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I just reached the end of book four and don't have time to peruse much of the thread (and I am trying to avoid spoilers), but I wanted to ask, to any one who's finished the whole series, do most of these plot thread loose ends get wrapped up into some satisfactory conclusion by the last book? I enjoy Erikson's world-building and imagery immensely, but at this stage there's still so much going on that seems largely incoherent (in comparison to most fantasy series anyway).
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Dec 21, 2014 15:07
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Yes. Well, most of them anyway, but you haven't seen half of the plot threads yet. If you're asking whether the series is a finished piece, the answer is yes. Things are very rarely just explained to the reader, though; you'll have to figure out most of the stuff on your own. Besides, chances are a lot of the incoherent stuff is foreshadowing. anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Dec 21, 2014 |
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Dec 21, 2014 15:48
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The next book (5, Midnight Tides) introduces an entirely new location and set of characters but things start to converge in the second half of the series. Book 5 is also a lot of people's favorite, so don't let all the new faces annoy you.
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Dec 21, 2014 19:34
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Dirtballer posted:I just reached the end of book four and don't have time to peruse much of the thread (and I am trying to avoid spoilers), but I wanted to ask, to any one who's finished the whole series, do most of these plot thread loose ends get wrapped up into some satisfactory conclusion by the last book? I enjoy Erikson's world-building and imagery immensely, but at this stage there's still so much going on that seems largely incoherent (in comparison to most fantasy series anyway). Well, come to think of it, almost all threads in HoC gets wrapped up in book 6-7, but during the process of these books a large number of new story threads appear. Also, book 4 is chronologically after book 5, so some events in book 2 and 4 you will understand better after book 5 if you are observant. Also, I am on my third reread of the series, currently on Toll the Hounds and I still discover new connections. Also, I enjoy Toll the Hounds a lot more this time around, mostly since I have gotten a better appreciation of Kruppe. Regarding Nimander and the Tiste, it seems like they progress a little too fast in power, considering how weak they were in HoC. Nimander have some comment saying they have to bring forth their real nature, which they have hidden. Especially since they are all Soletaken Dragons.
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Dec 21, 2014 21:48
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I think that's a big part of it, they openly deny their heritage - maybe out of loyalty to Andarist, who never went that way? Still, they're getting reasons to embrace it, if only not to put up with the assholes accompanying them anymore, and that's the real power progression, removing their inhibitions. Honestly, those guys are probably my favorite part of TtH, otherwise it's by far the worst book in the series.
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Dec 21, 2014 22:00
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Cardiac posted:Well, come to think of it, almost all threads in HoC gets wrapped up in book 6-7, but during the process of these books a large number of new story threads appear. Also, book 4 is chronologically after book 5, so some events in book 2 and 4 you will understand better after book 5 if you are observant. Man, I am on what is probably my fifth reread (though this time through audio books), and only this time around noticed that an entire plot thread that spans several Erikson and Esselmont books and culminates in freaking Assail with Cartheron Crust sort of reentering Imperial employ is first hinted at and introduced in DHG. Obviously Crust appears in that book, but I never caught the hints in his conversations with his first mate before.
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Dec 21, 2014 23:00
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Dirtballer posted:I just reached the end of book four and don't have time to peruse much of the thread (and I am trying to avoid spoilers), but I wanted to ask, to any one who's finished the whole series, do most of these plot thread loose ends get wrapped up into some satisfactory conclusion by the last book? I enjoy Erikson's world-building and imagery immensely, but at this stage there's still so much going on that seems largely incoherent (in comparison to most fantasy series anyway). I think pretty much everything from about book 1-7 gets wrapped up fairly neatly, but there's stuff towards the end that doesn't. Not that it really matters.
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Dec 21, 2014 23:48
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Holy poo poo. I'm still on Dust of Dreams and just got to the part where Onos T'oolan came back as a T'lan Imass. It's completely a "I should have seen that coming" moment, but it was still surprising. Also, am I the only one who went from liking the Barghast to hating them?
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Dec 22, 2014 17:34
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I'd say that's the intended purpose of their DoD sections.
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Dec 22, 2014 17:43
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anilEhilated posted:I'd say that's the intended purpose of their DoD sections. Certainly one of them, anyway. Just goes to show that just because someone is a nominal ally doesn't mean they aren't all crazy pants savage when you really get to know them. All those DoD/TCG sections also serve to underscore how tense the Malazan/Barghast stuff in MoI is.
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Dec 22, 2014 18:15
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Habibi posted:Certainly one of them, anyway. Just goes to show that just because someone is a nominal ally doesn't mean they aren't all crazy pants savage when you really get to know them. All those DoD/TCG sections also serve to underscore how tense the Malazan/Barghast stuff in MoI is. Dust of Dreams is making me realize why people re-read this whole series. That said, I've been at it a year (my reading time is limited), so maybe in another decade or so. Or, maybe after I'm done I'll just spend a couple hours on the wiki and it will all come together. Erickson certainly takes the reader for a ride.
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Dec 22, 2014 21:12
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Habibi posted:Certainly one of them, anyway. Just goes to show that just because someone is a nominal ally doesn't mean they aren't all crazy pants savage when you really get to know them. All those DoD/TCG sections also serve to underscore how tense the Malazan/Barghast stuff in MoI is. The Barghast in MoI is actually rather unpleasant when you think about it. The only reason they are united is due to Humbral Taurs genius, and upon his death it all starts to fall apart. Although the Gilk clan in Dust/Crippled is kinda awesome. Actually, a large part of the series is how various primitive tribes lose their way of living due to competition with more advanced tribes. Examples are the Wickans, Seti, Trell, Awl, the whole Seven cities, Rhivi, Thelomen Toblakai and Barghast, as well as the various tribes in Lether. Notable exceptions are Tiste Edur and Moranth. The Karsa series can't come fast enough, since I am sort of expecting an interesting take on the whole barbarian invasion thing. Karsa == the Djingis Khan of the Malazan universe?
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Dec 22, 2014 21:46
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I'm pretty sure that Karsa, within two paragraphs of meeting Barghast, will think they are a shower of arseholes and be Karsa at them.  Hood's balls, how I will witness...
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Dec 22, 2014 22:33
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Cardiac posted:Actually, a large part of the series is how various primitive tribes lose their way of living due to competition with more advanced tribes. Yeah one of several stated(by SE) themes with both Karsa and the Barghast storylines is deconstructing the Noble Savage myth, he specifically mentions tribal 'buffalo jumps'. One of the appeals of the series for me, besides the general nerd-fest as a fantasy reader, is the many nods at anthropology. And the Barghast stuff in DoD is really hard to read.
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Dec 23, 2014 00:01
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rejutka posted:I'm pretty sure that Karsa, within two paragraphs of meeting Barghast, will think they are a shower of arseholes and be Karsa at them. Are there any Barghast left at all by the end of the series
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Dec 23, 2014 01:48
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Loads. It's just, as a [group you can lump in together that occupied the middle bit of an entire continent] they got wiped out. There's still probably thirty per cent max still around. Also, the Gilk rock.  They are what Barghast want to be.Which is still not great but they rock.
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Dec 23, 2014 02:31
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Cardiac posted:The Barghast in MoI is actually rather unpleasant when you think about it. The only reason they are united is due to Humbral Taurs genius, and upon his death it all starts to fall apart. quote:Actually, a large part of the series is how various primitive tribes lose their way of living due to competition with more advanced tribes.
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Dec 23, 2014 03:55
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The entire series could be boiled down to "ethnic group borders second ethnic group, one group exerts pressure on the other causing bad things to happen." It's basically human history in fantasy form. Entertaining stuff.
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Dec 23, 2014 04:35
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Baudin posted:The entire series could be boiled down to "ethnic group borders second ethnic group, one group exerts pressure on the other causing bad things to happen." Yeah basically this, interspersed with some Greek mythology.
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Dec 23, 2014 05:28
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Zeitgueist posted:One of the appeals of the series for me, besides the general nerd-fest as a fantasy reader, is the many nods at anthropology. Well, his education is anthropology and archaeology, so that is kinda obvious. Also being an anthropologist I am guessing he wants to make a counter-point to how primitive people are usually treated in books ie noble savages, where in reality (with few exceptions) primitive cultures are violent to an absurd degree compared to civilized cultures. . Habibi posted:Right, but it's a quite a bit different feel from the overt cruelty and savagery you get in later books. I need to reread OST, but neither the Moranth nor the Edur were primitive cultures. Edur come from the same civilization as Liosan and Andii, while Moranth still remains a distinct civilization. The Malazan empire was perfectly happy forming an alliance with the Moranth, while they fought the Rhivi, the Mott and Barghast. I would argue that they are not uncivilized in the same way as the other tribes I mention. Although how the Edur have evolved in Reapers Gale upon encountering civilization is kinda interesting.
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Dec 23, 2014 16:27
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Cardiac posted:I need to reread OST, but neither the Moranth nor the Edur were primitive cultures. Edur come from the same civilization as Liosan and Andii, while Moranth still remains a distinct civilization. 'Primitive' is relative, and while the degree varies, the same concept of a less advanced society losing territory/way of living to a more advanced society is featured in both scenarios. e: and Moranth aren't distinct - they split off from the same sea-faring Barghast, and went in a different direction. quote:Also being an anthropologist I am guessing he wants to make a counter-point to how primitive people are usually treated in books ie noble savages, where in reality (with few exceptions) primitive cultures are violent to an absurd degree compared to civilized cultures. Habibi fucked around with this message at 17:13 on Dec 23, 2014 |
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Dec 23, 2014 17:08
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Did I miss the bit about the Seguleh being the army of Darujhistan? I remember the pickled Seguleh but thats it
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Dec 23, 2014 19:40
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That's Orb, Sceptre, Throne material.
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Dec 23, 2014 19:48
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Habibi posted:You need to reread MOI, too. The Edur are repeatedly noted as the most primitive and tribal of the Tiste people, while the seafaring Barghast precursors developed an advanced mundane metallic alloy that to the present day had not been rediscovered (likewise they crafted sea vessels that blew everyone who saw them in MoI away). And in the time the Moranth were a plains dwelling people whose alchemies were in the early stages and who hadn't yet tamed the quorls, the Seguleh were the army of the greatest and most developed city, as far as we are aware, on the continent of Genabackis. I was probably a little unclear in my last post. My examples in the previous post consists of tribes that lose their culture, cohesion and land to a more advanced culture through attrition, both cultural and physical, which is something that have happened numerous times in human history. Same can't be said for Moranth or Tiste Edur. Moranth remains a separate culture throughout the series, whereas the Edur [spoiler] conquers Lether and becomes corrupted by a bureaucracy they don't understand. Also, Moranth are distinctly different from Barghast, which is obvious from the series. They might have the same ancestors, but they have long since diverged. Barghast, Moranth, Fenn and Trell all descends from Toblakai, but there are obvious differences. As example, Mappo Runt and Karsa Orlong are visibly different in shape. As for Edur, we don't yet know how Tiste split in to the various tribe. In FoD, they are all still the same people and should be more or less on the same technology level. The Edur north of Lether are the survivors of Scabandaris fall, and have fallen to a more tribal civilization, but still retains some of their history. Habibi posted:I'm not so sure about this. Most of the violent tendencies among primitive cultures in his books are of the internecine variety, while it's the large, established empires that pursue violence on large, external scales, which seems a fair reflection of reality. eg: Lether, which is at least as violent as any of the primitive cultures it has swallowed up in its history despite its apparent level of civilization (depending I guess on how one defines that). The violence of primitive people is well documented. Even if a large empire can make wars that cause a lot of deaths, a large empire still has a rule of law, which by itself reduces violence within the empire. A more primitive society have no common rule of law, which means that blood feuds, tribal warfare and everyday violence is the main cause of death. To put it like this, large wars are low frequency events with a lot of deaths, while tribal feuding is high frequency events with few deaths.
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Dec 23, 2014 21:06
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Clark Nova posted:That's Orb, Sceptre, Throne material. That makes sense. The less than enthusiastic tone from lots of people itt about the ICE novels has put me off reading them
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Dec 24, 2014 00:51
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I revisited Return Of The Crimson Guard and Stonewielder recently, and both were actually much better than I remembered. Ghelel is the worst character written by either Malazan author, but the rest of RotCG is pretty good, and its major events have huge implications for the rest of the Book of the Fallen, so I would definitely recommend reading it before TtH. SW is more of a side story with less of a connection with the rest of the series, so I'd say it can be skipped if you really don't like ICE's writing. It probably is the best written of all his books, though.Habibi posted:Man, I am on what is probably my fifth reread (though this time through audio books), and only this time around noticed that an entire plot thread that spans several Erikson and Esselmont books and culminates in freaking Assail with Cartheron Crust sort of reentering Imperial employ is first hinted at and introduced in DHG. Obviously Crust appears in that book, but I never caught the hints in his conversations with his first mate before. The end of that arc in Assail is terrible, though. Crust raids the Imperial Arsenal back in RotCG, and those munitions are eventually used to... stop an avalanche? Waste of a good setup, just like the rest of Assail.
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Dec 24, 2014 04:01
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Juaguocio posted:The end of that arc in Assail is terrible, though. Crust raids the Imperial Arsenal back in RotCG, and those munitions are eventually used to... stop an avalanche? Waste of a good setup, just like the rest of Assail. Ugh, thanks for reminding me, jerk. Assail was such a shitshow. I think I'm gonna forget about it and finally crack open Forge of Darkness. It's been about a year since I wrapped up The Crippled God anything I definitely need to remember before diving in?
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Dec 24, 2014 07:11
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apophenium posted:Ugh, thanks for reminding me, jerk. Assail was such a shitshow. I think I'm gonna forget about it and finally crack open Forge of Darkness. It's been about a year since I wrapped up The Crippled God anything I definitely need to remember before diving in?
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Dec 24, 2014 08:42
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Should I just summarize all the interesting tidbits of information from the ICE books? It'd be pretty easy.
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Dec 24, 2014 13:10
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apophenium posted:I think I'm gonna forget about it and finally crack open Forge of Darkness. It's been about a year since I wrapped up The Crippled God anything I definitely need to remember before diving in? You will be a child again.
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Dec 24, 2014 13:16
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I am reading FoD currently and what astounds me is how many characters were in Malazan. I know the big names of course but it surprised me how many lesser characters had a minor role in the main series. In other words it is pretty fun looking up the names and remembering their parts.
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Dec 24, 2014 20:09
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:Should I just summarize all the interesting tidbits of information from the ICE books? It'd be pretty easy. I'd like it since I doubt I'll ever read them
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Dec 24, 2014 23:10
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Is this a coincidence, or is someone at Kathmandu a fan? http://www.kathmandu.com.au/malazan-jacket-v3-men-black.html
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Dec 25, 2014 09:25
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:Should I just summarize all the interesting tidbits of information from the ICE books? It'd be pretty easy. I'd definitely appreciate it as well, as I just can't bring myself to read a series that people say is tolerable at best.
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Dec 25, 2014 18:06
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Okay! My memory of the first three is pretty spotty, it's been years since I read them. Here goes anyway: Night of Knives: This is set after the first chapter of GotM but before the rest of GotM. The two main characters are Temper, a former member of Dassem's First Sword who is lying low, and Kiska, a Claw who left to become Tayschrenn's bodyguard. The main plot is this: It's set in Malaz City, there's some kind of special magical night coming up that only comes every hundred years or something. The Emperor and Dancer have been missing for years. Lasseen has stepped in to fill the power vacuum that they left behind when they went walkabout. They've been exploring Azath houses. When Magical Convergence Night Or Whatever happens, a bunch of magical poo poo happens, hounds of shadow start rampaging around the island and killing people, and most of the book is just Temper and Kiska (separately) surviving poo poo. Kellanved and Dancer reappear, Laseen happens to be on the island at this point, and they confront her. There's a fight, she throws them out of a window or something and they die very public deaths, and then they sneak into the Azath house once everybody thinks they're dead. Essentially they use her to fake their own deaths. Temper ends up as the Guardian of the Azath house, Kiska is a frustrating piece of poo poo and I don't care or remember what happened to her. The only part of this book that I remember being interesting is that Temper's POV chapters have some information about The First Sword and how they worked. They're all named after a section of a sword: Temper, Ferrule, Edge, Hilt, Point, Quillion. Kellanved sent them against enemy champions to raise morale on the battlefield, because they hosed poo poo up and they did it very publically, waving flags so they could be seen from anywhere on the battlefield. After Laseen took over, she used them as a lightning rod to attract champions away from important areas of the battlefield, and eventually she started trying to get them killed because she thought that the idea of one on one combat was outdated and absurd. Finally there was a battle that went badly, she sent claws to try and kill the survivors while they were wounded, and a few of them escaped and went incognito. Oh and this book also had an interesting tidbit about Shadow: Edgewalker used to be its king, or at least he tried and failed to take the throne. Most of the reason this book sucked was Kiska. She's so bad. They say she's a claw, but she is young and bad at fighting and naive and squeamish about killing people and doesn't know anything about anything. She's supposed to be Tayschrenn's bodyguard, but she doesn't understand how magic works and spends the whole book being dumbfounded by it. Her existence is absurd.
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Dec 28, 2014 02:06
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Actually, she is a kid who dreams to leave her Podunk backwater island and become those things. That is why she is impressionable and dumb iirc. Her 'Aunt' is some sort of mage who survived the mouse quarter purges and is hinted at being more. She is actually weaver of high house light which you learn in later books.
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Dec 28, 2014 02:14
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Kiska ruins everything she touches. NoK, OST, Tayschrenn...
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Dec 28, 2014 02:59
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To be fair ICE's Tayschrenn doesn't really need much ruining.
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Dec 28, 2014 08:39
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anilEhilated posted:To be fair ICE' ICE writing in a nutshell essentially.
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Dec 28, 2014 14:33
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Forge of Darkness is making my wildest dreams come true. I'm glad to be reading Erikson again.
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Dec 30, 2014 03:02
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