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30.5 Days posted:Are there any public officials other than police who respond to criticism by threatening not to do their jobs? It's a really common trope "oh well I hope you don't call the cops when your house gets broken into". A lot of public officials deal with criticism, much of it not even based in reality, but none of them ever threaten to shut off your water or whatever. It's even more bizarre when you consider that inherent in a cop's threat to not do their job is a threat of violence, since police are SUPPOSED to stop citizens from being victims of violence. It doesn't work out that way but if you're still a cop and buy into the idea of police, then a threat not to respond to a call is a threat of violence. I'm being pedantic and use that as an example that somehow anything otherwise doesn't seem to be a good enough response to something like: "Well what do you think about the baby that was flash banged?" As if I'm somehow subhuman and incapable to see it as anything other than tragedy. I'm fully aware of the issues with my profession. And I agree with a lot of them. But a common argument made is that somehow because I'm involved with said profession I'm branded as being "a bad person" because I wear a badge and am a symbol of all things horrible, regardless of my actions or beliefs. It's like being labeled a nazi and here I am having to say "but guys there are some good nazi's too". Obviously the only solution that anyone would accept is to "not be a nazi anymore" and it is the right answer. But law enforcement is often stigmatized in the same light. So what is the proper response I should offer? I get tired of friends saying "Well I know it's not all cops, Shachi, you're one of the good ones." It's not all cops...it's not even most cops... I believe in what I do. I also believe that LE deserves a lot of the criticism it gets and I try everyday to change public perception. But I'm not going to pander to the "well how does it feel to be associated with the baby killing minority oppressors you soul-less pig?" I'm a loving human being with morals and feelings and a family of my own. What do you think I "think" about it. Shachi fucked around with this message at 17:00 on Dec 22, 2014 |
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Dec 22, 2014 16:56
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tezcat posted:The irony is that you wanted to know my credentials and what I do to judge you and your post. You can just do what I did to you and ignore it, making progress in actually discussing thread content. Except that's not what he did at all.
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Dec 22, 2014 16:57
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You should just agree with them and say it is horrible and that you think your profession needs reform. You don't need to apologize for poo poo cops and you don't need to be ashamed of doing your job well. Basically what I am trying to say is you need thicker skin and realize not everything is a personal attack. Like I think this is a large problem specially when you have the Police Union taking what the mayor said to his son as a personal attack. Seriously its unreal. Vire fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Dec 22, 2014 |
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Dec 22, 2014 16:59
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Shachi posted:It's not all cops...it's not even most cops... Ignoring the bad cops and doing your job without committing abuses and with a minimum of professionalism does not rise to the standard of "good."
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Dec 22, 2014 17:00
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Vire posted:You should just agree with them and say it is horrible and that you think your profession needs reform. You don't need to apologize for poo poo cops and you don't need to be ashamed of doing your job well. Basically what I am trying to say is you need thicker skin and realize not everything is a personal attack. My post was specifically in response to: anonumos posted:As a goon cop, what do you think about how even law-abiding white men are questioning the behavior of police around the country? Like, when you see a hillside execution of a homeless man in Arizona, a teen girl beaten in a jail cell, a teen boy slammed headfirst into a cinder block wall, an officer body checking a cyclist, half a dozen officers emptying their clips at a car in a crowded intersection, a baby flashbanged in his crib... The list goes on and on... I don't take professional cirticizms personal. It is unfortunately common among my peers however. I absolutely think we should always be held to a higher standard.
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Dec 22, 2014 17:02
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Shachi posted:I use that as an example that somehow anything otherwise doesn't seem to be a good enough response to something like: The police involved in that incident don't really seem to consider it that much of a tragedy. quote:"Our team went by the book," he said. "Given the same scenario, we'll do the same thing again. I stand behind what our team did... Bad things can happen. That's just the world we live in. Bad things happen to good people… The baby didn't deserve this." http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-28026395 So basically it's sad this baby was hit with a flashbang, but we'd do it the same way if we had to. Blame the terrorists that sell drugs that force us to shoot grenades into homes without checking who is inside first. Also sometimes we'll just screw you, even if you are good and law-abiding. When people ask you that question, it's because the police line that they publicly put out is typically incredibly callous and unfeeling to their innocent victims..
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Dec 22, 2014 17:02
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SedanChair posted:Ignoring the bad cops and doing your job without committing abuses and with a minimum of professionalism does not rise to the standard of "good." Yeah all that looking the other way I've been doing... Your assumption is that I'm personally ignoring all the "bad apples" in my agency?
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Dec 22, 2014 17:05
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30.5 Days posted:Well and that's my point- government employees of all sorts get an awful lot of undeserved bullshit, I've literally only heard this poo poo from cops. Even if the police as an institution were entirely healthy and not hosed up, this would be pretty uncalled-for. In my experience even ones with truly abhorrent views, and I'm talking assumptions that all lovely patients are welfare-hogging shitlords et cetera, still provide the best care they can. While we can certainly discuss if liability and malpractice has a part in this behavior, maybe that is even further pointing out a lack of culpability in law enforcement attitudes. And Shachi, you have a point and I'm not going to shoot that down, but in that same vein do you understand why some people who only seem to deal with the terrible aspects of law enforcement and the justice system tend to hold those generalizations? I don't even know how to truly tackle the issue of the protections law enforcement provide themselves, as a singular entity. I don't expect you to either but something needs to give in order for that impermeability to change. The biggest hurdle to any improvement though seems to be the unwillingness of the justice system as a whole. Not being able to produce that accountability within its actors and the optics, to outsiders, is that of harboring rather than improving.
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Dec 22, 2014 17:05
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Shachi posted:Yeah all that looking the other way I've been doing... No (funny how you keep thinking all this criticism is directed at you personally), I'm saying that if the good cops outnumber the bad ones, your definition of "good cop" must be the one I just used. Because otherwise the good ones would be blowing the whistle.
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Dec 22, 2014 17:08
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Shachi posted:My post was specifically in response to: I know it was but thats the whole point no? You responded to that post first by saying you should stop doing your job sarcastically then saying you are tired as being painted as a bad guy. I don't disagree even with any of your statements. We can't afford to lose good cops because the bad ones do terrible things because if they quit then only bad cops will be left. I am only pointing out what seems to be a big problem with cops is that they can't take criticism and immediately bunker down and get defensive for no reason. You first went to sarcasm. Vire fucked around with this message at 17:15 on Dec 22, 2014 |
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Dec 22, 2014 17:09
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Shachi posted:But law enforcement is often stigmatized in the same light. So what is the proper response I should offer? It's not any specific cop, it's the institution that protects them from the consequences of their actions. That CHP officer who was recorded beating the poo poo out of a mentally ill woman on the side of the road? He was on paid leave for a year and was allowed to "retire" without suffering any personal or professional consequences. The city paid out $1.5m in a settlement to her, but he did not get fired, reprimanded, or charged with anything. He is still eligible to be picked up by another department, and don't even pretend like that won't happen almost immediately since it's pretty clear from the Tamir Rice incident that no matter how unfit you are as a police officer, somebody will hire you. It's so pointless to say "but most cops are good anyway". People aren't protesting bad cops. They're protesting the system that does nothing when bad cops kill people, they're protesting the fact that all cops wield the power to significantly change the course of your life whether or not you are a criminal, and that any criticism of the institution is met with the implicit threat of violence. quote:Your assumption is that I'm personally ignoring all the "bad apples" in my agency? We have many stories of cops trying to do the right thing in response to "bad apples" only to be violently harmed by the same in-group mentality that causes harm to people outside the group. A thought experiment: if you were to go to your union meeting and say "hey, I've been thinking a lot about this issue and I think what we should do to increase accountability is to incentivize other officers to report incidents of abuse of power at the hands of their coworkers" what do you think the general tone would be towards you going forward? If you thought "no loving way would I do that", you've identified the problem. copper rose petal fucked around with this message at 17:13 on Dec 22, 2014 |
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Dec 22, 2014 17:10
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Shachi posted:Yeah all that looking the other way I've been doing... Well to be fair we pretty much have to assume that unless the police union has run you out of town and relegated you to the graveyard shift or whatever.
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Dec 22, 2014 17:11
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Radish posted:When people ask you that question, it's because the police line that they publicly put out is typically incredibly callous and unfeeling to their innocent victims.. "We're sorry and enjoy the millions you're about to get out of a civil suit and we're absolutely willing to pay out?" is a better response? You know the guy who threw that bang feels like dog poo poo but they did what they were trained to do and he's right, given the same scenario with the same intelligence that bang would have gotten tossed into the crib everytime. I'm sure that the agency has changed some things in order to prevent things like that from happening in the future but it hasn't been reported to the media...or maybe even the media hasn't even followed up on it. Releases made to the media typically very blunt and limited in scope to avoid being screwed with and sensationalized. The less they can quote us on the better. Working in a position that gets a constant stream of media inquiry that I do...I totally understand why now. I'm working a missing persons case atm and our release was actually very and indepth but all they quoted us on was, "Police have no leads on missing girl, family fears investigators will forget about her" When what we said is that we've investigated all the leads we've gotten so far and are working on the case. Shachi fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Dec 22, 2014 |
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Dec 22, 2014 17:15
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Shachi posted:We're sorry and enjoy the millions you're about to get out of a civil suit and we're absolutely willing to pay out? is a better response. This is why you aren't a "good" cop. To expand, the attitude that people's houses are some sort of militarized zone where random flash bangs are just the price we the citizens have to pay in order for our protectors to save up from drug dealing terrorists is pretty bad. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Dec 22, 2014 |
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Dec 22, 2014 17:16
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DrNutt posted:Well to be fair we pretty much have to assume that unless the police union has run you out of town and relegated you to the graveyard shift or whatever. Unions are absolutely one of the worst things in LE and I might put them on the top of the list of things to be reformed. I don't work for an agency that allows unions and purposely so. Unions in police work are an old hat and largely northern thing. If it helps any, the NYPD is about the biggest embarrassment in LE circles second only to the LAPD.
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Dec 22, 2014 17:18
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Shachi posted:We're sorry and enjoy the millions you're about to get out of a civil suit and we're absolutely willing to pay out? is a better response. You're trying to do your best, I get that. But why people are upset have very little to do with things individuals can fix. It requires a whole overhaul of policing, and I've got no idea how to make that happen. Ghost of Reagan Past fucked around with this message at 17:23 on Dec 22, 2014 |
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Dec 22, 2014 17:20
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Remember how on this page I just said you don't need to apologize for poo poo cops and then you can't help yourself just a few post later? Yeah don't make excuses for flash banging a baby cop and people will stop dog piling you. I would never defend that behavior unless I was there and 100% sure that was the right call or else you are literally sticking out your own neck for no reason to protect someone who might have been wrong. This is what cops do. Vire fucked around with this message at 17:23 on Dec 22, 2014 |
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Dec 22, 2014 17:21
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Shachi posted:Unions are absolutely one of the worst things in LE and I might put them on the top of the list of things to be reformed. I don't work for an agency that allows unions and purposely so. Unions in police work are an old hat and largely northern thing. So you would contend that 'the thin blue line' ceases to exist outside of Dept's with unions? I mean, clearly they're a huge problem but it doesn't take a union to make life miserable for someone who takes a stand.
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Dec 22, 2014 17:21
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Shachi posted:I makes me want to just give up because I'm clearly so institutionalized I'm incapable of seeing the tragedy of all those events? What do you expect me to say? I'm not advocating for any of that. Putting you over a barrel was not my intent. I am not scoring points. I wanted your opinion on the abuses of your fellow officers, and the lack of accountability within and without the police community. I also want you, Rhesus, and every other apologist in this thread to understand where the outrage is coming from. I'm not anti-cop. I don't want you to die in the course of your duties. By the same token, I'm deeply, deeply disturbed by the deaths of civilians at the hands of officers. There is something blatantly wrong with the state of policing in our country. You may do good work, but it doesn't invalidate calls for reform and accountability. I'm not attacking all of policing by participating in a discussion of its abuses. Your fellow officers are asking that we give up all semblance of introspection and support their profession no matter what. They're in this very thread, doing just that.
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Dec 22, 2014 17:22
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:Think about it this way: You think that throwing the flashbang in there is what they were trained to do, and he was right to throw it (because given the same scenario anyone would've done that same thing). People don't necessarily think the cop is any worse than other cops (and at least shouldn't). People are taking issue with the very training, the fact that the flashbang was the thing their training said to do. There's also the way you're thinking about the police, as opposed to the community. There are reasons to not say much, but you're thinking of it in terms of being screwed with and sensationalized, which is really a bad thing. The community isn't the enemy! They're not out to get you! The media isn't the community and are absolutely out to get everyone to make a dollar. From the police to the protesters. Look at how Furgeson was covered on both sides of the issue. I'm not sure what you want me to say here. They should have found out who all was going to be inside the residence and where. It's not that hard of a thing to do. That is a problem. A flash bang is a great way of making entry into a potentially hostile environment and avoids casualties on both sides. Or is that still wrong. I'm trying to cater to your feelings.
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Dec 22, 2014 17:24
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Shachi posted:We're sorry and enjoy the millions you're about to get out of a civil suit and we're absolutely willing to pay out? is a better response. Holy poo poo dude, it's not like they didn't know that there were kids in the house, there were toys strewn across the front yard. The kids regularly came and left the house. They could have driven by once and have seen that there were kids living there. They knew there were kids inside and they decided that those kids did not matter, the only thing that mattered was getting the drugs before they could be flushed down a toilet. The cops value getting an arrest more than the lives of the public, the lives of children for gods sake. I feel like I'm talking to someone from some loving evil alternate universe out of a comic book. 
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Dec 22, 2014 17:26
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Vire posted:Remember how on this page I just said you don't need to apologize for poo poo cops and then you can't help yourself just a few post later? Yeah don't make excuses for flash banging a baby cop and people will stop dog piling you. You're right. Disregard the rest of what I said having read more about the incident, now. That was a horrible thing. Shachi fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Dec 22, 2014 |
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Dec 22, 2014 17:26
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Shachi posted:The media isn't the community and are absolutely out to get everyone to make a dollar. From the police to the protesters. Look at how that was covered on both sides of the issue. The longer you continue to conflate the concerns from the community as media outrage designed to make money without having substantive cause for concern, the less likely you are to accept the idea that the community has a legitimate issue that they're trying to voice to you.
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Dec 22, 2014 17:27
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AVeryLargeRadish posted:Holy poo poo dude, it's not like they didn't know that there were kids in the house, there were toys strewn across the front yard. The kids regularly came and left the house. They could have driven by once and have seen that there were kids living there. They knew there were kids inside and they decided that those kids did not matter, the only thing that mattered was getting the drugs before they could be flushed down a toilet. The cops value getting an arrest more than the lives of the public, the lives of children for gods sake. I feel like I'm talking to someone from some loving evil alternate universe out of a comic book. *twists moustache* Seriously, I've never read in depth about the incident mostly just the headline. Sorry I scared you.
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Dec 22, 2014 17:30
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Shachi posted:A flash bang is a great way of making entry into a potentially hostile environment and avoids casualties on both sides. Or is that still wrong. 
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Dec 22, 2014 17:32
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DrNutt posted:Well to be fair we pretty much have to assume that unless the police union has run you out of town and relegated you to the graveyard shift or whatever. There have been several articles posted in the thread about how cops who called out or intervened to stop bad behavior by fellow cops were fired, disciplined, and generally mistreated by their department. I do think most cops are "good apples", but the mix of emotional investment in their job, lack of mental health support for cops, and PTSD along with a certain initial level of privilege blinds them to how bad some of this behavior is and what would happen in almost any other profession. It's like when I'm prodding ActusRhesus about professional misconduct resulting in shunning - it's laughable because in other professions you would at the least be fired. A mental health agency I used to work at busted an employee falsifying case notes and it resulted in that person being fired + having to notify all their past clients and those clients current mental providers that their medical records were inaccurate + the insurance companies recouping the cost of the care provided from the agency + the person having their license pulled. They'll never work as a social work anywhere ever again. And then a cop can choke someone to death on camera and keep their job?
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Dec 22, 2014 17:32
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See the problem with saying something is a "tragedy" and then defending every step of the way that it occurred, especially the parts where it was obvious either mistakes were made or safety was thrown out the window is that it doesn't really sound like you think it's a tragedy. Especially when you start talking about how the media is misrepresenting stuff to make money. The tone is that the REAL tragedy is the bum rap you guys are getting when you gently caress up and people get hurt, much like how the NYPD didn't really care too much about the black man one of their officers chocked to death but REALLY care when the mayor infers that his son might not get equal treatment from them.Shachi posted:*twists moustache* ...but of course you felt the need to create a narrative where the police acted responsibly and appropriately and the result was just something that couldn't have been avoided. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Dec 22, 2014 |
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Dec 22, 2014 17:32
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SedanChair posted:
It doesn't change what it is what what it's for. Keep being pedantic. I've seen a lot of kids squished by cars.
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Dec 22, 2014 17:33
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Shachi posted:"We're sorry and enjoy the millions you're about to get out of a civil suit and we're absolutely willing to pay out?" is a better response? It is, absolutely.
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Dec 22, 2014 17:34
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Shachi posted:It doesn't change what it is what what it's for. Keep being pedantic. What happened to the drivers of those cars?
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Dec 22, 2014 17:37
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Radish posted:See the problem with saying something is a "tragedy" and then defending every step of the way that it occurred, especially the parts where it was obvious either mistakes were make or safety was thrown out the window is that it doesn't really sound like you think it's a tragedy. Especially when you start talking about how the media is misrepresenting stuff to make money. The tone is that the REAL tragedy is the bum rap you guys are getting when you gently caress up and people get hurt, much like how the NYPD didn't really care too much about the black man one of their officers chocked to death but REALLY care when the mayor infers that his son might not get equal treatment from them. Yeah it was a loving mistake to assume I knew more about it. You get a point. I didn't say they acted responsibly, however, I said it looked to me like they didn't conduct intel very well.
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Dec 22, 2014 17:37
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Shachi posted:It doesn't change what it is what what it's for. Keep being pedantic. Is that not a casualty? Why not knock on the freaking door? e: I see we're in the "post composed of disjointed fragments" part of a cop's defensive meltdown.
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Dec 22, 2014 17:37
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CheesyDog posted:What happened to the drivers of those cars? Largely nothing? Pedestrian in the roadway unfortunately. They aren't criminally liable.
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Dec 22, 2014 17:37
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baby had no right to be in that crib
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Dec 22, 2014 17:40
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Shachi posted:Largely nothing? Pedestrian in the roadway unfortunately. They aren't criminally liable. Civilly? And what happen to one's CDL if they run over kid on the job?
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Dec 22, 2014 17:41
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Shachi posted:They should have found out who all was going to be inside the residence and where. It's not that hard of a thing to do. That is a problem. A flash bang is a great way of making entry into a potentially hostile environment and avoids casualties on both sides. Or is that still wrong. I'm trying to cater to your feelings. Well, at least in regard to that case..if they'd bothered to find out who was in the residence, they'd have known the guy they charged in gung-ho after, using flash-bangs, wasn't even there. So them saying hey, we followed our training and it's tragic, but you know, drugs were supposed to be there..it all rings particularly hollow when they failed to do even rudimentary surveillance of the premises to determine anything about the situation. Sure, using a flash bang is a great way to make entry..but doing real investigative work about the situation before charging in would be far safer for both parties...yet all too often that just doesn't happen, and it generally tends to be innocents who suffer and die, and that's just not acceptable.
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Dec 22, 2014 17:41
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Shachi posted:The media isn't the community and are absolutely out to get everyone to make a dollar. From the police to the protesters. Look at how Furgeson was covered on both sides of the issue. If protocol and training says to "throw flashbang when you don't know who's in there", or says that the right decision is to shoot Mike Brown or Tamir Rice, then the problem is protocol and training, and that means it's systemic (also, the racial disparities highlight the role bias and racism play in police work, which...I've got no solution for, except "send those cases to trial" or "don't carry guns"). There's the fact that, persistently, the officers that do these things are defended and not charged, and sometimes not even properly investigated. These kinds of things are really indicative of a systemic problem. These kinds of tragedies happen far too often. People shouldn't be afraid of police. And this isn't new; minorities have had these kinds of interactions for decades (and they're still the primary subjects of bad treatment). It's just new that white people are afraid of police, too, which is giving it attention. Ghost of Reagan Past fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Dec 22, 2014 |
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Dec 22, 2014 17:42
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Shachi posted:The media isn't the community and are absolutely out to get everyone to make a dollar. From the police to the protesters. Look at how Furgeson was covered on both sides of the issue. If we're dealing with details, the biggest problem with the crib-flashbang incident is that the supervisors deployed SWAT on rumor with very little surveillance. In other incidents, teams targeted the wrong house, got the wrong person, or simply handled the situation badly. Usually its not even ONE officer's fault, but a series of blind actions that lead to tragedy. Yet the prevailing storyline is "nothing to see here, move along".
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Dec 22, 2014 17:42
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SedanChair posted:Is that not a casualty? Why not knock on the freaking door? I said they avoid casualties. I'm being general. You know, like how tasers reduced the amount of people who might have otherwise have been shot but some people die being tased? Speaking of the specific incident, no they should not have banged and entered that house knowing kids were inside. In a typical scenario, flash bangs work well. Otherwise, here, you try going to the door and asking the nice man for his guns and drugs.
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Dec 22, 2014 17:43
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Yes, go to the door and ask for the drugs and guns. Nut up. Or arrest him when he goes to buy cigarettes, jesus think a little.Shachi posted:I said they avoid casualties. I'm being general. You know, like how tasers reduced the amount of people who might have otherwise have been shot but some people die being tased? Do you have any evidence of this?
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Dec 22, 2014 17:45
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