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FireSight posted:I made a character for Only War who used a grenade launcher as his primary weapon, and came to HATE frag grenades. What they need at the very least is Proven (3) or maybe (4). Since the average mook has 3TB and 3 armor, Proven (3) means a frag grenade should almost always deal at least SOME damage to them. Proven (4) would guarantee it. I was just about to post that proven would fix a lot of the issues. I think another rule to help would be that instead of them doing damage to the torso, the damage gets applied to the least armored limb, since that shrapnel will get everywhere. That'll teach those marines to go without a helmet.
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Dec 17, 2014 23:15
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Rockopolis posted:I'm just disappointed there are no Maccbean mortar rounds, or incendiary mortar shells. Or thurible flails. While we are talking about flails:  Why isn't there a Leman Russ variant with this. gently caress, make them end in actual morning star-like heads.
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Dec 18, 2014 03:22
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Azran posted:While we are talking about flails: Skulls. It has to be skulls. e: this is the one part of the decor that really isn't changed when the regiment falls to Chaos.
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Dec 18, 2014 03:43
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No, the flail should have Frag grenades. Just combine the Dozer Blade upgrade with the Frag Defense upgrade.
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Dec 18, 2014 03:56
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Werix posted:I was just about to post that proven would fix a lot of the issues. I think another rule to help would be that instead of them doing damage to the torso, the damage gets applied to the least armored limb, since that shrapnel will get everywhere. Honestly the Proven quality is probably the simplest and most elegant way to approach the issue, maybe raise the blast radius a bit, but otherwise that's a lot easier and better than futzing with damage dropoff or stuff like that.
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Dec 18, 2014 06:19
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Proven (X) where X is 4 - distance from the grenades blast center, with Blast (4).
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Dec 18, 2014 07:16
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Azran posted:While we are talking about flails: For the record, that's a minesweeping device. I think for anti-personnel mines - for vehicle mines, I think the recommended tactic is to use people with metal detectors or to bomb the area. Of course the moment a Tech-Priest of the 40th millennium finds the STC for one of these things, he's going to think, 'Oh good, now we can kill people up close even better.'
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Dec 18, 2014 15:02
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VanSandman posted:Of course the moment a Tech-Priest of the 40th millennium finds the STC for one of these things, he's going to think, 'Oh good, now we can kill people up close even better.' Next thing you know there are chainswords on the end of the flails......
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Dec 18, 2014 15:14
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My players would immediately try to stick exterminator attachments on them.
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Dec 18, 2014 15:19
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Tias posted:My players would immediately try to stick exterminator attachments on them. That reminds me- if a weapon has an exterminator attachment and you turn it into a Daemon Weapon, does the attachment also get infinite ammo? And if a weapon can properly be used in both close and ranged combat (e.g. the Omnissian Rod from the Lathe book, a rifle with attached bayonet), how would you rule Legacy Weapon stuff?
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Dec 19, 2014 07:29
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CommissarMega posted:That reminds me- if a weapon has an exterminator attachment and you turn it into a Daemon Weapon, does the attachment also get infinite ammo? I don't know about the first ("up to the GM to see if you get a cheap and easy combi-flamer attachment" is my best guess) but for the second I'd say that if you make a legacy weapon out of something that can be used in both melee and ranged combat then you have to abide by the legacy weapon restrictions when using it in both melee and ranged combat, i.e. you're stuck using that and only that weapon for both unless you want to risk losing your perks. Having a legacy weapon is supposed to be a commitment.
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Dec 19, 2014 07:45
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Oh, also, on the relatively anemic blast radii on grenades and things, I was thinking about this: I think one of the reasons is the interaction between the rule for dodging AoE attacks and the blast radius. Since the Frag was meant to be the sort of standard explosive you huck around all the goddamn time in DH1e (it has not changed stats much since, after all) they gave it a relatively low Blast so people could stand a chance of dodging stuff that wasn't a direct hit, since you technically need your AB to be higher than the number of meters you need to travel to dive out of a grenade's blast and evade. Thinking further, it's also probably partly because the original scatter was d5. If you had a Blast 6 grenade with the original scatter rules, you couldn't outright miss. It's why they introduced Indirect, to prevent artillery being 'if it is fired at your PCs they die'. Night10194 fucked around with this message at 10:36 on Dec 19, 2014 |
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Dec 19, 2014 10:11
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Come be a space wizard who can't control their power and is hated by everyone.
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Dec 20, 2014 04:22
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VanSandman posted:For the record, that's a minesweeping device. I think for anti-personnel mines - for vehicle mines, I think the recommended tactic is to use people with metal detectors or to bomb the area. Or, according to Abnett in Honor Guard, your badass veteran leman Russ tankers just lower their dozer attachments and literally plow through the minefield.
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Dec 20, 2014 05:42
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Well, it's not like anyone else in 40k has any sort of grasp of tactics, strategy, or what's a good idea to do in a fight.
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Dec 22, 2014 02:53
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mllaneza posted:Or, according to Abnett in Honor Guard, your badass veteran leman Russ tankers just lower their dozer attachments and literally plow through the minefield. Honour Guard had some really cool tank on tank action, but the part of Necropolis where the armor regiment just comes from two sides and tags enemies on the mark so they will not shoot at each other was  as gently caress. It's also pretty funny because the Imperium seems to kind of better technology when it is Abnett the one writing.
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Dec 22, 2014 03:56
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Abnett has ex-miner grease monkeys able to point out "just your basic cold fusion engine", so either the Imperium is actually more advanced than is usually written or he's just doing his own thing. Then again, Dark Age humanity did move the whole Solar system because they liked the view better near the core.
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Dec 22, 2014 06:57
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You can easily justify any and all of that by how varied the Imperium is.
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Dec 22, 2014 07:11
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wiegieman posted:Abnett has ex-miner grease monkeys able to point out "just your basic cold fusion engine", so either the Imperium is actually more advanced than is usually written or he's just doing his own thing. Then again, Dark Age humanity did move the whole Solar system because they liked the view better near the core.  wait what
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Dec 22, 2014 07:29
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Azran posted:
Cold fusion knowledge does make sense, they pretty much just took the idea for a lot of guardsmen regiments straight from StarCraft.
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Dec 22, 2014 07:41
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I meant the moving the system thing. 
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Dec 22, 2014 07:48
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Azran posted:I meant the moving the system thing. Oh. Yeah. Well, ya'know. When you're bored you just gotta think new poo poo up.
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Dec 22, 2014 07:55
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At the very height of its golden age, the Empire of Man was supposed to be pretty hot poo poo. Accounts vary because GW canon varies so there's no real 100% official answer but the fact that the Imperium's technology has been declining for 10,000 straight years and they're still able to go toe to toe with the Eldar, Tau, or even the Necrons (on occasion) suggests that things like moving stars around wouldn't have been out of place back in the day.
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Dec 22, 2014 08:27
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Hell, I've always figured one of the reasons for all the mutation is because back in the day, humans pretty much had designer genomes during the 'Dark Age'. Then having it turn out that that renders them kinda vulnerable to mutation or unplanned weirdness generations down the line.
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Dec 22, 2014 08:29
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Always liked Abnett's view on technology a bit more because it doesn't feel like everybody is dumb as a sack of bricks then. It just means that your average joe bob mechanic knows how to fix a bunch of stuff. This obviously alongside a few choice prayers and such while working it to placate the machine spirits and not just have to go "Uh, it's broken. Where are the cogheads?" constantly over the slightest thing which seems to be the general feel other authors seem to go for.
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Dec 22, 2014 09:09
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It was basically that way in the Ciaphas Cain books, too. There's a lot of religion in the mechanics and engineering, but at their core the basics are today's basics. Most of the vehicles are basically internal combustion engines. It's heavily implied in a number of books that a lot of the litanies are basically dog latin versions of 'gently caress's sake work you bastard'.
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Dec 22, 2014 10:32
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That's what Trade (Techomat) is. It just becomes heresy if you ask too many questions or start figuring out underlying principles.
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Dec 22, 2014 10:33
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A good rule of thumb is "if it would take an engineering degree, it's Mechanicus territory." And work on the level of cars and replacing gun parts really doesn't take a degree, just common sense and a manual.
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Dec 22, 2014 10:37
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Azran posted:
As I hear it, DAoT humanity moved Sol as close to the galactic core as they could so Earth would be the literal as well as administrative centre of their empire. Kai Tave posted:At the very height of its golden age, the Empire of Man was supposed to be pretty hot poo poo. Accounts vary because GW canon varies so there's no real 100% official answer but the fact that the Imperium's technology has been declining for 10,000 straight years and they're still able to go toe to toe with the Eldar, Tau, or even the Necrons (on occasion) suggests that things like moving stars around wouldn't have been out of place back in the day. The thing about DAoT tech is that while it looks really promitive to our eyes, they're crazy sophisticated. The lasgun can be reloaded by leaving it in sunlight, the Baneblade was a simple MBT, Imperial engines can run on any combustible material. It's just that unlike Eldar tech where form was meant to follow function and Tau tech which focuses on function, Imperial tech is geared towards mass-production, which is why something like a lasgun (which would be extremely complex by our tech) as well as fusion engines are so commonplace in the Imperium.
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Dec 22, 2014 12:08
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GW has always been back and forth about the level of knowledge people actually have. In Necromunda your gangers could build power fists and plasmaguns from scratch, and even in current stuff there are tank variants that were explicitly put together by guard units on the fly and then later approved by the Mechanicus because it would be pretty awkward to purge entire victorious regiments for tech heresy (haha, just kidding, its because everyone loves new toys). I just assume that this is the usual divergence people show between doctrine and practice, where people subscribe to a religion or belief but don't really follow through on all the tenets and its just sort of ok until you really go off the deep end. I assume the Mechanicus would really prefer that no one ever crack open on the hood on a vehicle, but in practice they'll let it slide unless they catch you doing some crazy poo poo in there. I mean from every 40k rpg I have played it seems like most Mechanicus people like to spend their time nuding around as close to the edge of heretek stuff as possible (and sometimes just ploughing headlong into it) so they aren't overly concerned with heckling people about proper maintenance techniques.
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Dec 22, 2014 15:38
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thespaceinvader posted:It was basically that way in the Ciaphas Cain books, too. There's a lot of religion in the mechanics and engineering, but at their core the basics are today's basics. Most of the vehicles are basically internal combustion engines. This is my take on it in my Imperium Secundus spinoff thing. Other litanies are remarkably accurate verbal instructions for how to do something, and were preserved as songs and litanies in order to pass the knowledge down to the next generation. Engineering and technical operations via oral culture. One I specifically pointed out in one game session is that the Litany of Void Initiation that Imperial small craft pilots perform before launching their ships is just a chanted pre-flight checklist. My usual consensus is that Imperials, by and large, know what they're doing with technology. They seldom know that they know what they're doing with technology, and think of it as theology rather than science or engineering, but they're not stupid. Cythereal fucked around with this message at 16:07 on Dec 22, 2014 |
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Dec 22, 2014 16:02
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Ashcans posted:GW has always been back and forth about the level of knowledge people actually have. In Necromunda your gangers could build power fists and plasmaguns from scratch, and even in current stuff there are tank variants that were explicitly put together by guard units on the fly and then later approved by the Mechanicus because it would be pretty awkward to purge entire victorious regiments for tech heresy (haha, just kidding, its because everyone loves new toys). Except, of course, when you piss off some fanatical enginseer and it's easier to have you made into a servitor than it is to deal with politics.
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Dec 22, 2014 16:34
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CommissarMega posted:the Baneblade was a simple MBT, The Baneblade will never stop being funny to me because people really did try to build tanks like it during the early (and for the Nazis, later) parts of WWII. And they broke any bridge they were driven over, broke down constantly, got stuck in mud up to the turret, and one of them managed to blow itself up with its own secondary turret. I know realism and 40k have no place in the same room, but I can't help thinking of the Maus and the T-35 whenever I see the Baneblade.
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Dec 22, 2014 19:09
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Night10194 posted:The Baneblade will never stop being funny to me because people really did try to build tanks like it during the early (and for the Nazis, later) parts of WWII. And they broke any bridge they were driven over, broke down constantly, got stuck in mud up to the turret, and one of them managed to blow itself up with its own secondary turret. Stuff like that is why, when I've shown glimpses of humanity in the Dark Age of Technology in my Rogue Trader games, I've emphasized that humans during that era had zero concept of efficiency or waste as someone today, or in the Dark Millenium, would understand it. To them, the Baneblade and all its inbred siblings were completely reasonable MBTs, because they're probably operated by one post-human if not controlled entirely remotely and had crew spaces retrofitted later, displacing the equipment that had been in there before. Their science and industry had advanced to the point where, say, turning themselves into giant sentient wolves because it seemed the best way to adapt to an extremely harsh prospective colony world both made sense to them and wasn't considered all that unusual. Humanity in the DAoT, in my book, wasn't really human as we understand the term today, or people in 40k understand the term. In my spinoff setting, the Imperium of Man emerged from the most radical, rabidly hyperconservative parts of the human population imaginable, those who felt that humanity had long ago lost its right to that name.
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Dec 22, 2014 19:21
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Whereas I basically wrote the Dark Age as a paradise that eventually got wrecked by a mixture of its own hubris and events beyond its control (I misread the timing in what Slaanesh's birth did and I've just kept with my idea that it caused the warp-storms that wrecked everything instead of blowing them away) and that much of the insane monumentalism comes from the Emperor and the Crusade. I like the DAoT being kept mysterious, it's a lot of fun to come up with your own ways it played out.
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Dec 22, 2014 19:28
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Cythereal posted:Their science and industry had advanced to the point where, say, turning themselves into giant sentient wolves because it seemed the best way to adapt to an extremely harsh prospective colony world both made sense to them and wasn't considered all that unusual.
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Dec 22, 2014 19:33
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Waroduce posted:Are you referencing the "Wolves of Fenris"? I thought they were people who suffered mutation during or failed the process of becoming a space wolf. People who fail becoming a Space Wolf basically turn into some Lon Chaney wolfman-style monster, but the actual not-so-tiny-or-hosed-up wolves are supposedly (according to Cythereal) descendants of Fenris' original colonists who did some Eclipse Phase style uploading into giant wolf bodies so they could live on a lovely ice planet better. Now they get killed for their pelts and made to pull stupid hover-sleds by giant drunken viking furries, so that probably didn't work out for them as well as they'd hoped. Kai Tave fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Dec 22, 2014 |
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Dec 22, 2014 19:37
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Night10194 posted:Whereas I basically wrote the Dark Age as a paradise that eventually got wrecked by a mixture of its own hubris and events beyond its control (I misread the timing in what Slaanesh's birth did and I've just kept with my idea that it caused the warp-storms that wrecked everything instead of blowing them away) and that much of the insane monumentalism comes from the Emperor and the Crusade. I like the DAoT being kept mysterious, it's a lot of fun to come up with your own ways it played out. The way I put it to my players when they encountered a survivor from the Dark Age is this: you are a billionaire socialite genius who just got back home from a prestigious international awards conference where you banged a supermodel. You come home to find that your multi-billion-dollar mansion and exquisitely kept estate is now occupied by a pack of filthy hobos who are making GBS threads in your perfect condition Ming vases and wiping their asses with the silk drapes while burning your Rembrandt paintings and original copy of one of Shakespeare's plays, written by the Bard himself, to keep warm at night. You want to try to talk to them, find out what's going on, but they communicate with each other only by grunting, screaming, and bashing each other on the head with stone axes they fashioned from the statues decorating the driveway and clubs made from smashing your hundred-thousand-dollar furniture. There's a paranoid glare in their eye the moment they catch sight of you, and all you can do is back away and leave them to it. quote:Are you referencing the "Wolves of Fenris"? I thought they were people who suffered mutation during or failed the process of becoming a space wolf. That's my response to the Wolves of Fenris, yeah, that they're the original colonists who saw nothing wrong with turning themselves into giant, sentient wolves if that's what was best suited for life on the planet.
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Dec 22, 2014 19:38
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Cythereal posted:Humanity in the DAoT, in my book, wasn't really human as we understand the term today, or people in 40k understand the term. In my spinoff setting, the Imperium of Man emerged from the most radical, rabidly hyperconservative parts of the human population imaginable, those who felt that humanity had long ago lost its right to that name. That's not much off the canon account. The Great Crusade was full of things like destroying whole civilizations because they wouldn't turn on and slaughter their alien allies, even if they just wanted to be left in peace. Transhuman civilizations were not even given a chance to surrender or change their ways. The obvious irony being that these decisions about who was "human enough" to live were being made by Space Marines, genetically engineered freaks created by a man who was in denial about the fact that he was playing God because actual human reproduction wasn't good enough to make a son for him. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Dec 22, 2014 |
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Dec 22, 2014 22:09
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Hodgepodge posted:Transhuman civilizations were not even given a chance to surrender or change their ways. Transhuman civilizations typically responded to "hi, we're humanity" with "no, you're not, and here's an itemized list of biological inconsistencies we discovered when we vivisected your first diplomatic mission." Many, many human offshoots leapt straight off into the deep end.
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Dec 22, 2014 22:37
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