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Collateral Damage posted:It would be interesting to know how much it weighs. I'd guess less than 150 pounds.
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Oct 25, 2014 05:55
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I bought a 1974 Fiat X1/9 that someone jammed in old forklift parts to convert it to electric power, should I post about it here?
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Dec 20, 2014 00:04
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DJ Commie posted:I bought a 1974 Fiat X1/9 that someone jammed in old forklift parts to convert it to electric power, should I post about it here?
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Dec 20, 2014 00:08
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InitialDave posted:"You know what an Italian car needs? More electrics!" Documentation? Who needs that! Its not the worst conversion I could imagine, but it certainly isn't the best it could be, even when it was done in the 80s.
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Dec 20, 2014 00:10
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DJ Commie posted:I bought a 1974 Fiat X1/9 that someone jammed in old forklift parts to convert it to electric power, should I post about it here? The answer is always  .It's doubly so when you're talking about a half-assed conversion of an Italian car. Only amazing things can happen.
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Dec 20, 2014 01:42
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And by amazing we mean an electrical fire.
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Dec 20, 2014 01:58
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Collateral Damage posted:And by amazing we mean an electrical fire. I said Italian car, didn't I?
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Dec 20, 2014 05:44
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DJ Commie posted:I bought a 1974 Fiat X1/9 that someone jammed in old forklift parts to convert it to electric power, should I post about it here? Some coworkers in Wisconsin started a project like this, wonder what happened with that thing. Yes you should post.
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Dec 20, 2014 18:42
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Ripoff posted:I'm also currently in Germany and the norm between my social circle is to rent automobiles whenever you make a longer trip, principally to save wear and tear on your own car. Since I posted I ended up moving back to Canada, and did get talked into taking a model S out for a test drive. It's awesome, and I could definitely make it work for my family. The sales person even solved my long road trip problem, since I forgot I could take a ferry up to that region, and that would put it into driving range. I do want an electric car but right now I'm going to be a little more conservative with my big ticket purchases, which is why I ended up with a diesel wagon.
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Dec 21, 2014 19:19
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Maybe I'm hanging out with a lot of people that don't have much faith in their cars, but when you consider the low cost of a car rental for a once-a-year trip it's honestly not such a big deal. I don't know your commute, but I'd be willing to guess your fuel savings would offset the cost of the rental regardless and you'd still come out ahead. Personally, I don't see renting as a problem, as you're on the bleeding edge of a new technology and there's a logical excuse as to why there aren't supercharging stations up there. If it was 2075, the world has converted to 95% electric and you paid six figures (probably 7 at that time) for a car that can't make the trip, sure. I can see the shame factor. However, it's still a new technology, and goddamnit, you're driving an electric car. How cool is that?
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Interesting news from Elon Musk:quote:Roadster upgrade will enable non-stop travel from LA to SF -- almost 400 mile range. Details tmrw. Merry Christmas! https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/548257415536594944
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Dec 26, 2014 00:34
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It will be pre-programmed with the route. You just get in the car and hit the button. Six to ten hours later you are there.
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Dec 26, 2014 01:04
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bull3964 posted:Regardless, you are going to have to get over the feelings. We're 3-5 years out from widespread semi-autonomous vehicles. Humans are being phased out of the equation. Within a 20 years, the only time you'll be taking control is on side roads or weather so bad as to disable the sensors. It looks like Tesla went ahead and released the autopilot system ahead of schedule, making it a standard feature of every Model S produced thereafter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO0vdNNzwxk There's been no mention of them making drivers keep their hands on the wheel like Mercedes and Acura.
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Dec 26, 2014 02:38
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Here are the details. I thought they were releasing an "upgrade" in the traditional sense - i.e. a new car which you can "upgrade to" if you sell your own Roadster. But it's actually a paid-for upgrade, like an expansion pack to a computer game.quote:The Roadster 3.0 package applies what we've learned in Model S to Roadster. No new Model S battery pack or major range upgrade is expected in the near term. http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/roadster-30 Ola fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Dec 27, 2014 |
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Dec 27, 2014 17:22
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Ola posted:Here are the details. I thought they were releasing an "upgrade" in the traditional sense - i.e. a new car which you can "upgrade to" if you sell you own Roadster. But it's actually a paid-for upgrade, like an expansion pack to a computer game. That's really cool. I love how Tesla is changing the entire (sorry for the buzzword) paradigm of car ownership. An upgrade package is such a familiar and normal thing, when you think that it has never applied to cars it just seems so strange.
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Dec 27, 2014 17:49
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Yeah, I'm really not tempted unless it included supercharging support. All the upgrade would give me is the ability for slightly longer day trips, but if you want to take a multi-day trip you're still stuck with terrible charging infrastructure and looong charge times.
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Dec 27, 2014 18:07
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Are the falling gas prices affecting EV sales at all? Quite a few plug-in hybrids seem to be significantly discounted.
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Dec 31, 2014 20:47
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It probably takes a little while for that effect to settle. In Norway, where EV conditions are ideal, at least financially, it's been an good year. Some stats from 2014: 142 151 new cars sold all in all 18 094 (12.7% market share) zero emission vehicles 4 970 VWs - eGolf and eUp 4 857 Nissans - mostly Leafs (Leaves?), not sure if the other platform offshoots (leaf joke there) are on sale yet 4041 Teslas, I assume all Model S 4 hydrogen cars Between 2.8% and 3.5% market share for the major players, the rest is Zoes, i-MIEVs etc. Not bad.
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Jan 2, 2015 21:04
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Linedance posted:That's really cool. I love how Tesla is changing the entire (sorry for the buzzword) paradigm of car ownership. An upgrade package is such a familiar and normal thing, when you think that it has never applied to cars it just seems so strange. That's because most people need their cars on a regular, usually daily basis, whereas the Tesla Roadster is usually a toy which you won't miss if you have to send it out for a few weeks / months. Aftermarket tuners and dealer-installed upgrade kits have been a thing for a long time for that sort of car too.
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Jan 2, 2015 23:05
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I think we're also reaching a stage where automakers are trying new things to induce brand loyalty. I'm curious to see if Nissan or anybody else does something similar when better battery chemistries enter production. Will they put a bigger (more KWh) battery packs in for replacements, or will they drop the cell count and add ballast (keeping the car's mass the same) to keep costs down? Will a choice be offered? If a choice or substantially better pack were offered, you can bet I would be a lot more loyal (if nobody else did it). I'd much rather have a car that gets better as it ages!
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Jan 3, 2015 03:58
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Advent Horizon posted:I think we're also reaching a stage where automakers are trying new things to induce brand loyalty. I'm curious to see if Nissan or anybody else does something similar when better battery chemistries enter production. Will they put a bigger (more KWh) battery packs in for replacements, or will they drop the cell count and add ballast (keeping the car's mass the same) to keep costs down? Will a choice be offered? For replacing the original battery, I imagine they'd just keep manufacturing the original battery even if better ones are available; they don't install more powerful/economical variants of engines for warranty replacements, it's a similar thing. Plus with the additional complexity of monitoring and controlling charge levels, it's probably a bit more complicated than just updating the chemistry, depending on the car it could range from flashing the PCM to completely changing it, so it may not even be feasible. If it is, though, I can easily see them offering it as an optional for-profit, dealer-installed upgrade a la Ford Racing parts on the Mustangs. Most of that effort will go into increasing the range of the new cars they'd much rather you buy, rather than improving already-sold units.
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Jan 3, 2015 10:36
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Mange Mite posted:That's because most people need their cars on a regular, usually daily basis, whereas the Tesla Roadster is usually a toy which you won't miss if you have to send it out for a few weeks / months. Aftermarket tuners and dealer-installed upgrade kits have been a thing for a long time for that sort of car too. Yeah but (aftermarket aside, since that's generally going to be 3rd party) that's point-of-sale stuff. The equivalent would be Ford coming out and saying "hey 2009 mustang owners, we've got this new ecoboost engine that is better in every way than what came with your car, if you like you can bring it in and we'll fit it for a few thousand bucks". And then it's up to the owner, who might decide that they're happy with what they've got, or might use the opportunity to get a fresh new engine instead of a whole new car. Ford would much rather you trade in your old mustang and finance a whole brand new one.
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Jan 3, 2015 16:29
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Linedance posted:Yeah but (aftermarket aside, since that's generally going to be 3rd party) that's point-of-sale stuff. The equivalent would be Ford coming out and saying "hey 2009 mustang owners, we've got this new ecoboost engine that is better in every way than what came with your car, if you like you can bring it in and we'll fit it for a few thousand bucks". And then it's up to the owner, who might decide that they're happy with what they've got, or might use the opportunity to get a fresh new engine instead of a whole new car. Ford would much rather you trade in your old mustang and finance a whole brand new one. No, there's stuff like TRD, Ford Racing, or Mopar upgrade kits that aren't just point of sale and still have warranties. Anything more complicated usually isn't done because the labor costs are huge and you'll probably not have your car for a while, same as aftermarket tuners who do the same thing. With the really bad tuners it's pretty mucha roll of the dice since they might take months or more.
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Jan 3, 2015 18:58
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One massive difference - batteries won't require any sort of emissions recertification. They also have a relatively simple interface with the vehicle. Aside from whatever bolts physically mount it, it just has some high voltage / high current power connectors, and some low voltage data connectors. If they integrate the control logic with the battery itself, you could easily update it whenever you update the battery as well (if an update is even needed). Also, range extension is a super hot issue for an EV owner. Swapping out a 225hp 4.6L for a 400hp 5.0L might be a really nice upgrade for a Mustang performance wise, but when driven at low throttle the car is still going to be pretty much the same. Bumping the real world range on a Leaf from 70 miles to 100 miles is a huge improvement.
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Jan 4, 2015 01:38
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More to the point, most electric cars are designed to allow fast battery swaps anyway. So in labour terms it really is more like a simple bolt-on modification than an engine swap.
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Jan 4, 2015 01:52
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The downside is that the battery (if not subsidized) probably makes up at least 1/3 to 1/2 of the cost of an electric car, if not more. Electric cars are different in part because of the greatly simplified mechanics + extremely high cost of batteries. Probably they'll let you trade in your old one too (at similar terms to any other sort of dealer trade-in). Also it's not necessarily simple to swap batteries, there may be various plumbing or other connections for cooling and the like which can complicate things, and due to their weight you'll often see batteries spread out throughout a significant portion of the car's inner structure. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 02:05 on Jan 4, 2015 |
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Jan 4, 2015 02:01
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Yeah, a battery swap is not going to be the sort of thing a DIY could really handle, but at a dealership with trained techs I would expect it to be much easier than, say, an engine and transmission swap. Really what it will come down to is whether or not a given manufacturer is willing to put out better batteries for old EVs. If they can find a way to make money on it (since it is such a big percentage of the cost of a car) it might make sense after all. Think of it this way. If Nissan sells you a Leaf today, and every three to five years they sell you a massively upgraded battery at 1/3 of the cost of the Leaf, then they've come out way ahead of the scenario where you buy a Leaf today, but buy a Focus Electric in five years because the range on your old Leaf battery sucks now.
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Jan 4, 2015 06:33
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Nissan has already stated theyFucknag posted:For replacing the original battery, I imagine they'd just keep manufacturing the original battery even if better ones are available; they don't install more powerful/economical variants of engines for warranty replacements, it's a similar thing. Plus with the additional complexity of monitoring and controlling charge levels, it's probably a bit more complicated than just updating the chemistry, depending on the car it could range from flashing the PCM to completely changing it, so it may not even be feasible. Nissan has already stated that they have zero plans to keep old battery chemistries in production. They will assemble all new packs using whatever chemistry is currently in production. My question was more about whether they would install a more powerful battery into the same space or an original-manufacture-KWh pack into a smaller space (which may require more engineering work for various packaging and weight distribution reasons).
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Jan 4, 2015 09:40
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I'd wager that they go higher total capacity. Going with lower cell counts or smaller cells just to keep the whole pack capacity the same could reduce the amount of current available for peak loads. The other alternative is they use newer cells with more total capacity, but start artificially limiting the max and min charge states to give the same effective range. It wouldn't improve the day to day, but it would increase the effective lifespan of the pack considerably. It's what the Volt does, and is part of why most of them have seen little to no reduction in usable EV range even after a few years.
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Jan 4, 2015 16:07
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IOwnCalculus posted:The other alternative is they use newer cells with more total capacity, but start artificially limiting the max and min charge states to give the same effective range. It wouldn't improve the day to day, but it would increase the effective lifespan of the pack considerably. It's what the Volt does, and is part of why most of them have seen little to no reduction in usable EV range even after a few years.
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Jan 5, 2015 04:05
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angryrobots posted:The new EV's don't already do this? Volt is the only one? I'm pretty sure all the modern EVs and hybrids. Consumer Reports tested a 200,000 mile, nine-year-old Prius with its original battery and found that the battery wear was mostly insignificant: http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2011/02/the-200-000-mile-question-how-does-the-toyota-prius-hold-up/index.htm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9CsEEk30q4
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Jan 5, 2015 07:10
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angryrobots posted:The new EV's don't already do this? Volt is the only one? Not nearly to the extent of the Volt, no. The Leaf uses drat near all of its possible electric capacity out of the gate, and there's a very noticeable reduction in range in as short as one to two years in hot climates. Cocoa Crispies posted:I'm pretty sure all the modern EVs and hybrids. Consumer Reports tested a 200,000 mile, nine-year-old Prius with its original battery and found that the battery wear was mostly insignificant Like the Volt, it's a hybrid. Thus, it does not depend on the HV battery for all of its range, so it would make sense that Toyota would program it very conservatively. The benefit of a Prius is that it has battery available to assist, but it never needs to use much energy from the battery at any one point in time. Thus, the benefit of fully charging (then discharging) the battery would be minimal - look at how little the plug-in Prius gains over the regular one.
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Jan 5, 2015 17:07
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Advent Horizon posted:Nissan has already stated they I'm sure they'll manage it but this sounds like a nightmare from a testing standpoint once you start having mulitple versions/model years since you'd have to make sure there's no, say, weird cooling or even driving dynamics/crash safety issues with every iteration of battery pack / firmware. You start running into the PC scenario where the number of different hardware variations increases exponentially and you feel obligated to maintain backwards compatibility and support for older stuff.
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Jan 5, 2015 17:11
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IOwnCalculus posted:Not nearly to the extent of the Volt, no. The Leaf uses drat near all of its possible electric capacity out of the gate, and there's a very noticeable reduction in range in as short as one to two years in hot climates.
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Jan 5, 2015 18:55
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angryrobots posted:I see. Sacrificing battery life for extended range in the very short term. It is more like sacrificing battery life by not installing active cooling in order to meet a low price point and still sell them nationwide. Cars in temperate climates see much much less derogation. I have lost maybe 5 miles of range after 2 years of ownership in nut freezing Indianapolis. I have not lost any bars but that doesn't mean a whole lot. I would not count on replacement batteries being available ever though since so few are sold. I would be funny though if tesla started selling them assuming they ever finish building the giant battery factory.
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Jan 5, 2015 19:48
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Mange Mite posted:I'm sure they'll manage it but this sounds like a nightmare from a testing standpoint once you start having mulitple versions/model years since you'd have to make sure there's no, say, weird cooling or even driving dynamics/crash safety issues with every iteration of battery pack / firmware. You start running into the PC scenario where the number of different hardware variations increases exponentially and you feel obligated to maintain backwards compatibility and support for older stuff. This is also why the releasing of Tesla's patents could possibly end up being a boon, as there can be standard battery pack interfaces and cooling mechanisms, so that the car's system isn't dealing with the batteries on such a low level to the degree they are now. That's not to say it's terribly likely, however, as forced obsolescence and proprietary lockdowns are in the best interest of car manufacturers, so sadly all we'll probably get out of it is standardized fast charging ports as having standard EV charging infrastructure is important to selling more EVs.
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Jan 5, 2015 22:35
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IOwnCalculus posted:Not nearly to the extent of the Volt, no. The Leaf uses drat near all of its possible electric capacity out of the gate, and there's a very noticeable reduction in range in as short as one to two years in hot climates. How bad is the range hit people are seeing? I've been thinking about a Leaf and live in Tennessee. Haven't even test driven one at this point but my Dad and I were talking about them over the holiday break and he got me to start pricing them out and seeing how it would work for my commute.
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Jan 5, 2015 22:37
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NitroSpazzz posted:How bad is the range hit people are seeing? I've been thinking about a Leaf and live in Tennessee. Haven't even test driven one at this point but my Dad and I were talking about them over the holiday break and he got me to start pricing them out and seeing how it would work for my commute. I live in south Texas so the Leaf spends much of the year in 100+ degree heat. I lost one bar after two years and seem to be losing 5-10 miles per year.
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Jan 5, 2015 23:11
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duz posted:I live in south Texas so the Leaf spends much of the year in 100+ degree heat. I lost one bar after two years and seem to be losing 5-10 miles per year. I think some drivers in AZ are seeing worse than that. At any rate, since my commute is within 10mi of the realistic highway range when new round-trip (without even factoring in HVAC) and they won't let me plug in at work (I tried), the Leaf is an ever so tantalizing option that just isn't quite there for me.
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Jan 5, 2015 23:18
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Elephanthead posted:It is more like sacrificing battery life by not installing active cooling in order to meet a low price point and still sell them nationwide. This is part of why I choose the Volt over the Leaf, true the range is half but i rarely use it all.
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Jan 6, 2015 01:23
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It should be noted that the current-production battery chemistry is supposed to be much better in hot weather. I have no experience with either the new battery or hot weather but I don't notice any degradation after 15 months and 20,000 miles. That's not to say it hasn't, just that I can't tell the difference. I did notice a range hit when the Blizzaks went on, though. At least 5-10%.
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Jan 6, 2015 03:25
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