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my dad posted:I think his point was that the only reason Lenin seems better is that he never got a chance to do what he wanted to do. Stalin was a truer believer in the policies of Lenin than Lenin, and was afforded the platform, opportunity, and capacity to attempt their implementation. The USSR was a hosed up empire, with its politicians choosing the politically opportune paths over the austerity and increased effective rates of progressive taxation necesssary for development. Rather, they determined to return their economy to the barter system, and succeeded beyond their wildest dreams.
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Dec 25, 2014 22:39
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kalstrams posted:Genocide is some word some people got out of somewhere, which is not necessarily applicable to Baltics, Jews aside. Unless we're talking about genocide science and whether if ethnic cleansing is ethnic genocide and polito-economico-cultural cleansings are structural genocide. Im not sure that polito-economico-cultural cleansings or structural genocide mean anything, but thanks!
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Dec 25, 2014 22:51
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sugar free jazz posted:Im not sure that polito-economico-cultural cleansings or structural genocide mean anything, but thanks!
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Dec 25, 2014 22:59
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Disinterested posted:I argued there was a discontinuity of ethnic policy between the two, you have argued variously that the two are generally part of a continuity but that Lenin, if anything, had the worse ethnic policy. Care to elaborate? Yeah, fair enough. Lenin was a hardcore Marxist extremist with a dream of communist international. All his policies were more extreme than Stalin's, the more pragmatic one. My argument is that while Lenin's ethinc policy is quite nice, on paper, but so is Stalin's. On paper. It's the execution that's the problem. Lenin didn't get the chance to execute his policies beyond some token gestures, like giving (or allowing) the independence to some nationalist republics he hasn't been able to hold anyways. It's a pretty big what if, but I am still confident that had he had enough consolidated power, he'd crack down on anything that tries to impede his precious dream like a ton of Stalins. And any notion of nationalism, especially bourgeous nationalism, is a great impediment. my dad posted:I think his point was that the only reason Lenin seems better is that he never got a chance to do what he wanted to do. Yeah, pretty much. My Imaginary GF posted:Stalin was a truer believer in the policies of Lenin than Lenin, and was afforded the platform, opportunity, and capacity to attempt their implementation. The USSR was a hosed up empire, with its politicians choosing the politically opportune paths over the austerity and increased effective rates of progressive taxation necesssary for development. Rather, they determined to return their economy to the barter system, and succeeded beyond their wildest dreams. lol
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Dec 25, 2014 23:12
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Cuntpunch posted:I'm not taking on the ethnic cleansing angle, I'm talking about pure and simple human rights abuses and cultural outlook on its own citizens. I've got ties to Poland, and that definitely colors my views, but I struggle to balance out that bias with facts in a manner that doesn't make Russia look pretty bad. To be clear, my girlfriend grew up in Soviet Poland - neighbors would disappear in the night or just get shot in the street for dissent. There's another Pole in the neighborhood we know who fled in the 80s because he had been distributing an underground newsletter and got tipped off that the secret police were coming, so he fled West with nothing but the shirt on his back. These stories are not unique and anyone living under the Soviets understands that. This is what I always come back to, in my mind. I grew up in cold-war America and while I disagreed from an early age about the cold-war and american foreign policy, I never felt fearful of stating these things out loud, to family or teachers. This is how I weigh the sins of Russia and understand their context. I live in a country that your average Russian-apologist will point at and shout "they do it too!" but at the end of the day when the sins are tallied up, there's just no comparison. They also have like 3 different European cultural groups living there natively which was kind of my point. Its a multi ethnic state without an official policy of homogenising
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Dec 25, 2014 23:12
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kalstrams posted:Structural genocide is kind-of complicated to explain, and neither am I qualified for that in its entirety, but the former one is a clumsy attempt to sum up measures taken to get rid of people who had important role in politics, economy or culture of the respective Baltic states. Yeah, also known as kinda not genocide exactly but we really really want to call it genocide so
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Dec 25, 2014 23:14
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blainestereo posted:Yeah, also known as kinda not genocide exactly but we really really want to call it genocide so if the culture disappears and lots of them get murdered what does it matter
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Dec 25, 2014 23:17
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So, does anyone have any info about the stuff going on in Ukraine right now? I mean, the past few weeks were mostly spent talking about stuff that isn't Ukraine, and complaining about talking about stuff that isn't Ukraine. Anything new happening?
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Dec 25, 2014 23:33
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chitoryu12 posted:Wow. We're really at the point where a debate has come up over whether the man who killed between 34 and 59 million people during his dictatorship was a "moderate" compared to anyone else. Well, that was literally the question, I'm sorry. It's absurd, but I was asked to comment on this, and so I did. I have to agree, though, that historical discussions are not very productive in what is essentially a thread about current events. I will not even argue about the numbers you've mentioned.
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Dec 25, 2014 23:40
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There were peace talks in Minsk on the 24th and I think another round is set for the 26th. The ceasefire is mostly holding as far as I can tell. Gazprom is delivering gas. Ukraine renounced its non aligned status, I forget if that got posted here.
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Dec 25, 2014 23:47
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my dad posted:So, does anyone have any info about the stuff going on in Ukraine right now? I mean, the past few weeks were mostly spent talking about stuff that isn't Ukraine, and complaining about talking about stuff that isn't Ukraine. Anything new happening? Mightypeon is the prime mover behind the Ukrainian civil war
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Dec 25, 2014 23:49
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my dad posted:So, does anyone have any info about the stuff going on in Ukraine right now? I mean, the past few weeks were mostly spent talking about stuff that isn't Ukraine, and complaining about talking about stuff that isn't Ukraine. Anything new happening? Those Ukrainian made Kraz armored cars that were being paraded around Kyiv on Independence day finally made it to the front. 
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Dec 25, 2014 23:54
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Also, seems like an agreement on exchange of POWs has been made during the first round of peace talks.
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Dec 25, 2014 23:56
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So why is the Ruble suddenly regaining ground? Crazy Russian billionaires buying them up?
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Dec 26, 2014 00:03
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Amused to Death posted:So why is the Ruble suddenly regaining ground? Crazy Russian billionaires buying them up? Oil's stabilizing, the central bank is probably continuing to throw money at it. The damage is done, though.
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Dec 26, 2014 00:09
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Amused to Death posted:So why is the Ruble suddenly regaining ground? Crazy Russian billionaires buying them up? Selling frenzy is over, oil prices stabilized, the government continues to sell of its dollar reserve, central bank actually managed to formulate some sort of coherent currency policy, things are quiet in Ukraine, take your pick. It's still due to fall horribly because the economy is hosed, just not as sharply as the last week.
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Dec 26, 2014 00:09
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New York Times has 2014 year in pictures. Contains images from Euromaidan. http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/12/28/sunday-review/2014-year-in-pictures.html?slide=2014-yip-january-slide-AIND&name=yearinpictures Discendo Vox posted:Oil's stabilizing, the central bank is probably continuing to throw money at it. The damage is done, though. Wait until after the holidays. Oil will start dropping again.
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Dec 26, 2014 00:10
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Russian foreign cash reserves. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/russian-reserves-fall-below-400-billion-first-time-131941664--sector.html
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Dec 26, 2014 01:59
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Apparently the Rada greatly expanded the powers of the NSDC today. It now has the power to declare a states of emergency, martial law, and war. I'm phone posting but a description of the law is on the Ukrainska Pravda website.
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Dec 26, 2014 02:16
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kalstrams posted:Russian foreign cash reserves. That's a significant hit. I wonder how much more they're willing to take to keep the ruble stable.
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Dec 26, 2014 02:17
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kalstrams posted:Russian foreign cash reserves. $15billion/week burn will certainly make for lively happenings in Russia. I think the Russian financial sector will experience quite the liquidity issues in 1Q15.
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Dec 26, 2014 02:37
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My Imaginary GF posted:$15billion/week burn will certainly make for lively happenings in Russia. I think the Russian financial sector will experience quite the liquidity issues in 1Q15. It's not a 15 billion burn a week. a large proportion of that was part of a separate transaction and will return shortly. Even with that aside, the average expenditures going forward will likely be much lower.
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Dec 26, 2014 02:52
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I don't know if I want to bring up the previous discussion on Lenin but very little of it is actually corroborated by sources or is readily accepted by most of Anglophone/American academics. Lenin if anything was a relative pragmatist and this is readily shown in mounts of documents, he ran the council of people's commissars like a cabinet and while commissars were fired they weren't executed while he was alive. The NEP is very far from a radical plan of action, and the Soviets were regularly negotiating with Western companies on concessions as early as 1919. I can give you a few thousand pages of archival references. If anything the most radical "Bolshevik" language in meeting starts to peter out as early as January 1918. He wasn't a "nice guy" but saying that he was just another Stalin is considered laughable today. As far as Korenizatsiya, it was in fact implemented and there is plenty of evidence on it, and while you could say the breath of ethnic and national cultures allowed in though was molded by ideological beliefs but at least during the 1920s, there was at least broad cultural autonomy. Read Affirmative Action Empire by Terry Martin for more info. I mean the stuff in this thread usually you hear from the most right of the field and regional nationalist historians. Anyway this is regularly more than a thread about current events, usually most D&D threads are. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Dec 26, 2014 |
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Dec 26, 2014 02:54
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Eastern Europe: Actually, it's about Ethnics in Gorby Paternalism
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Dec 26, 2014 02:57
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Mysterious Writer posted:
In December of 1922, these remarks on the nationalities issue were published throughout the Soviet Union, intended as a rebuke to Stalin, who was specifically named. Which person were they written by? A) Karl Kautsky B) Nicolai Bukharin C) Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn D) Lenin E) Primary sources are for fags, I think what I want Hint: the same guy said: "Пожалуйста, не обучайте меня, что взять или что откинуть от марксизма, яйца курицу не учат!" Smerdyakov fucked around with this message at 03:07 on Dec 26, 2014 |
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Dec 26, 2014 03:03
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Discendo Vox posted:Eastern Europe: Actually, it's about Ethnics in Gorby Paternalism Sometimes even bad arguments need to be addressed.
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Dec 26, 2014 03:03
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Oh, I'm agnostic on all these debates- I don't know enough soviet history to have an opinion beyond on issues of political philosophy. I just find this whole extended exchange amusingly DnD, both in content and how it's shifted over time. The official site just got the numbers up for the week of the 19th. The next full monthly breakdown should be interesting.
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Dec 26, 2014 03:10
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I'm just baffled by the number of people who are ranting past each-other. A series of monologues masquerading as a dialogue by quoting another monologue before proceeding.
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Dec 26, 2014 03:15
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Smerdyakov posted:In December of 1922, these remarks on the nationalities issue were published throughout the Soviet Union, intended as a rebuke to Stalin, who was specifically named. Which person were they written by? К вопросу о национальностях или об «автономизации»
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Dec 26, 2014 03:21
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my dad posted:I'm just baffled by the number of people who are ranting past each-other. A series of monologues masquerading as a dialogue by quoting another monologue before proceeding. These things were easier in the days where you simply preached your sermon to the flock of believers, who are only looking for the familiar key-phrases that signal group identity and belonging, then settle disputes with those who disagree with war. The problem with the internet is you can throw the speeches at each other but there's simply no way to come to grips with each other and shut the other guy up. I'm not saying this as someone immune to nationalism or tribalism, even in this very thread, but the rambling about musty Soviet history is an especially unreadable case. Then again, this is the debate and discussion Eastern Europe thread, so it's not like it's off-topic. Dolash fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Dec 26, 2014 |
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Dec 26, 2014 03:46
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Dolash posted:These things were easier in the days where you simply preached your sermon to the flock of believers, who are only looking for the familiar key-phrases that signal group identity and belonging, then settle disputes with those who disagree with war. The problem with the internet is you can throw the speeches at each other but there's simply no way to come to grips with each other and shut the other guy up. I fully agree. The thread title suggestions are just all I can do to contribute when the discussion takes this turn- I certainly have no complaints as long as it doesn't completely consume the discourse. Hey, thread question: What ethnic group in East Europe, over the course or recorded history in the region, is least oppressed?
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Dec 26, 2014 04:29
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Discendo Vox posted:I fully agree. The thread title suggestions are just all I can do to contribute when the discussion takes this turn- I certainly have no complaints as long as it doesn't completely consume the discourse. I think almost all of Eastern Europe would agree with answering, the Germans.
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Dec 26, 2014 04:32
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My Imaginary GF posted:I think almost all of Eastern Europe would agree with answering, the Germans. I also doubt that question is answerable, unless it serves purely provocative goals.
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Dec 26, 2014 04:33
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I would say Mongols , mostly out of ignorance of their history. Really, if you are going for recorded history it sucks for everyone, as far as regular people are concerned.
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Dec 26, 2014 04:38
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Do we count only natives or every group here ever? Latter does not seem to make for a meaningful question. Edit: Definition of natives on the timescale is also a headache then.
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Dec 26, 2014 04:41
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Russians plan a protest in front of the US Embassy in Moscow because twitter banned Kremlin trolls. https://twitter.com/kreatyvna100/status/548251702529642496 Also happening tomorrow, maybe, more reconciliation talks in Minsk. http://sputniknews.com/politics/20141226/1016245904.html
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Dec 26, 2014 04:43
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kalstrams posted:No one would put them into Eastern Europe. They put themselves there quite frequently over the past few centuries. 
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Dec 26, 2014 04:45
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Nintendo Kid posted:They put themselves there quite frequently over the past few centuries.
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Dec 26, 2014 04:49
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Yeah, the "Mongols" themselves were very ethnically syncretic themselves. Supposedly, anti-Americanism is way way up in Moscow, and Western businessmen have been leaving. I think it is going to be touch and go for a while, reserves will be burnt off and on for a while. The Russians still need higher oil prices.
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Dec 26, 2014 04:52
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kalstrams posted:I addressed that a post later than the one you quote. As a Latvian I am quite aware of Germans in Eastern Europe. No you didn't, as it was a joke about Germans invading in World War I and World War II. (as well as various annexations and other wars, but primarily the Kaiser and the Fuhrer).
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Dec 26, 2014 05:03
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