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Dalael posted:Seriously, I don't know why I bother arguing with you since you probably haven't even bothered to read Plato's work and will definitely not bother to read Jim Allen's papers. I will happily read and discuss any peer-reviewed academic literature he has produced on the subject.
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Dec 27, 2014 21:37
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I've done no-poo poo actual archeological work. His papers are godawful rubbish that would be chopped to bits by any Archeology 101 professor on God's green Earth.
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Dec 27, 2014 21:41
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How the gently caress are you all letting Daleal run you around in circles like this? You're not going to convince him because he's either crazy or trolling and nobody else here believes him. Now does anyone know why we don't have awesome names like 'Hadescember' for our months?
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Dec 27, 2014 21:45
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:I've done no-poo poo actual archeological work. That sounds rather constipating. Guys, guys, I think you're being trolled. Chill out.
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Dec 27, 2014 21:45
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I know I know, but just out of morbid curiosity...Dalael posted:Unfortunately, everything seems to be buried at the moment. There are more than circumstancial evidence of man-made channels. The Altiplano is completly crisscrossed with what looks like really old man made channels. So why are we using hedgerows in Mexico to illustrate a presumed archaeological site in Bolivia?
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Dec 27, 2014 21:51
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More can be seen (and read about) here:
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Pellisworth posted:I will happily read and discuss any peer-reviewed academic literature he has produced on the subject. I will try to look for some and add them to the next thread. But it may actually be hard to find. When sending a portfolio of Atlantis in Bolivia evidence to the head of a Cambridge college who was also a leading archaeologist, the material was returned unexamined with the note "Atlantis is a subject in which I have never been interested." Often times, as soon as you mention the word Atlantis, people simply dismiss it. As of right this moment, I cannot verify that claim without contacting Jim Allen, asking him who was the person he sent the package to and then contacting that person. Remember that I am an amateur, in no way an academic and digging through all that information would/will take time considering I am unsure where to start with all this. I also have no connection to Jim Allen and even doubt he would take my call because I want more information to argue with people on an internet comedy forum.
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Dec 27, 2014 21:53
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Guys, guys! Some guy called W. Eirdo McRazy has told me in his second treatize about furniture how I can find the wardrobe leading to Narnia! Now he isn't a scientist and he also isn't a specialist for furniture, but he writes really sincerely and he has studied the works of C. S. Lewis very, very closely. This of course means he must be right and I will now not shut up about Mr. McRazy's theory about how this one special wardrobe he found in New Orleans leads to Narnia, A Real Place That Exists!
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Dec 27, 2014 21:56
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Dalael posted:
Because you and him are both dumb enough to not understand that Atlantis never existed and whatever he thinks he's found has been done a disservice by insistence on tying into a fictional location.
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Dec 27, 2014 21:59
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dupersaurus posted:I know I know, but just out of morbid curiosity... Actually, that is my mistake. The picture I linked are square plots of 10 x 10 stades of 165 ft (1,000 x 1,000 Sumerian cubits) in the Tabasco region of Mexico. I was a bit hasty when I linked this one. The one I should have linked, are at these coordinates: 16 09 12.53S, 68 31 26.31W
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Dec 27, 2014 22:08
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my dad posted:That sounds rather constipating. shhhh
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Dec 27, 2014 22:12
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Nintendo Kid posted:He clearly hasn't read them extensively if he thinks a a random plain in the middle of South America matches Atlantis because a few points on it kinda line up, moron. I said so and you laughed at me! Well, who's laughing now? Who's laughing now?
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Dec 27, 2014 22:16
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most of the thread
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Dec 27, 2014 22:17
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I'm persuaded. Plato had extensive knowledge of South America and the reason why those of his contemporaries who wrote histories and geographies of every corner of the world known to the Greeks failed to mention that place at all is
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Dec 27, 2014 22:51
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Plato's teacher was accused of bringing strange gods into the city and later killed himself by drinking poison. Thousands of years later, the members of the People's Temple cult killed themselves by drinking poison in South America. You can't deny the connection here. e: It should also be noted that Plato wrote extensively about reincarnation. fantastic in plastic fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Dec 27, 2014 |
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Dec 27, 2014 22:57
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You know who else got laughed out of the room for his crazy ideas?? Albert Einstein. Checkmate.
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Dec 27, 2014 23:20
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Dalael, I realize you're angry right now and not really thinking. Take a step back and look at how the evidence is treated. Plato's statement that Atlantis was an island is simply waved away. So too is Atlantis sinking. But the presence in canals is taken as highly significant, even though people have been building canals in all parts of the world for thousands of years. Why shouldn't there be canals on any large plain? Why do they have to be tied to Atlantis? And again, the problem that the canals aren't the shape Plato described is ignored. The author is doing nothing more than shouting about anything that supports his theory and ignoring the rest. That's the way lawyers work, to persuade a jury, not the way science works. You need to be impartial and admit all the evidence, not just the parts you like. Look, I've been fooled by con artists too. They're very good at it; that's how they stay in business.
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Dec 28, 2014 00:04
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:The guy is a moron who posts too much about video games and bad television, stop responding to him. What tv shows, this is important.
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Dec 28, 2014 00:54
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Frostwerks posted:What tv shows, this is important. You know they probably could've invaded Athens with the help of some ancient aliens
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Dec 28, 2014 01:21
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To take the thread in a different direction, does anyone know why Roman coins look so beat up and crappy? Minting coins doesn't seem all that complicated, and the Romans were smart dudes, but maybe metal casting is quite a bit more complicated than it looks. Or is this just the effects of soft metals and a long time? Basically, why this:  And not this? 
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Dec 28, 2014 01:39
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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I assume they were being clipped deliberately by counterfeiters, or by some industrious individual who could meltvthe clippings into ingots?
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Dec 28, 2014 01:49
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I know nothing about minting coins, but I'm guessing there was a lot more manual handwork involved back then than there is now. Also, time degrades all.
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Dec 28, 2014 02:04
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Mass manufacturing coins by hand leads to a lot more variation. Also, the Romans didn't have access to hardened steel to make dies with, having to use iron or bronze instead, which meant the blanks had to be struck while they were hot, which is the source of a lot of the edge weirdness. There are examples of really drat good coins from that era, and some pretty shockingly bad ones too. Apparently during economic down-turns or other times of strife, they would just keep on using the dies even after they were worn down, cracked, etc. Makes sense when the volume of coins and the quality of the metallurgy suggests they would have had to be making a new set of dies every day for optimal quality. Also, yes, there were quite a few unofficial mints and attempted counterfeits. Some of the later coins start to have additional security features as well as stuff like cuts showing the cross-section of the coin to prove it was pure and not just surfaced in precious metals with a cheap core. hailthefish fucked around with this message at 02:12 on Dec 28, 2014 |
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Dec 28, 2014 02:09
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BurningStone posted:Dalael, I realize you're angry right now I apologize if at any point I gave the impression that I was angry. I was simply trying to have a discussion.
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Dec 28, 2014 02:54
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Dalael I really want to thank you because I am writing a series of classes on research and logical fallacies and this is a gold mine.Jim Allen posted:The question has always been, was Plato's Atlantis based on a real place andreal events, or was it simply a story he made up? This is a logical fallacy that Plato's student Aristotle identified as "ignoring the question" and you can see why. Jim Allen poses the question of whether Plato intended Atlantis as a fictional place, and proposes to answer it by attempting to find real places that match Plato's description. That will not answer the question of whether Plato intended to describe a real place. And really, this is all cherry-picking and confirmation bias. Look those up if you haven't because the entire argument is founded on ignoring evidence. In his first page Jim Allen has already dismissed half of Plato's claims about Atlantis while assuming that the rest of them are infallible; infallible to the point that when they take him to a desert salt pan in Bolivia he doesn't reexamine them. That's crazy. Also from this I learned that Lake Titicaca feeds Lake Poopo and that's just funny. Also just a look at wikipedia will tell you the area around Lake Poopo has been inhabited for 2000 years, so trying to prove signs of habitation there is pretty fruitless. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Dec 28, 2014 |
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Dec 28, 2014 03:27
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I bet hand minting coins is really annoying and they just didn't care about making them perfect, as long as they fit all the requirements. I'm increasingly convinced Dalael is Jim Allen, also.
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Dec 28, 2014 03:28
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Dalael posted:I apologize if at any point I gave the impression that I was angry. I was simply trying to have a discussion. No, you're not trying to have a discussion, you're trying to evangelize. But don't let that stop you typing long hilarious screeds against the oppression of hidebound orthodoxy.
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Dec 28, 2014 03:49
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I got a stupidly vague question that will hopefully lead to some less vague questions. What happened to the Phoenicians? It looks like they were everywhere, setting up colonies all over the Mediterranean. I guess Carthage was a colony of theirs and I know how that worked out but what about the rest? And why does there seem to be no substantial writing by them that I can find at all? Their alphabet is pretty famous but I cant find much of anything actually written in it. I'm trying to get a sense of how they lived and stuff with some basic googling and I feel like I just can't find much of anything, every other empire or culture has quite a bit but the Phoenicians just existed, I think everyone hated them (??) and then they stopped existing.
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Dec 28, 2014 03:59
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They all gradually got conquered and absorbed into other states. There wasn't a big Phoenician state or anything, just a common culture with colonies all over the Mediterranean. They kept getting beaten up and absorbed by their more powerful neighbors, Carthage being the biggest of those events. Their culture just faded away eventually The Persians and the Macedonians happened to the Phoenicians, and ultimately, Rome happened to them. I think we don't have writing by them because nobody was interested in preserving it. It's a minor miracle whenever we have any writing at all from people 2500 years ago, losing it from a culture that got wiped out by people who didn't care about preserving their texts isn't all that weird. But unfortunate.
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Dec 28, 2014 04:04
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This is funny: the Atlantis story closely parallels some Greek legends about conflict with the Persians and Phoenicians. This is evidence that the South American Atlantians allied with the Persians and may even have given them some tips on how to build their fortifications. The level of mental evasion is astounding. Also, Plato's description of the Atlantians' horsemanship doesn't match South America. This will never be mentioned again in all three papers.
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Dec 28, 2014 04:07
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For the original Syrian/Lebanon home ports I think it was the Neo-Assyrian Empire that really started to put the boot into them politically instead of just financially as had been the rule. Then Alexander the Great is probably the point where they became just slightly more privileged cities who provided fleets to Ptolmeys/Seleucids etc instead of somewhat independent polities. As for the colonies the first two Punic wars saw them pretty much engulfed by Rome with Latinization following quickly. Most of them had switched allegiance to Carthage after Assyrian/Babylonian/Persian disruptions of the home lands. Carthage itself got the whole Cato the Eldar treatment after the third and last war and it wasn't a prestige language of any sort. The only real bit literature we have is some parts of a farming manual that were translated as far as I'm aware
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Dec 28, 2014 04:07
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BrainDance posted:I got a stupidly vague question that will hopefully lead to some less vague questions. Phoenicia was one of several small states that suddenly grew and flourished in the power vacuum created by the Sea Peoples invasions. They were small in number and relatively weak militarily (save their Carthage outpost) and gradually were overrun as the major Mediterranean powers regained their footing and reestablished their traditional roles.
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Dec 28, 2014 04:08
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Arglebargle III posted:Also, Plato's description of the Atlantians' horsemanship doesn't match South America. Fits, since there were no horses in the Americas before 1492.
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Dec 28, 2014 04:09
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Preposterous. How did the Mormon prophets get around?
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Dec 28, 2014 04:16
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That all makes sense. So there never really was some Phoenician empire except for I guess Carthage, and they weren't really some big collection of important city states like Greece but just a small generic culture that got a little bit lucky at one point? Did they share anything with or were they culturally related/descended from any other people that we do have more from? Their alphabet survived though right? I think that's why, in my mind, I thought they were bigger and more important than they actually were. How did that happen if they were just a minor whatever place? Arglebargle III posted:This is funny: the Atlantis story closely parallels some Greek legends about conflict with the Persians and Phoenicians. This is evidence that the South American Atlantians allied with the Persians and may even have given them some tips on how to build their fortifications. I'm sorry though, what? South America? Atlanians' horsemanship? What three papers?
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Dec 28, 2014 04:19
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The Phoenicians were a small collection of important city-states, but unlike Greece they were in between the regional superpowers of the time in Mesopotamia and Egypt, so they had to deal with sieges and appeasing the local dominant powers and other such things. There certainly was no Phoenician Empire, cities like Tyre, Sidon, and Baalbek were too fiercely independent.
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Dec 28, 2014 04:24
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BrainDance posted:I got a stupidly vague question that will hopefully lead to some less vague questions. If you know about the Hanseatic League of Northern European cities during the last millenium, you might consider them a loose analogue to the Phoenicians. There was a shared culture of trade, and loose political connections between the cities and city-states,but they all ended up back in the nations they came from.
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Dec 28, 2014 04:37
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Grand Fromage posted:Fits, since there were no horses in the Americas before 1492. Plato was actually a time traveler from the 1500s, I don't see the problem.
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Dec 28, 2014 06:28
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Base Emitter posted:No, you're not trying to have a discussion, you're trying to evangelize. But don't let that stop you typing long hilarious screeds against the oppression of hidebound orthodoxy. You're pushing it. I provided a subject of discussion by asking a question regarding one of the theories about Atlantis. I provided the name of the author of that theory and links to his work and presented some of his evidence. Out of most of the posts I made regarding this, a few of them were simply spent debating the idea that often times, archeological finds are made based on a fictional story and that Plato's Timaeus and Critias dialogues may be no different. Arglebargle III posted:Also just a look at wikipedia will tell you the area around Lake Poopo has been inhabited for 2000 years, so trying to prove signs of habitation there is pretty fruitless. By that logic, we shouldn't have bothered to dig in Egypt or Rome, since it has been inhabited for just as long.
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Dec 28, 2014 06:29
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poo poo, guys, we're pushing it!
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Dec 28, 2014 06:32
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hailthefish posted:poo poo, guys, we're pushing it! I mean he's pushing it by saying that I'm trying to evengelize Jim Allen or the subject.
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Dec 28, 2014 06:34
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