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Just like the real world
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Dec 18, 2014 16:44
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Benson Cunningham posted:If you have to flee a city when you break up with someone, it turns out you did not have the power in the relationship. At best she is romanticizing what she is- an escort. I really don't see her as a very deep character and I think her motives,, of which there aren't many, are uninteresting. She's a peasant girl fleecing rich folk for their money. She's a con artist. Sure you could say she lacks the power in the relationship if it were a real relationship but it isn't. She has all the power she needs as she bleeds them for money and when they finally get wise to it she skips town and leaves him to his shame.
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Dec 18, 2014 17:38
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M_Gargantua posted:She's a peasant girl fleecing rich folk for their money. She's a con artist. Sure you could say she lacks the power in the relationship if it were a real relationship but it isn't. She has all the power she needs as she bleeds them for money and when they finally get wise to it she skips town and leaves him to his shame. Is that before or after they gently caress her?
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Dec 18, 2014 18:24
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I've read both books more than once and I have to admit I initially assumed Denna was sleeping with all the guys she "dated". It took reading some internet discussion and reviews to see that she was a con-artist. I think my misconception came from the lack of "proper courting etiquette" that's usually bandied about in medieval-ish fantasy. If women aren't portrayed as chaste, shrinking violets, who will only be seen with a gentleman caller in the company of a proper chaperon, then I automatically apply my modern dating standards to the situation which is basically "3 or more dates equals sex".
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Dec 19, 2014 05:36
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organism posted:I've read both books more than once and I have to admit I initially assumed Denna was sleeping with all the guys she "dated". It took reading some internet discussion and reviews to see that she was a con-artist. I actually didn't think she slept with her suitors until her saves the wannabe prostitute and discusses her options, one being very, very similar to what Denna herself does, with the statement that even the best horse is 'going to be ridden.'
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Dec 19, 2014 05:41
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I always thought it was that she didn't want to sleep with them and tried to avoid it, but sometimes circumstances forced her hand. I read her "every horse is going to be ridden" comment as a sort of 'cost of playing the game' sort of thing; sometimes a con goes south and you've got to follow through.
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Dec 19, 2014 06:17
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Khizan posted:I always thought it was that she didn't want to sleep with them and tried to avoid it, but sometimes circumstances forced her hand. I read her "every horse is going to be ridden" comment as a sort of 'cost of playing the game' sort of thing; sometimes a con goes south and you've got to follow through. Yeah, I feel like it would be very naive to think she hasn't slept with some of her suitors. Additionally, we know for a fact her most recent suitor has physically abused her. She has some cognitive dissonance between her perception and reality which is exacerbated by the novel's POV Mary Sue character, Kvothe. It just is not interesting to read about.
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Dec 19, 2014 08:23
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Dienes posted:I actually didn't think she slept with her suitors until her saves the wannabe prostitute and discusses her options, one being very, very similar to what Denna herself does, with the statement that even the best horse is 'going to be ridden.' I think she notes in that conversation that avoiding being ridden comes at a high cost (pissed of suitors, constantly moving) and that it would be easier/safer to just be a regular working girl. So Denna's pretty firm about not sleeping with her suitors because if that wasn't a line she never wanted to cross she'd, well, just be a prostitute. Like that's the point of the story, Denna's path means no sex, but that comes at a huge cost and considerable risk. For instance, taking on a sponsor who beats her but doesn't make sexual advances, poo poo like that. Which is why it's really funny when Kvothe gets back from his sex goddessing thing and is like "Yeah, I'm promiscuous too, just like you are, let's do it now." Because he, being an idiot, assumed she was sleeping with these dudes and wasn't sleeping with him because he wasn't Alpha enough. Where as she's been putting her life and comfort at considerable risk for refusing to cross that line so she flips out and gets pissed at him. She doesn't object to the idea of sleeping with Kvothe per say, but he's basically calling her a whore (which she's gone very much out of her way not to be) and then asking to be another customer. Again, Kvothe loves her but he doesn't understand her at all. Even though the reader (and, by way of the framing device, presumably Old Kvothe because he's picking out moments that his younger self totally failed to understand) knows that he had plenty of chances to learn about her. Again, this is why I like the sex goddess bit, because it reads as wish fulfillment and all, but push comes to shove and it only fucks up Kvothe's life even more. Well, no, the experience was neutral, Kvothe mixing it with his own blend of social unawareness and mulish arrogance cocked it up.
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Dec 19, 2014 17:54
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the JJ posted:
Yes Kvothe's life is hosed up because his months (years?) spent having sex with a literal fairy goddess might interfere with his ability to have a relationship with Denna. He definitely got the short end of that stick. I also think there is limited evidence from which to infer she isn't sleeping with some/many of her suitors. In all likelihood, she is just trying to shelter Kvothe from the reality of her situation because he is the last vestiges of her childhood. Again, I'm not really passing judgment on her, I just don't find her story interesting or novel in any way.
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Dec 19, 2014 18:04
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Kvothe and Denna are far and away the least interesting characters in the books. A tree that had one paragraph is more interesting than two characters that have had several hundreds of pages dedicated to them. Hell, even Kote is more interesting than Kvothe. \/\/agreed\/\/ Solice Kirsk fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Dec 19, 2014 |
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Dec 19, 2014 18:44
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Solice Kirsk posted:Kvothe and Denna are far and away the least interesting characters in the books. A tree that had one paragraph is more interesting than two characters that have had several hundreds of pages dedicated to them. Hell, even Kote is more interesting than Kvothe. Bast's novella was my favorite thing Pat's written.
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Dec 19, 2014 19:23
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Dienes posted:Bast's novella was my favorite thing Pat's written. Man I need to read this thing.
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Dec 19, 2014 20:56
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Benson Cunningham posted:Yes Kvothe's life is hosed up because his months (years?) spent having sex with a literal fairy goddess might interfere with his ability to have a relationship with Denna. That's the point that Old Kvothe is making about his youthful adventures though. It doesn't matter how cool/luck he is if he keeps loving up the basic poo poo. That's half the point of most of these stories. quote:I also think there is limited evidence from which to infer she isn't sleeping with some/many of her suitors. In all likelihood, she is just trying to shelter Kvothe from the reality of her situation because he is the last vestiges of her childhood. Again, I'm not really passing judgment on her, I just don't find her story interesting or novel in any way. Alright, we disagree here but I ain't bothering to find quotes. My argument, if she were sleeping with them then she'd live in a brothel or just find a rich one and settle in for the long haul. The whole point of her being transitory and on the move is her refusal to sleep with them necessitates it. Otherwise there's no point (and that's the point of her conversation with the young girl.)
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Dec 20, 2014 04:45
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I took her conversation with the young girl to be about maintaining all the control in the grist and determining for yourself who to sleep with and for much more money in the long run than just being a straight up prostitute.
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Dec 20, 2014 17:35
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Anyone get the feeling that the legend of Kvothe is going to turn out to be almost wholly fabricated/blown out of portion?
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Dec 21, 2014 20:33
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WastedJoker posted:Anyone get the feeling that the legend of Kvothe is going to turn out to be almost wholly fabricated/blown out of portion? That's what so many of the stories have already been about. "Learned a language in a day? It was actually 3 days, I knew just enough words to carry on one conversation, and I am by no means fluent" "Kvothe the bloodless? I took a drug to constrict my blood vessels" "Walked through fire unharmed? Yeah, by way of a shitload of water and being smart, not because of being innately supernatural"
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Dec 21, 2014 21:02
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Uh-huh and where do we think it ends up in present day? I got the feeling there was unfinished business. Bee a while since I read this.
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Dec 21, 2014 21:14
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WastedJoker posted:Uh-huh and where do we think it ends up in present day? I got the feeling there was unfinished business. Still don't know why he's called a poet killer, or king killer.
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Dec 22, 2014 00:09
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Odette posted:Still don't know why he's called a poet killer, or king killer. I mean, I suspect that his nemesis from school is going to end up being King some way or another and Kvothe will end up killing him because of something that involves Denna blah blah. Or maybe that dude's father becomes King and something similar happens Either way if that doesn't happen I'll be pretty massively surprised
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Dec 22, 2014 01:28
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Odette posted:Still don't know why he's called a poet killer, or king killer. I have a feeling both of these refer to killing the same guy. A Poet-King, if you will.
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Dec 22, 2014 02:49
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Dienes posted:I have a feeling both of these refer to killing the same guy. A Poet-King, if you will. It's gonna be Sim. He writes poetry and is royalty. It would just be too convenient for it to be Ambrose.
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Dec 22, 2014 05:12
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I had wondered if Kingkiller was going to tie in with avenging his family's death but I'm starting to think that Rothfuss will catch us up to present day, Bast will kick Kvothe out of his emo status and then we pick up the tale of Kvothe's final journey of justice.
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Dec 22, 2014 14:35
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WastedJoker posted:I had wondered if Kingkiller was going to tie in with avenging his family's death but I'm starting to think that Rothfuss will catch us up to present day, Bast will kick Kvothe out of his emo status and then we pick up the tale of Kvothe's final journey of justice. Yeah? And when is he going to finish *that* book/series?
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Dec 22, 2014 20:03
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Flattened Spoon posted:Yeah? And when is he going to finish *that* book/series? Sometime after GRRM finishes GoT.
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Dec 22, 2014 20:07
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WastedJoker posted:I had wondered if Kingkiller was going to tie in with avenging his family's death but I'm starting to think that Rothfuss will catch us up to present day, Bast will kick Kvothe out of his emo status and then we pick up the tale of Kvothe's final journey of justice. I'd be fine with that so long as he finishes it. Then I could tell people to skip the first three books and just read the last three or whatever. Or just give them a summary like, "Kvothe's parents die, then he's homeless and gets really good at the lute, then he meets a girl and joins wizard school, then he fights bandits and gets a king married, and then he gets thrown out of wizard school and gets all his friends and the girl killed and he killed a king or something. Now the world is messed up. Enjoy the next few books!"
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Dec 26, 2014 19:17
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I'm almost done with the wise man's fear after starting from the beginning (name of the wind) a few days ago. Been burning through them like crazy, I read them quite awhile back but only once (well I read the name of the wind a couple times) and they were spaced apart a lot. I think I'm enjoying it more this time but at the same time I don't remember hating Kvothe's / Rothfuss' description of women as much. This has probably been said 3 thousand times in this thread but it's good to vent. I didn't even realize Auri got a book, just saw it browsing Powell's the other day. Gonna probably head back down there in the near future and get that because Auri's definitely the best done female character in the series, in my opinion. Eerkik fucked around with this message at 01:26 on Jan 3, 2015 |
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Jan 3, 2015 01:23
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Rurutia posted:I think it goes beyond just being in Auri's mind. A book that gives such an intimate understanding and view of mental illness is very valuable, in my opinion. I wish I'd always known that mental illness was twee and fey and all about grown women frolicking with exultant clouds. Thanks Rothfuss! Gonna go hit myself in the head with a brick now. A proud brick~
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Jan 3, 2015 10:51
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It's 2 months until the 4 year anniversary of Wise Man's Fear being released. Where's the next book? Or is Rothfuss just attempting to copy GRRM's style of "gently caress you, it's my book and football is on, too busy to write"
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Jan 3, 2015 14:09
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A few months ago I'd quit reading the Wise Man's Fear because I couldn't stand the fairy sex chapters. Now I'm reading it again because I ran out of other audiobooks on my phone and I've made it to the karate ninja chapters. These are some of the worst fight scenes I've ever read. "She attacked with Flowing Water, which I blocked with Fist of Iron. I moved in with Yawning Lion into Thousand Butterflies, but she countered with Hand of Knives and I was thrown back six feet through the air" - is this for real? I couldn't possibly be more disengaged with this kind of writing, especially when it seems to be the exact same approach he takes to writing sex scenes. It's especially jarring coming off the back of having just finished The First Law, which is spectacular at this exact thing.
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Jan 3, 2015 14:23
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Boing posted:A few months ago I'd quit reading the Wise Man's Fear because I couldn't stand the fairy sex chapters. Now I'm reading it again because I ran out of other audiobooks on my phone and I've made it to the karate ninja chapters. Everyone slobbers over Rothfuss for his prose, and while he can do some pretty great stuff with words, from time to time it falls into "holy poo poo his editor should've caught this and told him to fix it" especially in Wise Man's Fear. After his fame skyrocketed from The Name of the Wind it seems like everyone else involved with his books just acts as yes-men and doesn't dare criticize or contradict him. The response in this thread from the Auri book is extremely telling, because at best its a lot of creative and vivid imagery, but to most people it's just a bunch of twee bullshit from his favorite character being a special snowflake and doing oddball things. I read WMF in one night, staying up the entire time, and my eyes basically glazed over the fairy sex stuff and some of the other painful parts, especially the sex-ninja village, and while there were some great parts in the book, the lows were absolute garbage. Rothfuss needed an editor to say to his face "cut out the weird sex bullshit, it reaks of wish-fulfillment fantasy".
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Jan 3, 2015 14:45
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Strategic Tea posted:I wish I'd always known that mental illness was twee and fey and all about grown women frolicking with exultant clouds. Thanks Rothfuss! I like how you cropped out the part where I was referencing another reader who has experienced mental illness citing the book as being very accurate in reflecting their own state of mind (at the time?). I'm pretty sure they weren't referring to the 'twee and fey' part of it either. Thanks for digging up my post with such a great insightful reply.
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Jan 3, 2015 14:46
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Boing posted:A few months ago I'd quit reading the Wise Man's Fear because I couldn't stand the fairy sex chapters. Now I'm reading it again because I ran out of other audiobooks on my phone and I've made it to the karate ninja chapters. Yeah, sex ninjas were a really loving low point that could have been okay but weren't. I'll defend the fairy goddess bit because of the context but yeah, gently caress the ninja part.
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Jan 4, 2015 04:25
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the JJ posted:Yeah, sex ninjas were a really loving low point that could have been okay but weren't. I'll defend the fairy goddess bit because of the context but yeah, gently caress the ninja part. All that rage, clearly you need to give it to a female who uses it to make a child and men aren't involved beyond that what sperm no don't be silly, lol man mommy.  Words can't properly describe how stupid that entire part was.
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Jan 4, 2015 05:57
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I'm a terrible human being. I enjoyed both novels. Including the bad parts.
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Jan 4, 2015 07:47
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the JJ posted:Yeah, sex ninjas were a really loving low point that could have been okay but weren't. I'll defend the fairy goddess bit because of the context but yeah, gently caress the ninja part. It's pretty hilarious that Rothfuss introduced a culture that hadn't made the connection between sex and men impregnating women, I guess as an excuse to make it a extremely matriarchal society, but I'm pretty sure every group of humanity figured out the sex=babies connection around the same time as stone tools.
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Jan 4, 2015 09:57
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Well, lets be fair, that society as a whole was garbage. Its main export are mercenaries and they get by from leeching off of other societies. If you want to topple them you just kill the story tellers and destroy the sword records. The whole thing was just backwards.
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Jan 4, 2015 17:18
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I don't think it's fair to say the society as a whole was garbage. It's more that they have both good and bad qualities, just like you'd expect from any society. I like the Adem for that reason. They could have easily been an enlightened super culture. They're very egalitarian, in terms of both gender and money. They have superior hygiene. They lack any cultural sense of shame over sex. But even though we only really learn about the Adem from how the Adem explain their own culture to Kvothe, it's clear as day that they have more than their fair share of basic human dickishness. They're xenophobic as all hell. They have ridiculous hang ups over music. Their entire country runs on murder. They have elaborate justifications for their use of violence, but come on. When Kvothe points out that a sword is a tool for killing, I don't have much sympathy for his teacher's arguments against that. Especially since she makes them by beating the poo poo out of him. As for man-mothers, come on. Lots of human societies have had all kinds of weird erroneous beliefs about reproduction. Even now, there are still plenty of people in rich, educated countries that believe virgins can't get pregnant the first time they have sex, or that there are certain days of the month where it's impossible to get pregnant. It's not unreasonable for the Adem to be wrong on this. And it's very possible they're not wrong. Adem women reproducing asexually would be one of the least fantastical things in the books.
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Jan 4, 2015 20:31
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pentyne posted:It's pretty hilarious that Rothfuss introduced a culture that hadn't made the connection between sex and men impregnating women, I guess as an excuse to make it a extremely matriarchal society, but I'm pretty sure every group of humanity figured out the sex=babies connection around the same time as stone tools. I figure next book is gonna have one of the Adem show up at the tavern with a baby with red hair. Drama!
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Jan 4, 2015 21:45
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Effigy posted:I figure next book is gonna have one of the Adem show up at the tavern with a baby with red hair. Drama! "Kvothe, you are NOT the father!" *Adem woman hand gestures wildly
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Jan 4, 2015 22:01
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pentyne posted:It's pretty hilarious that Rothfuss introduced a culture that hadn't made the connection between sex and men impregnating women, I guess as an excuse to make it a extremely matriarchal society, but I'm pretty sure every group of humanity figured out the sex=babies connection around the same time as stone tools. There's a few cultures that haven't put it together. I know at least one is in the South Pacific. A few anthropologists have made a go of looking at it but they're not all useful, it's easy in studies like that to attribute cultural quirk x, y, z to cultural quirk q just because q is sensationalist. Anyway, knowledge tends to spread, esp. if it's provable and testable, so the Adem have no excuse. But that's, like tip of the iceberg as far as the dumb of that section.
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Jan 4, 2015 22:22
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