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Shachi posted:But I really get the feeling that this thread will accept nothing short of police having no arrest powers, no ability to use force, or basically for there to be such an institution any longer. So I'm not going to debate it any further. You get this feeling because it's easier to argue against ridiculous bullshit that nobody has ever said than the real, concrete examples of institutional corruption that people want to change.
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Dec 22, 2014 18:59
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Vire posted:I just can't understand why the police are so resistant to the idea if you are negligent to the point where someone literally loses their life or sustains serious bodily harm and it could have been avoided they should lose their job. Why would you want to be on a police force that shields these kinds of individuals I am just not getting it and I have never seen a single officer explain this in a reasonable fashion. I don't have a problem with it. In most cases where negligence is involved, that I've been privy too...you generally get fired. I feel like there are a lot of agencies where the unions have them by the balls see NYPD.
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Dec 22, 2014 19:04
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Shachi posted:I guess it depends on what parts of the evidence or witness accounts you choose to believe I too trust the word of a bipolar racist above all others.
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Dec 22, 2014 19:04
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Shachi posted:Yeah it loving does. Are you rescinding your claim that they reduce police shootings?
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Dec 22, 2014 19:07
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"Internal Affairs" should be a national organization, completely seperate from and unanswerable to local police politics. Name it something more appropriate and be done with it.
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Dec 22, 2014 19:08
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Shachi posted:I don't have a problem with it. In most cases where negligence is involved, that I've been privy too...you generally get fired. And this is very reasonable and what I and many others people want see from the police. It would go a long way towards restoring public trust if the police showed this is what actually happens. Instead of saying things like the mayor has blood on his hands. Vire fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Dec 22, 2014 |
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Dec 22, 2014 19:08
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Shachi posted:But I really get the feeling that this thread will accept nothing short of police having no arrest powers, no ability to use force, or basically for there to be such an institution any longer. So I'm not going to debate it any further. 2. I have no idea what media you're watching if you think that's been the narrative. 3. As people keep saying, the problems are systemic. 4. If the police can't handle criticism and skepticism without throwing a tantrum, maybe they should grow the gently caress up. If the police didn't defend almost everything that other cops did, and prosecutors and cops encouraged fair, even-handed trials and investigations for police that allegedly gently caress up, people wouldn't be upset. Christ. I'd say "end the systemic racism" but hey, baby steps. Ghost of Reagan Past fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Dec 22, 2014 |
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Dec 22, 2014 19:08
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SedanChair posted:Are you rescinding your claim that they reduce police shootings? No, he's acknowledging that police frequently murder people for fighting them and proposing that tasers are the e-cigarettes of unnecessary police shootings. Which would be oddly clear-eyed, but he's saying that like it's a good thing.
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Dec 22, 2014 19:12
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:1. Nobody wants police to have no powers, or to cease existing. I'm seriously curious if anyone will actually stand up and disagree with these points. More likely, they'll just pat their baton and say "well, but what are you going to do about it?" But I can dream....
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Dec 22, 2014 19:13
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Grem posted:This is just a fundamental difference on the way people think and view the world. Or how much they pay attention. People who see a systematic abuse of power and see things as "big picture" see these incidents as just more to add to the oppression they feel. People who have probably never felt this oppression and have a different experience with police, different up-bringing, different social circumstances may agree that police need to be held accountable for excessive force but see these protesters as hanging their hat on the wrong incidents, because they're more inclined to believe a different narrative. I fully believe there is a systematic issue at play and it deserves attention. The fact that these issues aren't raised until a particular one or two incident occur and then turn it into the "popular" opinion of the day then sways the masses into as you put it "hang their hat" a particular incident. I would say that the vast majority of people involved in protests as of late see it nothing more than it being a mostly racial issue that extended not much farther than white cops kill black people. I'm generalizing it here. They fail to see the socioeconomic inequalities for all races...the issues with the laws and who they are designed to punish and how they continue to punish those despite being by definition "reformed" (al la criminal history affecting a persons ability to get a job). The problem is that because these issues aren't brought to light beyond a cops vs people, white people vs black people is that they create horribly misguided people to act out in horrible ways. See NYPD shooing. The other issue is things like the NYPD shooting will only serve to cause cops to rally behind a false flag of sorts and grow further "us vs them" when in reality the US should be all of us as in all citizens vs them "a corrupt system of government control by a tiny minority of power holders. Meanwhile cops believe they are being punished for doing the right thing as they...most of them...believe they are doing what's right day to day but being blasted for it it when their is little they as individuals can do. Hate makes hate makes hate. Shachi fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Dec 22, 2014 |
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Dec 22, 2014 19:16
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30.5 Days posted:No, he's acknowledging that police frequently murder people for fighting them and proposing that tasers are the e-cigarettes of unnecessary police shootings. Which would be oddly clear-eyed, but he's saying that like it's a good thing. 30.5 Days posted:Are you just not reading the posts or did you read them and subsequently decide to misrepresent them?  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 22, 2014 19:16
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Shachi posted:
What punishment have cops who are doing the right thing received other than negative public opinion? Please don't say getting killed because of one nut job that the entire country is saying kill cops. Vire fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Dec 22, 2014 |
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Dec 22, 2014 19:19
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He pointed to a scenario in which a cop shot a man for punching him as a potential situation in which a taser might have saved a life (though didn't go so far as to say the cop made the wrong decision, lol) and specifically pointed to scenarios in which cops are losing fistfights as a case in which a cop might shoot someone, but could instead use a taser. It wasn't a misrepresentation.
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Dec 22, 2014 19:21
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Vire posted:What punishment have cops who are doing the right thing received other than negative public opinion? Please don't say getting killed because of one nut job that entire country is saying kill cops. Cops are punished all the time for doing the right thing. http://thefreethoughtproject.com/police-departments-good-cops-buffalo-officer-fired-stopping-brutality/#qI0SLKXXCdjdErSJ.01
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Dec 22, 2014 19:22
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Vire posted:What punishment have cops who are doing the right thing received other than negative public opinion? Please don't say getting killed because of one nut job the entire country is saying kill cops. For cops who haven't done anything wrong, public opinion is the punishment. You can call out cops for being too thinned skinned but a constant stream of being told you're basically dogshit from those you wanted to help is kind a mind gently caress. Lately, I can't walk down the street in uniform without someone "hands-up don't shoot"ing me. I mean that stuff rolls off most of the time...but enough of it...over a long period of time can really gently caress with you. NYPD showing their rear end is basically a direct result of them perceiving de Blassio's comments being directed personally at them even though it isn't. It's hard for some people to understand I guess but when a person in a position like a Mayor or a president makes public criticism about something you 100% believe in and believe is intrinsically good...it can be hard to not take that personal. Doesn't mean its right.
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Dec 22, 2014 19:26
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Shachi posted:For cops who haven't done anything wrong, public opinion is the punishment. You can call out cops for being too thinned skinned but a constant stream of being told you're basically dogshit from those you wanted to help is kind a mind gently caress. It's good to hear this is happening. I hope you take the opportunity to have a conversation with that person.
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Dec 22, 2014 19:29
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SedanChair posted:It's good to hear this is happening. I hope you take the opportunity to have a conversation with that person. I usually just give them hugs. Seriously, you think a 15 year old is doing it because he wants to have a meaningful conversation or because he saw it on youtube and thinks it's funny. Or a guy doing it to impress his girlfriend as they are laughing. Yeah I'd like to sit down and pick his brain.
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Dec 22, 2014 19:30
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I'm sorry people are mean to you for constantly endangering the lives of minorities, that must be a drag.
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Dec 22, 2014 19:30
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Tasers have probably saved a few people's lives where they would have been shot. But they have definitely killed more than 12 people and are also frequently used as pain compliance devices by the police who escalate situations unnecessarily and then force electricity through people. Shachi, part of being a "good cop" is not being a niave idiot who posts poo poo like "Tasers have only killed 12 people". gently caress I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here but you're not really helping refute the argument tat "cop culture is busted and even relatively good cops have been brainwashed into believing stupid things and a destructive mindset."
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Dec 22, 2014 19:30
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30.5 Days posted:Cops are punished all the time for doing the right thing. Speaking of cops getting punished for good things and tasers getting used to gain compliance rather than instead of lethal force: http://www.ksbw.com/news/csumb-police-officer-investigated-for-not-using-taser/30049418 Its a 2-for-1!
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Dec 22, 2014 19:32
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botany posted:I'm sorry people are mean to you for constantly endangering the lives of minorities, that must be a drag. It's all the tasing I've received to make me so racist. I just can't help it. Yeah I'm done.
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Dec 22, 2014 19:33
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Hey guys stop saying police officers aren't punished for doing the right thing. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070666/
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Dec 22, 2014 19:36
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None of this should be construed to mean that the system is broken, though...
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Dec 22, 2014 19:36
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Shachi posted:It's all the tasing I've received to make me so racist. I just can't help it. I'm impressed you lasted this long to be honest despite all the cheap shots. I do commend you for at least coming in here and speaking your mind even if I don't agree with everything you said.
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Dec 22, 2014 19:37
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30.5 Days posted:Hey guys stop saying police officers aren't punished for doing the right thing. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070666/ Right I'm not saying what happened was right but you gotta understand cop emotions. We need to address the systemic issues in the police force but without even a hint of criticism or ego damage. If all citizens just treated cops like the infallible heroes they are in their own minds maybe we would have fewer problems. I'm all for justice and reform, just so long as no police have their feelings hurt or have to do any sort of self reflection, or really change their behavior or attitudes in any way because that's just asking too much of anyone (who is a cop).
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Dec 22, 2014 19:39
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It's just really hard when I walk down the street and people remind me of the fact they live with every day: that at any moment an officer could end their lives and neither I nor anyone else would do anything about it, even if I were standing right there watching it.
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Dec 22, 2014 19:41
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I'm sorry people aren't respecting the noble police officer enough for you. Seriously, how do you think ordinary folk feel about police, when they (especially minorities) could be a victim of police harassment, which is shockingly common? Maybe you don't ever do it, but lots and lots of cops, who are convinced that some person is suspicious, harass people they have zero reason to harass. Sorry, but I'm not very sympathetic when there's a history of harassment and violence towards minorities by police.
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Dec 22, 2014 19:41
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If you want to join a organization that helps people, the Police are probably some of the last you probably want to join. Be a Fireman, Emergency Worker, someone in the medical field in general. Or Teacher, hell a Defense Attorney, just anyone who isn't part of a loving gang that kills, brutalizes, and seizes property and dignity with no proper accountability. At this point in time the Police and Law Enforcement in general just isn't the place to be for good people who want to make a difference. Not until it drastically changes and gets cleaned up. VVV: Well considering good cops, whistleblowers, etc, are often victims of the bad ones and a broken system, as demonstrated above, I figure it would save them the trouble of going through that. If you concentrate all the racists, and assorted assholes into one convenient group, you can just dump them all at once. Berk Berkly fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Dec 22, 2014 |
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Dec 22, 2014 19:41
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So you support making sure law enforcement is only composed of the worst of the worst?
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Dec 22, 2014 19:44
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Cities just need to start setting up an entirely new police force from scratch then disbanding the existing force once the new one is ready. Probably their first job will be to stop the old police force after they go on a hurt-feelings induced rampage ending with them hole-up in their police stations with a bunch of hostages who didn't smile sincerely enough at them during their shooting spree.
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Dec 22, 2014 19:46
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Like I feel bad for anyone who takes a torrent of abuse especially when it wasn't their fault at all but cops don't get a pass on this. As someone who has both worked retail and been a public school teacher it was normal to have 8+ hours a day of constant mental abuse like it was part of the job description. It's just funny to see cops who have been so historically privileged in that regard can barely take it and then turn around and are shocked why we don't hail them as hero's.
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Dec 22, 2014 19:46
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Baronjutter posted:Cities just need to start setting up an entirely new police force from scratch then disbanding the existing force once the new one is ready. Probably their first job will be to stop the old police force after they go on a hurt-feelings induced rampage ending with them hole-up in their police stations with a bunch of hostages who didn't smile sincerely enough at them during their shooting spree. The problem with that sort of technique is it just shifts around the bad cops. So every cop in a current force can go apply somewhere else and claim, "well I was one of the good guys on a bad force." Bam, rehired to be a cop (since there's a bit of a shortage of willing recruits in many communities). See: Ferguson.
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Dec 22, 2014 19:54
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Trabisnikof posted:The problem with that sort of technique is it just shifts around the bad cops. So every cop in a current force can go apply somewhere else and claim, "well I was one of the good guys on a bad force." Bam, rehired to be a cop (since there's a bit of a shortage of willing recruits in many communities). See: Ferguson. For the most part I think it's the barrel that is rotten, not the apples. Put some of those bad cops in a good barrel where there are actual real consequences* for committing crimes or being a lovely cop and they'd either reform or wash out (or end up in prison). *beyond people hurting their feelings of authority on the street.
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Dec 22, 2014 20:00
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Shachi posted:I usually just give them hugs. Hmm, sounds like your mind is made up that 15 year old black kids are out to get you. At least you can tell they are 15.
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Dec 22, 2014 20:02
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Shachi posted:I usually just give them hugs. It's good that you make snap assumptions about people based on a three second interaction
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Dec 22, 2014 20:07
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Baronjutter posted:For the most part I think it's the barrel that is rotten, not the apples. Put some of those bad cops in a good barrel where there are actual real consequences* for committing crimes or being a lovely cop and they'd either reform or wash out (or end up in prison). I actually really don't think much work is needed to fix the system. Just legal consequences. Which is why I basically think this is an academic exercise, because Ta-Nehisi Coates is right. As a society, we don't want police to face consequences for the violence committed in our name, because we don't want the violence to stop. Just like we don't want people to face consequences for torturing, or for illegally feeding telecom data to the CIA. We want the government to break the law in pursuit of criminals/terrorists/outsiders. That's why the death of eric garner/hands up don't shoot/etc. are so important, because they carry the possibility to change minds about the consequences of police violence. That's also why Shachi is so loving ridiculous, because his complaints are about people openly expressing contrary ideas about the place of police in our society.
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Dec 22, 2014 20:07
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If you as a police officer are sad that people's first reaction to you is "please don't kill me or my friends/family" think how sad that person must feel about it!
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Dec 22, 2014 20:10
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Shachi posted:For cops who haven't done anything wrong, public opinion is the punishment. You can call out cops for being too thinned skinned but a constant stream of being told you're basically dogshit from those you wanted to help is kind a mind gently caress. Oh jeez, it's just so terrible that police officers are being stereotyped as dangerous and treated as potential threats based on group attributes and not because of their personal behavior  It's very tragic that we in America can't treat members of a group as individuals. Instead we have to use violent rhetoric against a group to unfairly persecute them. I'm glad it's only police being treated this way, the situation might be even worse if civilians were regarded in the same fashion.
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Dec 22, 2014 20:11
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Trabisnikof posted:If you as a police officer are sad that people's first reaction to you is "please don't kill me or my friends/family" think how sad that person must feel about it! Don't you understand I have divine their true purpose. It's to emasculate me in front of their girlfriends.
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Dec 22, 2014 20:12
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We're really got to nip this police disrespect thing in the bud. If it keeps happening people might start to really believe that the police are more likely to hurt them then help them.
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Dec 22, 2014 20:16
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