGoldstein posted:You basically summed it up. It's an epidemic and it's the same way up here in various parts of Lower Westchester from the people who fled the Bronx, parts of Manhattan or even have lived here since the 1940's. It really is an epidemic and I have no idea how to begin to confront it. Everyone is so wrapped up in their just world bubbles that they refuse to see the world as any other way. Pretty much every one I knew in high school that went to be a cop for the NYPD were the biggest assholes you could imagine.
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Dec 22, 2014 03:04
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RedQueen posted:Looking more into the NYPD unions and what they are saying, I am pretty shocked. The Patrolmen's Benevolent Association has a pretty right wing page with Fox News clips and a NewsMax interview where they just go off on the mayor. They also sent out this memo after the shootings where they are evidently now dictating enforcement/arrest policy instead of elected officials: They have this opinion because the mayor talked about how he had told his mixed son that he needs to be careful around police. No sudden movements, etc... Which is not at all an uncommon conversation among black/mixed families. That was the egregious offense that set the police off.
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Dec 22, 2014 03:18
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ActusRhesus posted:No. He was advocating for vigilantism. Not the specific post that you were replying to that I was replying to: Here it is: Alastor_the_Stylish posted:Better to let a cop choke your son to death. ActusRhesus posted:What were people saying about this thread not advocating for dead cops?
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Dec 22, 2014 03:21
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fknlo posted:They have this opinion because the mayor talked about how he had told his mixed son that he needs to be careful around police. No sudden movements, etc... Which is not at all an uncommon conversation among black/mixed families. That was the egregious offense that set the police off. Which is funny since this is what all of the police abuse supporters keep telling black people already.
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Dec 22, 2014 03:21
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Yeah isn't that the same advice police themselves would give?
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Dec 22, 2014 03:24
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KomradeX posted:Which is funny since this is what all of the police abuse supporters keep telling black people already. No one is allowed to take the moral high ground against the cops. No one. How DARE you try to act reserved and defensive around us to try and avoid our wrath. We will show you who runs Batertown!
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Dec 22, 2014 03:24
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fosborb posted:For better or worse legal professions are incredibly dependent on maintaining active networks. To be shunned by everyone in your area doesn't, like, make you a bit lonely at the bar association's Christmas Lexus give away party -- it makes you completely ineffectual at practicing law. I mean here you have ActusRhesus saying this: ActusRhesus posted:Having a better trust between victims and witnesses and cops would make our job a lot easier. But what happens when the Cops are the murderers and the prosecution refuses to do its job because they rely on said cops? Or when a cop gets poo poo canned because they dared defend a victim instead of an officer? That's really what the thread is about. And it highlights the level of corruption needed just to function in legal and why reform is needed there too (and also explains why ActusRhesus is so drat defensive in the thread too, it's a bitter pill to swallow when your livelihood is shown to be lovely and racist). Though I do honestly thank ActusRhesus for their contribution to the thread. Whether they intended to or not it shows a bit of the mindset of on the legal side of things, unsurprisingly it shows the "with us or against us" mindset most cops are so famous for.
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Dec 22, 2014 03:28
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ActusRhesus posted:No. He was advocating for vigilantism. No, he was advocating to stop the murder of your friends or family by a cop. That =/= dead cop. It might = jail time or death for you, but to be quite honest I'd take a bullet for my friends or family. That does not mean I'm going to try and kill the police officer in question, and claiming that means that I'm advocating directly for the killing of cops is stupid as gently caress.
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Dec 22, 2014 03:31
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Oh yeah, I think there was an issue where a police officer got hit by someone and it was captured on video. and Di Blasio said something along the lines of "alleged attack" or something like that which totally pissed the police off because since it was on video it wasn't alleged.
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Dec 22, 2014 03:31
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fknlo posted:Oh yeah, I think there was an issue where a police officer got hit by someone and it was captured on video. and Di Blasio said something along the lines of "alleged attack" or something like that which totally pissed the police off because since it was on video it wasn't alleged. Basically doing anything that isn't constantly sucking a policeman's cock is enough to piss them off, it seems.
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Dec 22, 2014 03:34
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RedQueen posted:Looking more into the NYPD unions and what they are saying, I am pretty shocked. The Patrolmen's Benevolent Association has a pretty right wing page with Fox News clips and a NewsMax interview where they just go off on the mayor. They also sent out this memo after the shootings where they are evidently now dictating enforcement/arrest policy instead of elected officials: The city offered them 0's across the board and increased contrib to healthcare. If they didn't have this contract issue right now you wouldn't hear a tenth of this poo poo. That's how petty they are.
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Dec 22, 2014 03:43
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Cops nowadays are like the cops from Blues Brothers in a way. Chasing after people with a small list of unpaid parking violations and shooting and crashing into stuff, eventually leading up to using the National Guard. Although even at the end they didn't shoot the Brothers so I guess the movie cops are better.
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Dec 22, 2014 03:44
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KomradeX posted:And everyone knows a cop, or has a family member who is a cop. I was friends with a guy who's brother is a cop and every time you criticized the police he'd practically get in your face going on about how dare you talk bad about his family. It has some of the most noxious people and I'm ashamed when I tell other people in the city I'm from there, and I've never once had someone not say they were sorry when I told them I was from Staten Island. Someone told me at last Saturday's big NYC protest that they heard that half the Garner grand jury were cops. I'm taking that with a big grain of salt since I don't know how that would even be known, but the point is that it doesn't even matter because they're all guaranteed to at least have family in the NYPD anyway.
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Dec 22, 2014 03:45
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tezcat posted:This post helps solidify the reason for the thread. Yes. I can't imagine why I wouldn't be leaping to listen to your many valid points. Serious question: what have you actually done to bring about positive change? Do you volunteer for any civil rights orgs? Published any scholarly works on inequality in the justice system? Planned a career as a PD?
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Dec 22, 2014 03:45
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ActusRhesus posted:Yes. I can't imagine why I wouldn't be leaping to listen to your many valid points. Serious question: what have you actually done to bring about positive change? Do you volunteer for any civil rights orgs? Published any scholarly works on inequality in the justice system? Planned a career as a PD? Wow, what an incredibly unproductive attitude. Yes, you must have at least 5 made up qualifications to discuss police reform!
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Dec 22, 2014 03:49
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Cichlid the Loach posted:Someone told me at last Saturday's big NYC protest that they heard that half the Garner grand jury were cops. I'm taking that with a big grain of salt since I don't know how that would even be known, but the point is that it doesn't even matter because they're all guaranteed to at least have family in the NYPD anyway. Grand juries are generally seated for a term, and there's no way of knowing what type of case will come up during that term. Generally speaking a cop would be pro indictment so a prosecutor would want them in a grand jury panel but obviously this fact pattern busts that stereotype. However, as the grand jury is seated for a term, not a specific case there wouldn't be an easy way to kick them off. (This assumes there were in fact cops on the panel.) This is one of many complaints I have about the grand jury process. ActusRhesus fucked around with this message at 03:54 on Dec 22, 2014 |
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Dec 22, 2014 03:50
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Cichlid the Loach posted:Someone told me at last Saturday's big NYC protest that they heard that half the Garner grand jury were cops. I'm taking that with a big grain of salt since I don't know how that would even be known, but the point is that it doesn't even matter because they're all guaranteed to at least have family in the NYPD anyway. Yeah I don't know if they were all cops but I bet you they had family members that were at least.
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Dec 22, 2014 04:03
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Trabisnikof posted:Wow, what an incredibly unproductive attitude. Yes, you must have at least 5 made up qualifications to discuss police reform! Oh you can discuss all you want. But the  posturing of some on here who are quite willing to rage against the msn so long as it's convenient gets a little tiresome. I may not agree with all equine don or bassguitarhero's posts, but I respect the fact they actually gave a poo poo enough to go to ferguson and try to get a deeper understanding of what's happening there. Ditto for PDs and civil rights lawyers. I may be their adversary more often than not but they have my respect.
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Dec 22, 2014 04:06
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ActusRhesus posted:Yes. I can't imagine why I wouldn't be leaping to listen to your many valid points. Serious question: what have you actually done to bring about positive change? Do you volunteer for any civil rights orgs? Published any scholarly works on inequality in the justice system? Planned a career as a PD? "You can't say poo poo is hosed up unless you have actively done something. You have to have published works to actually be able to say 'things are wrong' or 'Eric Garner was murdered in cold blood by cops using a chokehold they were not allowed to do, and they got away with it because it was a black man who died.' That's just crazy!"
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Dec 22, 2014 04:06
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E-Tank posted:"You can't say poo poo is hosed up unless you have actively done something. You have to have published works to actually be able to say 'things are wrong' or 'Eric Garner was murdered in cold blood by cops using a chokehold they were not allowed to do, and they got away with it because it was a black man who died.' That's just crazy!" You can say all you want. But now what are you going to do about it?
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Dec 22, 2014 04:09
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ActusRhesus posted:Yes. I can't imagine why I wouldn't be leaping to listen to your many valid points. Serious question: what have you actually done to bring about positive change? Do you volunteer for any civil rights orgs? Published any scholarly works on inequality in the justice system? Planned a career as a PD? Since when has it been the burden of the general public to submit to the police and worship their authority? The burden is entirely on them. It has been that way from the start. Only the police can change it- not the public. The public can only riot or, god forbid, take matters into their own hands.
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Dec 22, 2014 04:09
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E-Tank posted:"You can't say poo poo is hosed up unless you have actively done something. You have to have published works to actually be able to say 'things are wrong' or 'Eric Garner was murdered in cold blood by cops using a chokehold they were not allowed to do, and they got away with it because it was a black man who died.' That's just crazy!" You can say it all you like. But if you get smug about it, you've done wrong. Because if the thing were so obviously unethical that you could get smug or morally superior about it, then you should be engaged in actual action against it.
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Dec 22, 2014 04:11
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ActusRhesus posted:Yes. I can't imagine why I wouldn't be leaping to listen to your many valid points. Serious question: what have you actually done to bring about positive change? Do you volunteer for any civil rights orgs? Published any scholarly works on inequality in the justice system? Planned a career as a PD? "List your credentials!" isn't an argument.
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Dec 22, 2014 04:12
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Job Truniht posted:Since when has it been the burden of the general public to submit to the police and worship their authority? The burden is entirely on them. It has been that way from the start. Only the police can change it- not the public. The public can only riot or, god forbid, take matters into their own hands. I disagree. There's a lot average citizens can do to raise awareness, organize community action, become part if the system and bring change from within, become advocates as civil rights attorneys or public defenders, run for office, campaign, join a political staff, propose legislation, speak at legislative sessions etc etc. but that all takes work. Typing on phone. Please excuse obvious typos.
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Dec 22, 2014 04:13
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AVeryLargeRadish posted:"List your credentials!" isn't an argument. Neither is "you're stupid."
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Dec 22, 2014 04:16
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ActusRhesus posted:Oh you can discuss all you want. But the So in the example, swapping out a bunch of pliable chucklefucks for another bunch of pliable chucklefucks would have practically 0 outcome if you have a prosecutor looking to get a murdering cop off the hook.
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Dec 22, 2014 04:16
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ActusRhesus posted:You can say all you want. But now what are you going to do about it? I was unaware this forum was entitled "Organize & Overthrow." Why are you so aggressively trying to prevent a discussion of police reform in the police reform thread?
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Dec 22, 2014 04:16
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ActusRhesus posted:You can say all you want. But now what are you going to do about it? I'd love to hear suggestions that will actually enact change instead of feel good poo poo like 'write a published article'. I'd also love you to stop cheerleading and saying we shouldn't stop cops from murdering people, but I get the feeling that's not happening. Also this is a place of discussion. Not where we have to show off 'Hey I did X for the cause!' Trabisnikof posted:I was unaware this forum was entitled "Organize & Overthrow." . . .Dammit, beat me to it. Oh we all know why. They find the idea that cops can do wrong utterly abhorrent and we should not try and stop our new police overlords from murdering us whenever they so choose.
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Dec 22, 2014 04:18
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ActusRhesus posted:I disagree. There's a lot average citizens can do to raise awareness, organize community action, become part if the system and bring change from within, become advocates as civil rights attorneys or public defenders, run for office, campaign, join a political staff, propose legislation, speak at legislative sessions etc etc. but that all takes work. Those aren't things 'the average' citizen can do. Those are things people DEDICATED to doing them might accomplish but the everyday person has a life and career and normal social responsibilities already. No one just decides to run for office or start a grassroots political movement on a lark. These things require time, money, and a ton of dedication, networking, and support.
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Dec 22, 2014 04:20
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tezcat posted:The point is no one is really raging (except for you maybe). Alot of people are simply pointing out that your profession is in collusion with cops so you can replace a grand jury as much as you want, but you will have the same racist assholes spoon feeding select info to get the outcome they desire. I have a little more respect for juries than you do, I guess. Even when I have lost cases, I've generally found that, based on the evidence they were legally allowed to consider, it was probably the right verdict. Beyond reasonable doubt is a high bar. Now, if you have paid attention, you would see that in this, and other threads, I have actually been quite critical of the ferguson amateur hour. But when you say things like "my profession" is colluding to get murderers off, do you see how that kid of shuts down any dialogue we might have been able to have?
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Dec 22, 2014 04:20
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Trabisnikof posted:I was unaware this forum was entitled "Organize & Overthrow." Recommending changes: totally cool. But at the point where you moralize, well, you can't moralize without taking a moral obligation upon yourselves. Reason abstractly, reason concretely, or shut the gently caress up.
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Dec 22, 2014 04:22
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ActusRhesus posted:I disagree. There's a lot average citizens can do to raise awareness, organize community action, become part if the system and bring change from within, become advocates as civil rights attorneys or public defenders, run for office, campaign, join a political staff, propose legislation, speak at legislative sessions etc etc. but that all takes work. What bothers me is what bothers anyone else- hive mentality and police unions. Let's face reality for a moment. Violent crimes has been on the decline for the last two decades- so have incarcerations and police killed in the line of duty. Even in the face of two cop deaths, there's no statistical metric to say that these police are in danger from an angry mob of The public is pretty divided on the death of Garner and Brown, especially among the white community who whole preconceived notions among race. Conversely, almost all cops believe they are in danger at all times and are trained to escalate/use violent force.
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Dec 22, 2014 04:22
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E-Tank posted:I'd love to hear suggestions that will actually enact change instead of feel good poo poo like 'write a published article'. I'd also love you to stop cheerleading and saying we shouldn't stop cops from murdering people, but I get the feeling that's not happening. Also this is a place of discussion. Not where we have to show off 'Hey I did X for the cause!' Except I didn't say that.
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Dec 22, 2014 04:22
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ActusRhesus posted:I disagree. There's a lot average citizens can do to raise awareness, organize community action, become part if the system and bring change from within, become advocates as civil rights attorneys or public defenders, run for office, campaign, join a political staff, propose legislation, speak at legislative sessions etc etc. but that all takes work.
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Dec 22, 2014 04:23
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Job Truniht posted:What bothers me is what bothers anyone else- hive mentality and police unions. Let's face reality for a moment. Violent crimes has been on the decline for the last two decades- so have incarcerations and police killed in the line of duty. Even in the face of two cop deaths, there's no statistical metric to say that these police are in danger from an angry mob of I agree with you that public sector unions are a problem. (I say this as a member of one) I also think elected prosecutors and judges are extremely problematic.
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Dec 22, 2014 04:25
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ActusRhesus posted:Except I didn't say that. Well considering how many times you've shoved words in others mouth I thought I'd give it a try. ActusRhesus posted:so you would prefer the officer be shot? ActusRhesus posted:What were people saying about this thread not advocating for dead cops? ActusRhesus posted:No. He was advocating for vigilantism.
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Dec 22, 2014 04:27
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