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Burkion posted:If I had to guess, it might tie into derailing this http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=003942 which was the big set up for Vriska's death scene. John may have also just distracted Terezi from assembling 'the red team'.
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Dec 24, 2014 18:11
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DalaranJ posted:John may have also just distracted Terezi from assembling 'the red team'. Everyone dies from meteors. Disaster averted, after a fashion.
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Dec 24, 2014 18:16
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Maybe she's conspiring to get Gamzee killed. Past self feels less whimsical, doesn't deign to invite him on pure strength of his name.
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Dec 24, 2014 18:19
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paranoid randroid posted:Everyone dies from meteors. Disaster averted, after a fashion. Ahahaha, what if John removes the trolls from the main plot and we get the version of the story Hussie was planning on telling back when he started and thought Homestuck would only last a year?
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Dec 24, 2014 18:49
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Slime posted:All the trolls get tiger. Dancestors included. This actually makes me think of a potential limit on John's power. So far he has only been able to alter the narrative as it exists. So, could he visit events in the dancestor session that we haven't seen (i.e., that weren't in the recap given by Aranea/Meenah)?
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Dec 24, 2014 19:01
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John can appear anywhere in the story, but with his current knowledge of his powers, he can only navigate via those passwords, which are all anchored to events Terezi remembers.
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Dec 24, 2014 19:05
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H.P. Shivcraft posted:Ahahaha, what if John removes the trolls from the main plot and we get the version of the story Hussie was planning on telling back when he started and thought Homestuck would only last a year? dare 2 dream
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Dec 24, 2014 19:39
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Feasibly, John could jump into a point with Aranea (or someone, but she seems best for it), as her to recap something from her session, then jump into the flashback. I'm not sure that's convoluted enough for Homestuck.
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Dec 24, 2014 20:04
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I'm curious to see if John is traveling into different points in time or different points in the narrative. Stopping the coin flip in terms of timeline is a very small thing that could lead to bigger changes but ultimately it's still minor. Stopping the coin flip in terms of narrative means that Terezi is never established as using coin flips initially, and later callbacks to coin flips and that execution wouldn't occur. That's a lot bigger a change. But I'm not sure which sort of thing he's supposed to be doing yet.
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Dec 24, 2014 20:11
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Kelp Plankton posted:I'm curious to see if John is traveling into different points in time or different points in the narrative. He is traveling to different points in the narrative. How else could he have been literally inside Con Air?
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Dec 24, 2014 20:13
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PleasingFungus posted:dare 2 dream Everyone's been working themselves into a tizzy over having authorial powers so no one has taken into account the need of a good editor, a service John can now provide. God, I actually really want this to happen.
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Dec 24, 2014 20:16
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The bucket of chalk in the Paradox Space comic appears to have been retconned into a box. It's admirable how water-resistant the container is.
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Dec 24, 2014 20:22
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I think Eridan got his own gift back.
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Dec 24, 2014 21:21
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Possible ways this could change things (from most to least likely) - Plush is used at a future memory to distract Terezi in some way. (She would be naturally curious about it, after all) - Terezi never starts doing the coin-flip thing, not blocked into 'stay or die' thinking in the Vriska confrontation (Vriska still dies, but they part on better terms?) - Terezi never starts doing the coin-flip thing, doesn't use it to torment Dave, doesn't run off crying, and is there when Eridan and Sollux have their showdown. Unlike Karkat, she is fully capable of acting in the heat of the moment and saves Feferi / The Matriorb. Also Nepeta gets saved somehow and maybe even Equius. These characters continue to have absolutely not consequence on the larger narrative. - Terezi never starts doing the coin-flip thing, not blocked into 'stay or die' thinking in the Vriska confrontation (Vriska lives, whoa the whole narrative has changed) - Terezi, distracted by the missing plush, never recruits Gamzee and he dies, stoned out of his gourd, on Alternia. The narrative is completely ruined and John has to fix things again later. The only way I can see Vriska surviving the confrontation with Terezi is if she somehow spends the next three years in the dreambubbles anyway. Like, things play out exactly the same, but her eyes aren't white. Bobulus fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Dec 24, 2014 |
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Dec 24, 2014 21:38
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or Terezi is a weird troll girl and she takes the outcome of her make believe plush trial very seriously and wanted to change it.
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Dec 24, 2014 21:41
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Bobulus posted:- Terezi, distracted by the missing plush, never recruits Gamzee and he dies, stoned out of his gourd, on Alternia.
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Dec 24, 2014 21:41
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I'm sure we'd all like to see Gamzee die and/or never be involved in the narrative, but he's done too many important things that, if they were removed, would make the narrative nonsensical and thus ruined. - Filled John's dreams with clowns, resulting in John drawing on the walls, resulting in Dad buying harlequins, resulting in the clown doll getting prototyped, resulting in Jack Noire rebelling, resulting in... - Raised Calliope and Caliborn, supplying them with the computer equipment to play sburb and contact the Alpha kids. - Dealt a big blow to the Black King, without which, the trolls might not have won. If you took Gamzee out of the story, you'd basically have to start over from Act 1 to show all the differences.
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Dec 24, 2014 21:47
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Bobulus posted:If you took Gamzee out of the story, you'd basically have to start over from Act 1 to show all the differences. This would be the chronologically earliest point the instructions on the scarf can send John to, while this, four pages earlier, is the narratively earliest point.
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Dec 24, 2014 21:52
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Bobulus posted:If you took Gamzee out of the story, you'd basically have to start over from Act 1 to show all the differences. I see no problem with this 
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Dec 24, 2014 21:53
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Well Terezi stopped doing the trial, and is now smelling out the window. There could be something that happens out there. Or Terezi ends up being the first one in instead. Which would make it so Sollux didn't tell Karkat to stop playing the game, and resulting in Karkat running that program and exploding his computer. I forget what that actually affected specifically.
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Dec 24, 2014 22:24
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I took it as Terezi smelling John out there, which means John is already loving up the plan.
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Dec 24, 2014 22:31
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Blackheart posted:I took it as Terezi smelling John out there, which means John is already loving up the plan. Obviously Terezi would know she'd be easily able to smell John, so she made past-her smelling him into part of her plan.
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Dec 24, 2014 22:33
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John has eluded Bec Noir AND Dogtier Jade's sense of smell which could track individuals across the universe. Something tells me Terezi can't smell him.
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Dec 24, 2014 22:49
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Honestly, if Terezi never kills Vriska and somehow just stalls her til they blast off for the Green Sun and then the new session, nothing much really changes in the greater plot, because until they all died in Game Over, the trolls didn't actually do much for those three years. Plus on the way through the bubbles Vriska can meet her deadself who did die to Terezi and receive her character upgrade that way I guess?
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Dec 24, 2014 23:08
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The true plan is to
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Dec 24, 2014 23:10
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Bongo Bill posted:This would be the chronologically earliest point the instructions on the scarf can send John to, while this, four pages earlier, is the narratively earliest point. He's right though, that if Gamzee was neutralized in Hivebent then it'd have repercussions in Act 1 since John's Dad's love of clowns was only inspired because he thought John loved clowns, because John scrawled clowns on the wall in his sleep due to the influence of Gamzee. Anyway, things are so tenuous at the moment that speculation is incredibly difficult. It'll be good to see more of John messing with stuff just to help rough out what rules we're operating under here. If he skips forward again and we see someone alive who had been dead before, and then we see what affect that has on the dream bubbles, that is when we might have some idea of what's going on. The hardest part about this unstuck in canon business is what will constitute the "present" now? John has his LOWAS off in non-story space with a stashed Roxy, but what about the rest of the timeline? I think Caliborn also might be "safe" from John's canon-changes in the same way, meaning even if John wrote out Gamzee the Caliborn we've met would keep existing paradox or no.
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Dec 24, 2014 23:18
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In the sense of narrative rather than time, the only "present" that exists in any meaningful sense is the most recent panel.
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Dec 24, 2014 23:20
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Kgummy posted:Well Terezi stopped doing the trial, and is now smelling out the window. There could be something that happens out there. Or Terezi ends up being the first one in instead. It's suggested that Karkat running that program is what set the server in the Outer Ring running, thus letting LE into their universe. Which, hey, if Karkat didn't do that, it'd certainly change things, I guess, even if it's not entirely clear how that code running let LE in anyway. It's also, incidentally, what seems to have created the Green Sun. I don't think is precisely what will happen, though, since the trolls initially navigated the meteor by pinpointing the Sun. I suppose this is the full implication of the "cascade" of unfortunate events leading up to and contained in [S] Cascade, since any little change John makes can potentially warp the entire narrative in huge ways. And while we're at it, let's take a moment to remember the Green Sun and wonder what the hell it's doing since it hasn't really even been talked about since it was last seen. We know creating it was part of Scratch's trap and seems to be a power source for Sburb's First Guardians. Does it also power LE? Maybe, though First Guardians tend to associate with Space (the color green, Bec and Jade, Scratch and Kanaya) and LE is a Lord of Time. We also know young Caliborn is currently locked inside a session in black hole that is slowly devouring a red supergiant, befitting of a Time player. Is this significant, or simply a thematic parallel, a meaningless bit of ornamentation? Did Hussie forget about the Sun thing entirely? It's impossible to tell. Welcome to Homestuck.
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Dec 24, 2014 23:38
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Bongo Bill posted:In the sense of narrative rather than time, the only "present" that exists in any meaningful sense is the most recent panel. That's true of all stories, though. It's the time part that's important, since up til now the story has stuck to systems like beta and alpha timelines, the dream bubbles, and rules about how they all interact. John breaking free of that is muddying up the narrative - does Dave exist at the moment? John could go and visit him on any point of his personal timeline and mess around, making changes to Dave's life, but I don't think the story could check in on Dave right now since Dave just exists as a timeline, ending with his death in Game Over, that John is operating on. The fact that we keep checking in on Vriska and Meenah is pretty interesting by contrast. They still seem to have a "present" the story can follow.
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Dec 24, 2014 23:44
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Classtoise posted:John has eluded Bec Noir AND Dogtier Jade's sense of smell which could track individuals across the universe. Something tells me Terezi can't smell him. Both Bec Noir and Jade could detect John, if I remember correctly, they just couldn't track him.
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Dec 24, 2014 23:58
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I hope this is just because the Witness was innocent and Terezi wants to save him out of a sense of justice. (Someone else already said this, but I really want this to be the case.)
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Dec 25, 2014 01:34
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poo poo, is anyone going to be Santa?
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Dec 25, 2014 01:46
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im gonna draw the conksuckiest boot i ever drew, just in case
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Dec 25, 2014 01:59
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Dolash posted:That's true of all stories, though. It's the time part that's important, since up til now the story has stuck to systems like beta and alpha timelines, the dream bubbles, and rules about how they all interact. John breaking free of that is muddying up the narrative - does Dave exist at the moment? John could go and visit him on any point of his personal timeline and mess around, making changes to Dave's life, but I don't think the story could check in on Dave right now since Dave just exists as a timeline, ending with his death in Game Over, that John is operating on. Yes. Yes, it is true of all stories. It is also, by extension, true of this story. Time travel, in this story, establishes "rules" whereby we can understand certain as having taken place even though they aren't explicitly shown. Rules are not a story. What's going on now is that the story is literally being changed, by having pages added to it. These new pages depict new events that are based on the idea of previously depicted events playing out differently. They're not actually changing those events, though, because the old pages still exist. Every story establishes rules, or assumptions about the way things work, which allow the reader to extrapolate a sort of deuterocanonical world-state from what they've read. I'm not just talking about time travel in this case, but even things like the rule that the characters depicted in the story should be thought of as generally thinking and acting like people. Homestuck has introduced, and is currently following, a more lenient and metafictitious set of rules than most stories bother with. Specifically, these new rules indicate that the events within the story now work like... a comic, not like reality or a detailed reality-based fantasy. The non-equivalence between the words and pixels you view and the ideas you imagine as a result is exactly what this plotline is about (or, at least, that's the idea that I imagine as a result of viewing the words and pixels that have been uploaded recently, and I think you should too). The events of a story exist in the mind of the reader and the mind of the author (and in the case of the Homestuck, the line between those two is blurry). Homestuck is a story within a story, and although John is still a character in the outer story, he is outside of the inner story, along with three other characters. Because it is fiction, he has the ability to interact in a literal sense with the inner story, which is probably best thought of as a metaphor for the way that stories come to life in the mind of the reader. Fittingly, he is being guided by a Seer of Mind. In the inner story, the current status of Dave and the others is just how we left them: they're fuckin' dead. In the outer story, they're fictional, and exist only in the sense that a comic about them was written, until the actual author writes about the wall separating one made-up story thing from the other made-up story thing allowing them to permeate in some way. It's also being intercut with scenes that are apparently from the inner story, though their significance is still ambiguous. Bongo Bill fucked around with this message at 02:31 on Dec 25, 2014 |
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Dec 25, 2014 02:27
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Bongo Bill posted:Time travel, in this story, establishes "rules" whereby we can understand certain as having taken place even though they aren't explicitly shown. Rules are not a story. What's going on now is that the story is literally being changed, by having pages added to it. These new pages depict new events that are based on the idea of previously depicted events playing out differently. They're not actually changing those events, though, because the old pages still exist. I get the feeling that the only reason Hussie isn't actually changing the story is because he
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Dec 25, 2014 03:44
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Moddington posted:I get the feeling that the only reason Hussie isn't actually changing the story is because he Save/load doesn't work period. I'm rereading and I've saved every single time (even deleting my game data before saving sometimes) yet even though I'm here it still loads me back in act four.
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Dec 25, 2014 04:48
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curiousTerminal posted:Save/load doesn't work period. I'm rereading and I've saved every single time (even deleting my game data before saving sometimes) yet even though I'm here it still loads me back in act four. I think it has to do something with how browsers store cookies, and how technically they're considered different websites, even though it's actually the same thing. And there are sites that have subsites using that space, so ignoring that first section would probably break things.
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Dec 25, 2014 07:09
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When Terezi first trolls John she will recognize him, and the instructions might have John intercept that first meeting. I see this like her arranging Dave to send all those boonbucks. The difference being one closed a time loop and this is going to bust possibilities open.
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Dec 25, 2014 13:33
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H.P. Shivcraft posted:It's suggested that Karkat running that program is what set the server in the Outer Ring running, thus letting LE into their universe. Which, hey, if Karkat didn't do that, it'd certainly change things, I guess, even if it's not entirely clear how that code running let LE in anyway. It's also, incidentally, what seems to have created the Green Sun. I don't think is precisely what will happen, though, since the trolls initially navigated the meteor by pinpointing the Sun. I suppose this is the full implication of the "cascade" of unfortunate events leading up to and contained in [S] Cascade, since any little change John makes can potentially warp the entire narrative in huge ways. Didn't he just download it from that server onto his computer?
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Dec 25, 2014 15:19
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MarquiseMindfang posted:Honestly, if Terezi never kills Vriska and somehow just stalls her til they blast off for the Green Sun and then the new session, nothing much really changes in the greater plot, because until they all died in Game Over, the trolls didn't actually do much for those three years. Plus on the way through the bubbles Vriska can meet her deadself who did die to Terezi and receive her character upgrade that way I guess? Having a not-dead luck manipulator on their side would, in fact, be a change.
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Dec 25, 2014 15:42
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