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paranoid randroid posted:She explicitly said she feels that she could have handled the situation better. She's changing the series of decisions that led up to that moment. And the exchange ends like this: quote:GC: BUT TH3N, 1 W4S TH3 ON3 WHO M4D3 TH3 S3R13S OF D3C1S1ONS WH1CH L3D UP TO TH4T CHO1C3, 4ND COMPL3T3LY P41NT3D TH3 OPT1ONS 1NTO TH4T CORN3R This nod to Vriska and Beta Vriska being two different people hasn't paid off yet, but if things shake out like this: - Vriska goes off to fight Jack - John erases trail - Vriska fights Jack and wins/survives We could have an alive (formerly beta) Vriska and still keep the Character Development Vriska who's currently holding hands with Meenah.
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Jan 5, 2015 21:30
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Where were we shown Vriska's sparkle trail? Did it show up in regular pages, or was it during one of Vriska's Flash games?
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Jan 5, 2015 21:34
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Unless the updates show Skrillex Hair Vriska blipping out of existence, I'd say you could keep her around as someone for regular-type Vriska to have a serious, backwards chair style, rap session with. The development is retained, and maybe even comes into play.
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Jan 5, 2015 21:34
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Where were we shown Vriska's sparkle trail? Did it show up in regular pages, or was it during one of Vriska's Flash games? It was in the middle of Doc Scratch's narration section. Here's the relevant part where Jack follows the trail: http://www.mspaintadventures.com/scratch.php?s=6&p=005702
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Jan 5, 2015 21:35
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Thank you very much.
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Jan 5, 2015 21:38
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Flea Wars posted:I mean does Homestuck as we originally read it not "exist" any more, with the "real" story now happening off screen? Homestuck as I originally read it didn't have mysterious arms popping out of blue portals or oil splotches in random places. The panels as they exist now do, however. This, to me, is supposed to tell us something about how John's alterations work: they do actually change the way the story "actually went," so yeah, the original story we remember does not "exist," those events did not "really happen" within the narrative. It's just not practical for Hussie to remove or change huge collections of pages to reflect this so he has this password thing. So, if you're a new reader coming on the scene where Terezi reveals that one of her toys got killed before he could testify, you read what happens in her little game afterwards. But once John starts fixing things according to Terezi's plan, you go down the other path, where he steals the toy, and that's what the actual story is. I don't know if this demonstration with the arms and oil will be as clear to future archival readers as it is to people who'd been caught up when John put his hand in the doodad.
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Jan 5, 2015 21:39
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All these folks talking about Vriska could use Sollux giving them the backwards chair chat. poo poo, wasn't it even a bit of a plot point that with personal development went stagnant in the dream bubbles when the Beforan trolls were introduces?
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Jan 5, 2015 22:04
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paranoid randroid posted:Unless the updates show Skrillex Hair Vriska blipping out of existence, I'd say you could keep her around as someone for regular-type Vriska to have a serious, backwards chair style, rap session with. The development is retained, and maybe even comes into play. Too many Vriskas will spoil the 8roth.
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Jan 5, 2015 22:08
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Wasn't the Universe Frog already dead by this point? I thought Bec Noir had done that during his initial rampage through the trolls' session.
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Jan 5, 2015 23:12
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A good poster posted:Wasn't the Universe Frog already dead by this point? I thought Bec Noir had done that during his initial rampage through the trolls' session. It wasn't dead until he killed it during cascade.
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Jan 5, 2015 23:18
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A good poster posted:Wasn't the Universe Frog already dead by this point? I thought Bec Noir had done that during his initial rampage through the trolls' session. It was the very last thing he did after destroying all the other planets.
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Jan 5, 2015 23:20
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I like how all of the continuity time travel changing designed to save everyone is still fine with leaving at least 6 trolls dead forever.
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Jan 6, 2015 00:56
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Maybe it's not even a matter of stopping Vriska, just delaying her. If she doesn't show up right away, Jack will destroy the frog, then they can fight until PM gets there, at which point he'll either be killed be the two of them, or take off after the meteor. Everything that happens on the meteor trip can still happen (hell Terezi can still assume Vriska died fighting Jack), but Vriska will turn up in the middle of the events leading up to Game Over and be able to tip the scales... more than stealing the ring already tipped them from the sounds of storytime in Calliope's hideout.
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Jan 6, 2015 01:04
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David Copperfield posted:I like how all of the continuity time travel changing designed to save everyone is still fine with leaving at least 6 trolls dead forever. Terezi's idea was subtle changes that wouldn't affect the timeline much until suddenly all the pieces fall in place. Besides, there's way too many trolls, we can honestly get rid of like 20 of them without losing anything of value.
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Jan 6, 2015 01:06
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At least that's a simple fix. Just grab all the corpses and move them to their quest bed at the appropriate time. "The appropriate time" being when Hussie needs some more of that sweet, sweet hoodie money.
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Jan 6, 2015 01:17
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There seems to be agreement that we will see the unglitched version of the meteor arrival flash, but what are the chances that we will see an unglitched version of [S] Flip? It seems that we could be heading in that direction.
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Jan 6, 2015 01:21
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The core thing here is that Terezi wasn't comfortable with changing anyone's decisions other than her own. It wasn't her choices that caused Gamzee to flip out. It wasn't her choices that got spider troll to spear Tavros.
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Jan 6, 2015 01:23
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Terezi should keep Vriska from going to fight Jack with copious amounts of pap and shoosh. Problem: solve.
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Jan 6, 2015 01:30
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Two Inch Bee posted:This nod to Vriska and Beta Vriska being two different people hasn't paid off yet, but if things shake out like this: Oh poo poo, I had completely forgotten about hypothetical Beta-Vriska. It would make so much sense if the whole purpose of this retconny shenanigans was to remake Beta-Vriska as the new Alpha-Vriska (minus Karkat/Terezi getting murdered). It would fit in so well with Aranea's idea of healing the beta timeline into the alpha. Plus despite all the allusions to her we've never seen Beta-Vriska in any dreambubble. Though I guess there'd need to be some excuse as to why she wasn't around during the Meteor trip and why Jack Noir would still be alive. Jack escapes and she flies after him along with PM?
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Jan 6, 2015 01:35
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^^^ But hasn't it been said that Dream Bubbles don't really adhere to the same rules as the rest of the universes? I.e if a Doomed Timeline Jade were to show up, but that timeline is corrected and she survives, she doesn't "stop" existing in the Dream Bubbles.MarquiseMindfang posted:Maybe it's not even a matter of stopping Vriska, just delaying her. If she doesn't show up right away, Jack will destroy the frog, then they can fight until PM gets there, at which point he'll either be killed be the two of them, or take off after the meteor. Everything that happens on the meteor trip can still happen (hell Terezi can still assume Vriska died fighting Jack), but Vriska will turn up in the middle of the events leading up to Game Over and be able to tip the scales... more than stealing the ring already tipped them from the sounds of storytime in Calliope's hideout. Well, a few pages later, Doc Scratch mentions that a Seer of Mind would probably know better, and would know where luck isn't even a factor. This could be the whole point. Terezi is flexing her Seer of Mind powers because she knows it doesn't matter how "lucky" Vriska gets, she wouldn't win. And if she does, it still leaves her alone vs Lord English. Whether that's the overall point or not, I'd be willing to bet that Terezi did specifically factor in how John would gently caress things up. If she wanted him to just go and stop Terezi and then dust away her fairy dust trail that's all she'd have had him do.
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Jan 6, 2015 01:40
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I think it's safe for John to make fatal changes to the timeline (for example, Vriska killing Bec Noir and preventing him from doing key things like enabling the green sun) without affecting his own existence, just that it would mess up the timeline and presumably he wants to live within time at some point. I still think it'd be possible for John to collect his friends on LOWAS out of time and build their own universe somehow, but probably he'll actually have to defeat Caliborn and reclaim the actual multiverse/timeline. Actually, it'd be funny if the end goal of Terezi's plan is to produce the best, most developed version of Terezi for John to recruit, then she uses her Seer of Mind powers to have John redo his time-tampering to produce the best versions of all the other characters. LOWAS becomes home to a team of super-versions of the trolls and kids each from a version of the timeline John shaped to maximize their own personal development! Oh, also, asking whether Terezi allowing Vriska to get killed by Bec Noir so long as John's around to hide the fairy dust trail back to the meteor is still killing her opens up a can of worms. I mean, John's power over the story only seems limited by his control and his imagination, so it'd be his responsibility to stop every death in the comic or else he'd be killing them by inaction too.
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Jan 6, 2015 07:45
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Dolash posted:I think it's safe for John to make fatal changes to the timeline (for example, Vriska killing Bec Noir and preventing him from doing key things like enabling the green sun) without affecting his own existence, just that it would mess up the timeline and presumably he wants to live within time at some point. I still think it'd be possible for John to collect his friends on LOWAS out of time and build their own universe somehow, but probably he'll actually have to defeat Caliborn and reclaim the actual multiverse/timeline. I'd be okay with this, actually, assuming "end game" is soon. I kind of imagine that they're going to want to God Tier everyone before they face Lord English. I mean. I'm still pretty sure John's gonna be the one to kill LE, what with Fears No Anvil being described as "Stops Time". And the Page of Hope (i.e Jake) class being "One who brings Hope".
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Jan 6, 2015 09:23
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paranoid randroid posted:I'm trying to find a way to express my take on how a retcon would effect a potential paradox where a thing needs to exist but if it cant exist then... anyway I'm getting a pinching sensation at the base of my skull now is the salient point here. This is probably why Terezi is sticking to the subtle, more easily predicted changes. John is kind of walking on eggshells here.
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Jan 6, 2015 11:05
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Ariong posted:This is probably why Terezi is sticking to the subtle, more easily predicted changes. John is kind of walking on eggshells here. John is dealing with forces, which, if handled recklessly, would nullify the basic ability of intelligent beings in all real and hypothetical planes of existence to give a poo poo. It would be stupid of him to mismanage these forces. He is pretty stupid.
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Jan 6, 2015 14:29
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Eh, he's basically following Dave's rules for time travel which is to not worry too much about it. The "don't do anything retarded" part, less so.
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Jan 6, 2015 15:18
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I wonder wheter Terezi knew that John was going to put his own spin on the messages or not. I would expect as much from a Seer of Mind.
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Jan 6, 2015 16:01
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Blackheart posted:Eh, he's basically following Dave's rules for time travel which is to not worry too much about it. The "don't do anything retarded" part, less so. The problem is, Dave's rules worked for Dave because he quickly figured out that all of his time travel was effectively fated to happen and going against fate was dangerous - if future Dave shows up and punches him in the face, Dave's reaction was to go "welp, guess I gotta punch myself in the face now" and go do it. Rose even criticized this attitude when she noted he was using it as an excuse to avoid responsibility for his actions (like not telling Jade she was going to accidentally shoot him). John's powers work in basically the opposite way to Dave's in that he can add whatever he likes to the timeline, and just like that Simpsons Halloween bit if he goes around slapping time willy nilly there'll be consequences. John's never been too bright, so I wouldn't be surprised if other characters besides Terezi feed him instructions for changes they want to make to the timeline.
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Jan 6, 2015 16:36
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The interesting for me here about this comic in particular is that, not counting 'R3UN1ON," it's the first time we (might) be able to see the retjohning effect more than just Terezi's thoughts. The conversation with Dave has already been changed, since Terezi actually took the time to type out 'dot dot dot HUH' when surprised by a thing...now if she follows that up with 'hey um your buddy egbert has apparently teamed up with my future self to steal my stuffed animals and leave me notes' then the human team's Time Guy is now officially aware of the situation. ...no idea what that would lead to, if anybody can offer advice on Time shenanigans it's Dave.
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Jan 6, 2015 17:36
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I wouldn't say John is dumb. I mean, he was the guy to figure out how the captcha system worked.
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Jan 6, 2015 17:39
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John's not necessarily dumb, he's just kind of rushing ahead without thinking of the consequences in this situation.
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Jan 6, 2015 17:42
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He's an inattentive goofball. He's not dumb, though they look the same sometimes.
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Jan 6, 2015 17:43
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Tunicate posted:I wouldn't say John is dumb. I mean, he was the guy to figure out how the captcha system worked. Decent Int, subpar Wis.
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Jan 6, 2015 19:24
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Bobulus posted:Decent Int, subpar Wis. Oh god trap sprung.
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Jan 6, 2015 19:41
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JT Jag posted:Somewhat above-average int. Both WIS and CON would be his dump stats. CHA is his best stat for sure. His physical stats would be pretty unremarkable, but his hammers would confer a big bonus to STR, and the more he learns about the Breeze, the bigger a bonus to AGI he gets, until eventually he can kinda avoid stuff at will.
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Jan 6, 2015 19:49
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XkyRauh posted:Wait wait, what system mixes WIS and AGI? Wouldn't you want Wisdom and Dexterity (Dungeons & Dragons) or Perception and Agility (SPECIAL/Fallout)?
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Jan 6, 2015 19:52
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Terezi is a Seer of Mind, I bet she knows the kind of dumb poo poo John would get up to and accounted for it.
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Jan 6, 2015 19:59
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KoB posted:Terezi is a Seer of Mind, I bet she knows the kind of dumb poo poo John would get up to and accounted for it. This. The whole point of being Seer of Mind is that she can see all the possible paths, and she would know quite well that the paths involving John's free-will participation wouldn't proceed according to her direct orders.
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Jan 6, 2015 20:02
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XkyRauh posted:Wait wait, what system mixes WIS and AGI? Wouldn't you want Wisdom and Dexterity (Dungeons & Dragons) or Perception and Agility (SPECIAL/Fallout)? look at this dragon quest scrub
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Jan 6, 2015 20:16
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You don't have to be a seer of mind to figure out John is a doofus.
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Jan 6, 2015 20:25
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Look, John's statline is obviously Pluck +3 Grit +1 Code +0 Rhyme -1 Dream +2. (advanced from Pluck +2 Grit +0 Code +0 Rhyme -1 Dream +1) He is the man who cannot read the mood, or the book, but somehow does the right thing anyway.
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Jan 6, 2015 21:38
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