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vyelkin posted:You can pretend this yourself, and the value in you getting to do those things is not greater than the value added by not allowing neo-Nazis to act out the Holocaust in a videogame. While I could imagine it myself, it would be nothing compared to the lovingly detailed modeling of a number creeping up by the Paradox team
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Dec 29, 2014 14:54
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vyelkin posted:You can pretend this yourself, and the value in you getting to do those things is not greater than the value added by not allowing neo-Nazis to act out the Holocaust in a videogame. Sounds fun!
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Dec 29, 2014 14:55
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Slime Bro Helpdesk posted:I can think of 2 beyond someone having some sick wish to re-do those events: This would be innaproprate to simulate because looking at people like stastics on a ledger is what caused the atrocities in the first place. "Execute more jews to increase national moral furer?". "Starve Kulaks to increase industrial output commrade?". You would be inviting people to become monsters for statistical bonuses because a video game can't simulate actual human tragdety just economic statistics.
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Dec 29, 2014 15:00
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Rutibex posted:" It's too late already. "Sure I'll convert this province to my culture to get rid of the 33% intolerance tax malus"
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Dec 29, 2014 15:09
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Yeah, in multiple ways Paradox games already allow you to do things that might otherwise be considered war crimes, it's just that you don't want to specifically say that you/the AI is currently committing the Holocaust or other high-profile morally ambiguous act that's identifiable by name because of the legal landmines at the very least.
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Dec 29, 2014 15:17
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GrossMurpel posted:It's too late already. Pressing "Attack Natives" because they're unhappy about you settling on their land is pretty bad.
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Dec 29, 2014 15:18
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vyelkin posted:Pressing "Attack Natives" because they're unhappy about you settling on their land is pretty bad. Though representing the possibly hundreds of thousands of people in your province with 6000 warriors is just a different can of worms.
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Dec 29, 2014 15:20
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Found this old screenshot from some let's play:
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Dec 29, 2014 15:35
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vyelkin posted:Pressing "Attack Natives" because they're unhappy about you settling on their land is pretty bad. I love these games but I was genuenly angry to see the Beothuk tribe represented as an "empty" provence with a nebulious "natives" statistic in EU4. They don't even get a fighting chance their only option is colonization and genocide 
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Dec 29, 2014 15:59
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GrossMurpel posted:It's too late already. To be fair, that is less "settle Primary Culturians everywhere and turn the native population into a persecuted minority in their own land" and more "uproot the local aristocracy and bureaucracy and replace them all with loyal Primary Culturian officials". There is no excuse for "Attack Natives" though.
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Dec 29, 2014 15:59
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Slime Bro Helpdesk posted:Podcat please post a Dev diary, or else we're doing another round of fantasy-design for Vicky 3. DO NOT BRING THIS ON YOURSELF. Hollow Earth DLC with dinosaurs. You can just cut me a check for that idea, Paradox.
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Dec 29, 2014 16:02
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vyelkin posted:If anything, there should be a "Holocaust yes or no?" event in the next HOI, and if you click yes it immediately force-quits your game, uninstalls it from your computer, and alerts the authorities. So you can only play the game if you are Holocaust denier? :iamafag:
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Dec 29, 2014 16:05
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Someone should just make a genocide mod that has every historical atrocity ever perpetrated by every single nation on earth. Playing EU4 with it would just be a long, historical lesson in comparative genocide. There would be no positive benefits from any of them it would just be there to hit home to the player how incredibly awful human beings can be to each other sometimes.
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Dec 29, 2014 16:06
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Mans posted:There's no Victorian Holocaust events in Victoria Trail of Tears  Isnt there an Indian wars event that kills of a chunk of the Native american population in the dakotas too?
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Dec 29, 2014 16:25
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DrSunshine posted:Someone should just make a genocide mod that has every historical atrocity ever perpetrated by every single nation on earth. Playing EU4 with it would just be a long, historical lesson in comparative genocide. There would be no positive benefits from any of them it would just be there to hit home to the player how incredibly awful human beings can be to each other sometimes. Dynamic Thirty Years War events that depopulate half of Europe if any war goes on too long!
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Dec 29, 2014 16:46
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On the one hand it seems kind of icky to have a WWII game (and, to be fair, this goes for like pretty much every WWII wargame) that sanitizes the war and just handwaves the Holocaust and other wartime atrocities away, like some kind of deranged ~*~Good Wehrmacht~*~ fever dream. On the other hand, you really, really don't want to provide a playing field for creepy internet neo-Nazis to reenact genocide. On the other other hand we all know who the Nazis were and what they did, so that narrative is already implicit in the game. Which is part of the reason I've had trouble getting into these games, I guess-- when the default advice to new players is to play as the loving Nazis I get a bit leery, since when I play a Paradox game the emergent narrative of what's "actually" happening is always pretty near the front of my mind. (I also realize this isn't the case for everyone, of course.) I'm not really sure what the solution is besides "don't make games about WWII", which isn't really a solution at all. To a certain extent every Paradox game lets you do various horrible things which in many cases echo historical genocides and atrocities, and the present day is still very much affected by the consequences of the slavery, imperialism and colonialism that happened in the EU4 and V2 eras, so it's probably not right to just point to WWII being more recent. Victoria 2 ends like three years before WWII starts, so it's not exactly ancient history. I love these games, and love playing them, and love the emergent narratives they create, but in the back of my mind some part of me wonders if it's inappropriate to use real people's history and pain as a fun historical playground sandbox. But I think what sets the HoI games apart is their specificity-- V2 lasts for a century, and EU4 lasts nearly 400 years. Things will diverge entirely from actual history pretty quickly, so even if things like the things that happened from 1444-1936 happen, it's not the same things-- and there's always the possibility of things turning out unrecognizably different. But HoI zeros in on just a few years, deals with a very specific conflict, and we already know exactly who all the players on the playing field were, and what they did, and what they would have done if the war had gone differently.
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Dec 29, 2014 18:01
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YF-23 posted:To be fair, that is less "settle Primary Culturians everywhere and turn the native population into a persecuted minority in their own land" and more "uproot the local aristocracy and bureaucracy and replace them all with loyal Primary Culturian officials".
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Dec 29, 2014 18:11
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Hearts of Iron is a wargame. There's about zero things including the holocaust would add to the game and neonazis are going to play it either way. You can also play nazi Germany without being a nazi yourself, that is a thing you can do, much like you are able to play the USSR without being a Stalinist apologist.
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Dec 29, 2014 18:17
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I just want to be better than Hitler.
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Dec 29, 2014 19:32
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I don't see why one genocide is allowed while another isn't.
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Dec 29, 2014 19:39
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YF-23 posted:Hearts of Iron is a wargame. There's about zero things including the holocaust would add to the game and neonazis are going to play it either way. You can also play nazi Germany without being a nazi yourself, that is a thing you can do, much like you are able to play the USSR without being a Stalinist apologist. Well, yes and no. I wouldn't make it a decision or event, but rather a passive depopulation/time effect that happens to occupied territory. Generalplan Ost and the Holocaust are intrinsically linked to the Nazis. If you're going to keep it at a purely wargaming level, then you may as well just make it an alternate history where Germany is run by a Prussian junta or something. Besides, its not like the games don't have plenty of other 'bad' decisions and population modifiers. Victoria 2 let's you potentially keep slavery through the entire game (or re-legalize it), and there's all the colony management decisions where you can gently caress over the non-primary pops that you rule.
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Dec 29, 2014 19:40
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:I don't see why one genocide is allowed while another isn't. Because it's more recent. Give it a century, and we'll be putting the Holocaust in games while shying away from whatever big thing happened around the 2050s or 2060s.
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Dec 29, 2014 19:44
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Don't forget all the "Heart of Darkness" events, especially the Congo-related events. 
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Dec 29, 2014 19:45
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:I don't see why one genocide is allowed while another isn't. Great username/post combo
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Dec 29, 2014 19:49
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Vernii posted:Great username/post combo You can thank Franco for that.
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Dec 29, 2014 19:50
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vyelkin posted:Dynamic Thirty Years War events that depopulate half of Europe if any war goes on too long! When people were talking about the whole base tax = POPs discussion a while back, I actually thought that you could try to simulate stuff like that with a random (but still probable) chance of a province losing 1 base tax/pop every time it gets the "looted" modifier. It'd be a neat way to simulate how regions that are exposed to war for extended periods of time tend to turn into ruined shitholes. On the other hand, it could also lead to exploits that would allow players to commit actual genocide, but its not like we didn't already have that to begin with.
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Dec 29, 2014 19:51
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VerdantSquire posted:When people were talking about the whole base tax = POPs discussion a while back, I actually thought that you could try to simulate stuff like that with a random (but still probable) chance of a province losing 1 base tax/pop every time it gets the "looted" modifier. It'd be a neat way to simulate how regions that are exposed to war for extended periods of time tend to turn into ruined shitholes. On the other hand, it could also lead to exploits that would allow players to commit actual genocide, but its not like we didn't already have that to begin with. Yea I crippled Russia POP-wise in my last Victoria 2 game as Germany by starting a war, advancing far enough to build a nice defensive line, and then just dug in. After their main armies were destroyed, they were just tossing reservist stacks into the teeth of dug-in forces with superior firepower, and it just ground away enough of their lower class POPs that Russia never really recovered.
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Dec 29, 2014 20:02
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:You can thank Franco for that. This lends a new meaning to the Spanish civil war 
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Dec 29, 2014 20:13
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:I don't see why one genocide is allowed while another isn't. Because one has direct impact on what the game is about (colonizing, military campaigns and their aftermath), while other would be added just as a reminder with little to no bearing on the subject of the game (military campaigns in 40s). That's why you can bomb Dresden for example - the damage to infrastructure has a direct effect on operations in the area, while managing concentration camps won't make your tanks ride faster. Moreover, the fact that these are peripheral to the focus makes their inclusion problematic in and of itself: having a simple event "Three Alls: +3% unrest in China" pop up and be done with it would be more offensive than simply trusting the players intelligence/knowledge.
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Dec 29, 2014 20:26
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I don't know what the big deal is with not representing these mechanics, I just roleplay all my genocides
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Dec 29, 2014 20:38
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TheMcD posted:Because it's more recent. Give it a century, and we'll be putting the Holocaust in games while shying away from whatever big thing happened around the 2050s or 2060s. Dude, don't even make coy references to the Vancouver Event.
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Dec 29, 2014 20:39
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Lustful Man Hugs posted:Dude, don't even make coy references to the Vancouver Event. Don't be silly, he's clearly talking about the Helvetica Scenario.
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Dec 29, 2014 20:57
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If you play a colonial power in V2 you'll see a lot of that event that has the choices "Intervene Immediately" and "Intervene...Eventually" where the former kills 5% of the pops in a colonial state and the latter kills a whopping 20% of people in that state. Also, there are the disease events where you can decide not to get involved and the death toll goes up threefold. Plenty of nasty stuff in V2.
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Dec 29, 2014 21:51
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I hope HoI4 will accurately measure the impact of forced population transfers on transportation capacity.
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Dec 29, 2014 23:45
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DrSunshine posted:Someone should just make a genocide mod that has every historical atrocity ever perpetrated by every single nation on earth. Playing EU4 with it would just be a long, historical lesson in comparative genocide. There would be no positive benefits from any of them it would just be there to hit home to the player how incredibly awful human beings can be to each other sometimes. A People's History of Paradox
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Dec 30, 2014 00:01
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war...crimes? only cowardice, comrades
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Dec 30, 2014 00:25
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You only have yourself to blame for this conversation, Podcat!!
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Dec 30, 2014 02:05
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I wont be happy unless HOI4 has a stat that tracks how evil i am in milliHitlers
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Dec 30, 2014 02:56
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Slime Bro Helpdesk posted:You only have yourself to blame for this conversation, Podcat!! I would have posted a large animated gif of someone violently smashing their face into their keyboard a page back now, but I think your forum has some kind of fascist rules against animated gif spam, so I didn't dare :/
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Dec 30, 2014 03:22
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post it anyway, the forums work on prison rules so the longer your rapsheet the more cred you have.
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Dec 30, 2014 04:21
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