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Trabisnikof posted:Actually, MuckRock wanted only civil rights and torts cases, but NYC said their system can't segregate out like that. So don't blame MuckRock. MuckRock initially wanted everything. But for some reason that later request to narrow the scope never loaded when I initially read it, So Ill take my lump on that.
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Jan 5, 2015 18:23
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El Scandelouse posted:Is there any legal precedent for a grand jury member to sue the prosecutor for being terrible like Bob McCollough? He's not suing the prosecutor for being terrible; he's challenging the grand jury secrecy rules (which prevent him from speaking about the case) as violating his first amendment rights and asking for an injunction.
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Jan 5, 2015 18:45
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zzyzx posted:He's not suing the prosecutor for being terrible; he's challenging the grand jury secrecy rules (which prevent him from speaking about the case) as violating his first amendment rights and asking for an injunction. I understand. I doubt this lawsuit would have been filed had McCollough not been terrible though.
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Jan 5, 2015 18:57
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zzyzx posted:He's not suing the prosecutor for being terrible; he's challenging the grand jury secrecy rules (which prevent him from speaking about the case) as violating his first amendment rights and asking for an injunction.
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Jan 5, 2015 19:02
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Vahakyla posted:Police officers are agents of the state. If you assign them to have individual responsibility, you make a system where a cop crashing a car into someone in a plain minor traffic accident has to pay out the repair. Or where a cop who breaks doors to get into a house has to pay for those doors. Employees doing things on the governments time shouldn't be held individually and solely responsible for poo poo that happens. Yeahhhh, I wasn't suggesting abrogating sovereign immunity or altering how torts are structured. Just who pays for them. Cops using their arrest powers have fantastic protection from their torts. In fact, in California, a citizen has the same arrest powers as a police officer so long as there has been a breach of the peace or a felony. The only difference is that police officers have a huge liability shield. That said, different standards apply to cops and I'm not suggesting changing that. But police procedures can, and should stand in for a reasonably prudent person analysis. Are you a cop? Were you following procedures? Taxpayer's got your back. It's extremely loving difficult to sue the police and win. They are experts at testifying in court because it's part of their job, often conspire to commit perjury, generally have custody of and an opportunity to corrupt evidence, etc. I'm not proposing changing tort law. I'm proposing cost-shifting the payouts from the most egregious cases. Maybe if the person exhibited a reckless disregard rather than simple negligence. If the union wants to lock step behind outrageous activity, the least we can expect is that they pay for it. Perhaps this would discourage unions from hiring officers with a history of disruptions in other jurisdictions.
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Jan 5, 2015 19:06
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Since when do unions make hiring decisions for management? Maybe GM should be able to sue the UAW for making lovely cars too? Union busting probably isn't the answer to stopping government abuses.
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Jan 5, 2015 19:19
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DARPA posted:Is grand jury service mandatory like on a petit jury? Or is there an option to walk away rather than swearing to secrecy? Grand jury service is mandatory.
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Jan 5, 2015 19:31
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Dum Cumpster posted:Some dark humor for the thread: This is from a few days ago, but a bunch of pages ago there was a discussion about how police are presented in the media and this case gives a pretty blatant example of it. This is from the website of a newspaper with a daily circulation of 500,000 Before they knew he was a cop. http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/thug-attacks-female-mta-employee-bronx-cops-article-1.2061700 [quote="Thug attacks female MTA employee at Bronx train station: cops (VIDEO) "]A hulking brute grabbed a 28-year-old MTA employee up in a bear hug at a Bronx train station, shoved her onto the platform and began choking her in an unprovoked attack - then ran away smiling, authorities said Wednesday. The victim, who was on duty and in full uniform, was standing on the southbound platform of the East Tremont train station at 2:30 a.m. on Dec. 23 when the unidentified suspect ran up and attacked her. After throttling the woman, the man hightailed it out of the station, police said. Surveillance cameras caught the man, wearing a black jacket, brown pants and black sneakers grinning as he made his way through the turnstile. The MTA employee was rushed to a local hospital with minor injuries to her head, neck and back, officials said. Her position with the Transit Authority was not immediately disclosed.[/quote] And after they knew he was a cop. http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/nypd-turns-attacking-female-mta-employee-article-1.2063013 [quote="NYPD cop turns himself in for attacking female MTA employee "]An NYPD cop has surrendered in an attack on an MTA worker, officials said Thursday. Police Officer Mirjan Lolja, 37, was suspended after the assault in which the Metropolitan Transportation Authority worker — who was on-duty and in her uniform — was allegedly put into a bear hug, thrown to the floor and choked, cops said. “I’m totally outraged,” Joe Costales, chairman of Transport Workers Union Local 100, said of the allegations. “We’re not safe with members of the public, and now we’re not safe from the police.” The 28-year-old conductor was on the southbound D train platform at the Tremont Ave. station when Lolja confronted her about 2:30 a.m. on Dec. 23, officials said. She was hospitalized with minor back and neck injuries. Lolja was caught on surveillance video running from the station with a smirk on his face, according to cops. Once Lolja saw the video on the news, he turned himself in at the 25th Precinct in Harlem, where he’s been a cop for seven years, police sources said. The officer said he fought with the conductor after she cursed at him for asking when the next train would arrive. When he demanded her ID and took out his phone to take a picture of her, she grabbed it, prompting a struggle, he alleged. No charges were immediately filed. The NYPD’s Internal Affairs Bureau is investigating the incident. [/quote] That's a pretty big change in tone.
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Jan 5, 2015 20:00
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quote:A hulking brute grabbed a 28-year-old MTA employee up in a bear hug at a Bronx train station, shoved her onto the platform and began choking her in an unprovoked attack - then ran away smiling, authorities said Wednesday. quote:Police Officer Mirjan Lolja, 37, was suspended after the assault in which the Metropolitan Transportation Authority worker — who was on-duty and in her uniform — was allegedly put into a bear hug, thrown to the floor and choked, cops said. Yeah that's pretty stark.
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Jan 5, 2015 20:11
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I'm assuming the Daily News is one of the rags in New York since "thug" and "hulking brute" are hilariously loaded in what is supposed to be news. It does highlight how regular people are immediately guilty of whatever crime they are accused of, especially if there is camera footage, but police MUST have had a good reason to do what they did or maybe the camera just remembered things incorrectly.
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Jan 5, 2015 20:13
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HULKING DEMON BR....other and father of two, tearfully surrendered after admitting to a crippling drinking problem that caused him to seek a hug from a fellow public worker than went hilariously wrong in a curb your enthusiasm kind of way.
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Jan 5, 2015 20:14
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Vahakyla posted:It's not though. It is really loving bad. Police officers are agents of the state. If you assign them to have individual responsibility, you make a system where a cop crashing a car into someone in a plain minor traffic accident has to pay out the repair. Or where a cop who breaks doors to get into a house has to pay for those doors. Employees doing things on the governments time shouldn't be held individually and solely responsible for poo poo that happens. Firefighters gently caress up, tax agents gently caress up, medics gently caress up, teachers gently caress up. They are shielded in their actions. It gets super hazy in a job where there is a legitimate need to use force occasionally. That said, in this case, attributing responsibility to an individual perpetuates the "bad apples" attitude of police departments and further harms the effort to get these things properly painted as systemic problems with systemic causes. Since we can't count on every police department to reform themselves, some kind of shared culpability might not be a terrible idea. At the very least, subrogation is more likely to go to actual trial than criminal offenses committed by police. Vulture Culture fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Jan 5, 2015 |
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Jan 5, 2015 20:20
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Misogynist posted:Interestingly, most medical professionals who gently caress up, including those working in public hospitals, are held personally liable for those fuckups in most jurisdictions, and are typically required to carry private malpractice insurance. It's only volunteers who are protected under good samaritan laws. And in those cases, a special standard of care is applied, congruent with the skills and judgment of a reasonable medical professional. In the case of the police, we can expect professionalism from them, which means conforming to the standards of procedure. A professional police officer is protected. An unprofessional officer must turn to his union, which will bear the costs through some kind of insurance premiums, to defend him and pay out. Assaulting someone unprovoked would not be covered, but assaulting someone in the process of an arrest after applying a reasonable amount of force, as defined by departmental policies. If departmental policies are disagree with the jurisprudence of what is reasonable or the policies set out by national organizations, then the department is on the hook. Fee shifting after the conclusion of the trial can allow an officer to hear his case in court. You could even go half way on it, and declare municipalities and unions joint and severally liable for officer misconduct that is legally determined to rise to that standard where culpability arises, then have the city and union sue each other and portion out liability. Maybe the officer union should fit 100% of the bill. Maybe 20%. There are a lot of legal mechanisms to shift liability we can use to ensure that officers, as a group, who stand behind the actions of their bad co-workers will end up paying, as a group, for that privilege. Martin Random fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Jan 5, 2015 |
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Jan 5, 2015 21:26
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Kitfox88 posted:Guns don't 'go off' unless they're so old or so poorly maintained that you're at fault anyway for using it. You pulled the trigger, either accidentally or on purpose, and it fired, because you were stupid enough to sleep with a loaded firearm in your bed and turned the safety off. Whatever the thought process, the lesson is clear: don't gently caress the police.
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Jan 5, 2015 21:43
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Martin Random posted:And in those cases, a special standard of care is applied, congruent with the skills and judgment of a reasonable medical professional. In the case of the police, we can expect professionalism from them, which means conforming to the standards of procedure. A professional police officer is protected. An unprofessional officer must turn to his union, which will bear the costs through some kind of insurance premiums, to defend him and pay out. Assaulting someone unprovoked would not be covered, but assaulting someone in the process of an arrest after applying a reasonable amount of force, as defined by departmental policies. If departmental policies are disagree with the jurisprudence of what is reasonable or the policies set out by national organizations, then the department is on the hook. Technically police are personally liable if they are acting outside the scope of their duty, but no one is particularly interested in testing the edges of that because the cops don't want to be personally liable and the victims would rather sue the city and its deep pockets. Making the cops personally liable severely hurts the victims because most cops won't have any appreciable resources to go after.
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Jan 5, 2015 21:53
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Jarmak posted:Making the cops personally liable severely hurts the victims because most cops won't have any appreciable resources to go after. Thats why you backstop them with union funds. Cops as a group protecting bad cops should pay as a group for the consequences of that. Once it starts showing up in their union balance sheet, I guarantee this bullshit will either tamper down or stop.
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Jan 5, 2015 21:54
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Martin Random posted:Thats why you backstop them with union funds. Cops as a group protecting bad cops should pay as a group for the consequences of that. Once it starts showing up in their union balance sheet, I guarantee this bullshit will either tamper down or stop.
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Jan 5, 2015 22:05
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Yeah because we have a real problem with governments and police unions being uncooperative these days.
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Jan 5, 2015 22:07
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Intel&Sebastian posted:Yeah because we have a real problem with governments and police unions being uncooperative these days. The PBA hasn't had a contract since 2010, so this conflict predates de Blasio. Rent-A-Cop fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Jan 5, 2015 |
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Jan 5, 2015 22:10
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Did you miss the last half of the previous century? Intel&Sebastian fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Jan 5, 2015 |
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Jan 5, 2015 22:12
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Intel&Sebastian posted:Did you miss the last half of the previous century? Seriously, who walks into an ongoing union dispute with zero percent? May as well just poo poo on the conference table.
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Jan 5, 2015 22:15
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Negotiations over contracts and some hot-button concern over their complete immunity from legal consequence hardly make me start wondering if state governments are turning against one of the only unions even Republicans can't fellate enough. You might as well be telling me the federal government has finally turned against Wall Street because the CPFB is still standing.
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Jan 5, 2015 22:18
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Intel&Sebastian posted:Negotiations over contracts and some hot-button concern over their complete immunity from legal consequence hardly make me start wondering if state governments are turning against one of the only unions even Republicans can't fellate enough.
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Jan 5, 2015 22:21
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Martin Random posted:Thats why you backstop them with union funds. Cops as a group protecting bad cops should pay as a group for the consequences of that. Once it starts showing up in their union balance sheet, I guarantee this bullshit will either tamper down or stop. Why would the union backstop cops for acting outside of the scope of duty? Are you suggesting some kind of statute force them to be responsible? Or are you thinking they'll do it to protect their members?
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Jan 5, 2015 22:23
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A juror in the Darren Wilson grand jury is suing McCulloch for the removal of the gag order on jurors, essentially accusing McCulloch of making inaccurate statements about the opinions of jurors on whether there was cause to prosecute Wilson. Between this and the potential for a prosecutorial misconduct charge over the known-false witness testimony that was admitted, things aren't looking quiet for him over the next few months.
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Jan 5, 2015 22:24
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Misogynist posted:A juror in the Darren Wilson grand jury is suing McCulloch for the right to remove the gag order on jurors. Edit: That was a bit cynical. Hearing what happened in deliberations would actually be pretty interesting.
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Jan 5, 2015 22:25
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Yeah it's definitely the NYCPBA that's causing that problem all over America, definitely not a ton of making GBS threads lawmaking and ignorant voting for "tough on crime" politicians. If only we could smash the unions everything would be better. Especially in the rural South, where this poo poo is rampant and nobody is union. All I'm saying is you're dumb for thinking state gov'ts are all looking for some cudgel to beat back police unions, recent events in one city notwithstanding. Whatever strawmen you want to set up from that is your own deal.
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Jan 5, 2015 22:27
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Yeah man, look how hard they're cooperating with that rockin' 0% raise de Blasio offered them. Because most unions are seeing far below the 10% that the NYPD union came asking for? Most have had raises below cost of living increases.
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Jan 5, 2015 22:29
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Yeah man, look how hard they're cooperating with that rockin' 0% raise de Blasio offered them. Who responds to "no raise" with lawlessness? Are we Russians?
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Jan 5, 2015 22:29
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Misogynist posted:A juror in the Darren Wilson grand jury is suing McCulloch for the removal of the gag order on jurors, essentially accusing McCulloch of making inaccurate statements about the opinions of jurors on whether there was cause to prosecute Wilson. Between this and the potential for a prosecutorial misconduct charge over the known-false witness testimony that was admitted, things aren't looking quiet for him over the next few months. Good he's earned being uncomfortable in his job for a little while.
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Jan 5, 2015 22:30
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SedanChair posted:Who responds to "no raise" with lawlessness? joeburz posted:Because most unions are seeing far below the 10% that the NYPD union came asking for? Most have had raises below cost of living increases.
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Jan 5, 2015 22:42
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Right, which is why you offer 3% and bargain it up to 4 or 5. Zero isn't a negotiating position, it's just a "gently caress you." Many teachers would agree with you, but they still do their jobs.
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Jan 5, 2015 23:01
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SedanChair posted:Who responds to "no raise" with lawlessness? The Praetorian Guard? Maybe the NYPD will assassinate de Blasio and hold an auction for the mayoralty, like the Guard did with old Pertinax.
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Jan 5, 2015 23:07
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Kalman posted:Why would the union backstop cops for acting outside of the scope of duty? Are you suggesting some kind of statute force them to be responsible? Or are you thinking they'll do it to protect their members? They are going to be so pissed when they realize half the country doesn't have traditional police unions in the first place, so no "back stop" funds. People don't typically sue the cop directly and not the city. That would be pointless since most cops are typical civil servants without many assets. The gimmick is to always find a way to sue the city too (or only) on behalf of the cop because that is where the money could be found. Especially when the city becomes known to "pay off" litigation prior to formal case filing and trial. It happens all the time. Untagged fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Jan 5, 2015 |
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Jan 5, 2015 23:08
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Assholes? I mean, I'm not claiming they aren't assholes or that the NYPD isn't totally hosed. I'm arguing with the idea that individual unions are somehow responsible for 150 years of Jim Crow bullshit from American police. But somehow 10% with a bunch of other extreme additives is a fair negotiating position.
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Jan 5, 2015 23:11
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joeburz posted:But somehow 10% with a bunch of other extreme additives is a fair negotiating position. Rent-A-Cop posted:Assholes? I mean, I'm not claiming they aren't assholes
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Jan 5, 2015 23:14
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Rent-A-Cop posted:I was unaware that being fair to management was a requirement of having a valid union. So, it's ok for one side to come in with an extreme bargaining position, but not the other? Edit, Oh hey, looks like in addition to the lawsuit, there's a bar complaint or 15 being filed. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy. http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2015/01/05/bar-complaint-filed-against-mcculloch/ Spun Dog fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Jan 5, 2015 |
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Jan 5, 2015 23:16
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Spun Dog posted:Many teachers would agree with you, but they still do their jobs. Teachers know if they blow off their jobs, bad things happen. NYPD, in their secret heart, knows that isn't true in their case.
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Jan 5, 2015 23:18
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Rent-A-Cop posted:I was unaware that being fair to management was a requirement of having a valid union. Yes, let's start at 3% to be fair while the union starts at 10% with a 10% magical unicorn bonus, and other random poo poo. What a great start to negotiations.
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Jan 5, 2015 23:18
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Spun Dog posted:Many teachers would agree with you, but they still do their jobs. That would be because DeBlasio actually gave them raises. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/05/01/teachers-nyc-union-deal/8584305/
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Jan 5, 2015 23:19
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