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So did Le Pen just win all elections forever?
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Jan 7, 2015 19:17
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thompson posted:Well, not until now I guess right? It would take a lot of effort and cooperation between each EU country (and some who aren't currently members) in order for this to be done effectively. There are also still existing stockpiles and due to a peculiarity with the way most E.U. country's gun laws work (where demilitarizing a weapon simply means clipping a firing pin, putting some holes in the barrel and welding the chamber, all fairly easy to reverse if you have anything from an auto repair shop) as opposed to the US' bizarre regulations (where there is a legal process to buy the actual machine guns but demilitarizing a weapon involves torch cutting the crap out of it) it's actually easier to get inert ordnance or a bolt action/semi auto weapon that can be readily converted to fire both live and fully automatic in many places in Europe than some might think. In that case often times there isn't even any paperwork involved since the weapons are treated as "deactivated to EU standards" and can just be mail ordered most of the time. These guys probably didn't go that route since it seems like they were well connected but this prompted me to do some research on it and I was surprised at how easily one could come by easily reactivated weapons of war in the E.U.; largely it doesn't seem to have been a problem violence wise with a few exceptions in the U.K. where street gangs were taking blank guns and deactivated weapons and reactivating them. That's a whole other thread though and I'm sorry for the derail. 
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Jan 7, 2015 19:17
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Retail Slave posted:I never once said that. Islam has plenty of hosed up poo poo in it. So does Christianity and just about every other single organized religion in the history of the world. The problem, like someone earlier up said, is that Islam (and Christianity and Judaism) are almost schizophrenic in their holy books. These kind of extremists can point to their holy book and say it told them to do it, just as moderates can point to them and highlight a passage that directly contradicts the justification. Different people get out of religion what they want, and think everyone else blind to the true way. Perhaps all the extremist poo poo should be neutered from the holy books so that extremists really don't have a leg to stand on.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:17
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Arkane posted:Maybe, just maybe, the religion founded by a violent psychopath pedophile is the problem. It really is strange that liberal moderate minded people don't embrace this rhetoric. Why could this be?
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Jan 7, 2015 19:18
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Retail Slave posted:I never once said that. Islam has plenty of hosed up poo poo in it. So does Christianity and just about every other single organized religion in the history of the world. But when it happens on such a large scale as it does within the islam world community, then you should start examining what exactly makes that religion stand out. We are not talking about one or two isolated incidents, we are talking about regular happenings. Not all muslims are terrorists, but when compared to the other major religions in the world today, Islam stands out as the one with the most terrorists acts committed in its name. Its time for islam to take a good look at itself and see what can be done to counter this development.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:18
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Private Eye posted:The problem, like someone earlier up said, is that Islam (and Christianity and Judaism) are almost schizophrenic in their holy books. These kind of extremists can point to their holy book and say it told them to do it, just as moderates can point to them and highlight a passage that directly contradicts the justification. Different people get out of religion what they want, and think everyone else blind to the true way. Perhaps all the extremist poo poo should be neutered from the holy books so that extremists really don't have a leg to stand on. As if the extremists would ever accept that.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:19
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Retail Slave posted:I never once said that. Islam has plenty of hosed up poo poo in it. So does Christianity and just about every other single organized religion in the history of the world. You don't blame the raw text of the Quran? You don't blame the Idiots Guide to Islam? You don't blame the imam these guys presumably listened to? Statements like "the problem isn't Islam" sound so meaningless and imprecise. Islam may not be the problem, but the problem is Islamic.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:19
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Arkane posted:And, please, enough with the "it's religion that is the problem!!!!" There is no Christian airplane hijacking epidemic. The world is not facing a problem of Buddhists going around beheading children. There are not Jewish people putting bombs on themselves and blowing up a bus full of people or blowing up a pizzeria. Hindus aren't blowing up night clubs. Atheists aren't blowing up trains. Taoists aren't killing people for drawing cartoons. RELIGION in and of itself isn't the issue. That equivalency doesn''t exist in any plane of reality. Islam has a virtual monopoly on violence. And try as you might to ignore that fact, you get reminded year after year with each new terrorist attack that you are obnoxiously wrong. There's no christian airplane hijacking epidemic, but then again, there's no Islamic one either. There does seem to be a Christian nation that does bomb/shoot the gently caress out of Islamic countries a lot, tho.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:19
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Arkane posted:Always mind boggling that the most violent, repressive religion gets essentially defended by people who self-describe as "liberal." Muslim terrorist attack after Muslim terrorist attack, the script is the same. "Please think of all of the good Muslim people!" "It's just a coincidence that these hundreds of terrorist attacks have all been perpetrated by Muslims." "Christianity is just as bad!!!!!" Thread is super predictable in its abundance of horrible posting.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:19
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Private Eye posted:The problem, like someone earlier up said, is that Islam (and Christianity and Judaism) are almost schizophrenic in their holy books. These kind of extremists can point to their holy book and say it told them to do it, just as moderates can point to them and highlight a passage that directly contradicts the justification. Different people get out of religion what they want, and think everyone else blind to the true way. Perhaps all the extremist poo poo should be neutered from the holy books so that extremists really don't have a leg to stand on. They would just use pre-modified texts and justify their beliefs as being even more legitimate that way.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:20
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Luigi Thirty posted:So did Le Pen just win all elections forever? The next election is in 2017, I think we've got a while before we can really answer that question.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:20
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FourLeaf posted:As if the extremists would ever accept that. Then they can form their own super extreme chrislamaism religion that we would be well justified in eradicating.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:21
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Arkane posted:Always mind boggling that the most violent, repressive religion gets essentially defended by people who self-describe as "liberal." Muslim terrorist attack after Muslim terrorist attack, the script is the same. "Please think of all of the good Muslim people!" "It's just a coincidence that these hundreds of terrorist attacks have all been perpetrated by Muslims." "Christianity is just as bad!!!!!" Thread is super predictable in its abundance of horrible posting. We might be more willing to give your rhetoric any consideration at all if you didn't keep going on about "Islam." This is Islamism and political terrorism plain and simple, and it has as much to do with Islam as the Jamestown Massacre had to do with animism.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:21
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Forgall posted:Terrorist attacks are done by islamic conservatives. And yes, the world would be a much better place if we managed to get rid of the whole lot of you.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:21
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Forgall posted:Terrorist attacks are done by islamic conservatives. And yes, the world would be a much better place if we managed to get rid of the whole lot of you.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:21
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Combed Thunderclap posted:The next election is in 2017, I think we're good. There's some cantonal/regional elections this year but I don't think people know/care (even though they're kind of important, oh well). I really wonder what's going to happen when the regional councils are all filled with FN people, I want to say not much since France is so centralized but they must have some sort of local power.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:21
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GyverMac posted:But when it happens on such a large scale as it does within the islam world community, then you should start examining what exactly makes that religion stand out. We are not talking about one or two isolated incidents, we are talking about regular happenings. Not all muslims are terrorists, but when compared to the other major religions in the world today, Islam stands out as the one with the most terrorists acts committed in its name. Its time for islam to take a good look at itself and see what can be done to counter this development. Your problem is your inability to understand that Christians don't need to commit their terrorist acts under an explicit religious banner. Also, do you know how loving ridiculous it is to say that "islam" needs to take a good look at itself and see what can be done to counter this development? "islam" is loving enormous.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:23
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I hope that France can finally start talking about getting serious with gun control after this.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:23
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Cat Mattress posted:No, I only said he was from a Jewish family, which I knew only from looking at the Wikipedia page in question. That's a fair point. I was a little too keen to argue and missed what you were saying.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:24
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Powercrazy posted:I hope that France can finally start talking about getting serious with gun control after this. Their gun death rate is already very low, seems like they're doing an ok job? 
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Jan 7, 2015 19:24
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Periodiko posted:It really is strange that liberal moderate minded people don't embrace this rhetoric. Why could this be? Its getting so a red-blooded Man can't even call for the invasion of a sovereign territory and further subjugation of groups who largely had nothing to do with it because of a criminal act perpetrated by a nonstate actor without those fuckin PC SJWs considering the rammifications of acting on impulse. Makes me sick to think how far we done fell since 911. A G-ddamn Travesty.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:24
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SedanChair posted:There's nothing "moderate" Muslims can do to curb extremism, period. It's not in their power and it's not their job anyway. I'm curious. Who do you think can help curb Islamic extremism?
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Jan 7, 2015 19:24
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Arkane posted:The world is not facing a problem of Buddhists going around beheading children. ... Hindus aren't blowing up night clubs. Also, just for the record, the essence of this is total horseshit. There are violent extremist Buddhist monks in Myanmar slaughtering people en masse, and there are tons of examples of Hindu terrorism and mob violence, to the extent that I'm kind of amazed you included Hindus at all.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:24
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Periodiko posted:Also, just for the record, the essence of this is total horseshit. There are violent extremist Buddhist monks in Myanmar slaughtering people en masse, and there are tons of examples of Hindu terrorism and mob violence, to the extent that I'm kind of amazed you included Hindus at all. something something fedora
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Jan 7, 2015 19:26
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Yeah Indian Hindus are raping people like it's going out of style. Not sure if that's the best example.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:26
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Hammerstein posted:As European I can only speak for my continent. But I can't remember a terror attack (or anything remotely close to the current events) by Christian fundamentalists on European soil in the last decades. The US and Ireland are a different topic.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:26
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Droopy Goines posted:I'm curious. Who do you think can help curb Islamic extremism? The US. Act One: Stop support of KSA, responsible for funding acts of jihadist violence around the world.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:27
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Periodiko posted:Also, just for the record, the essence of this is total horseshit. There are violent extremist Buddhist monks in Myanmar slaughtering people en masse, and there are tons of examples of Hindu terrorism and mob violence, to the extent that I'm kind of amazed you included Hindus at all. Yeah, pretty much every religion has either been violent and lovely in the past, or is being violent and lovely currently.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:27
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Radbot posted:Their gun death rate is already very low, seems like they're doing an ok job? Sorry I project all my, often times erroneous, preconceived notions on current events. Factual reality doesn't allow me to whinge hard enough so it's welcomed relief.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:28
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Periodiko posted:Also, just for the record, the essence of this is total horseshit. There are violent extremist Buddhist monks in Myanmar slaughtering people en masse, and there are tons of examples of Hindu terrorism and mob violence, to the extent that I'm kind of amazed you included Hindus at all. He forgot the pronoun "our" give him some slack.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:28
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FourLeaf posted:There's a difference between examining how religious fundamentalism is harmful to modern society and proclaiming a blanket condemnation of a whole religion like the others are any better. This is pretty much what I'm trying to say. gently caress the extremists in any religion is my point, but don't condemn the entire religion. There are plenty of peaceful muslims, jews, christians, etc who are good people and don't practice or condone any sort of violence. It's just that you never hear about those people. You hear about the fraction of a percentage who goes off on a rampage and kills people because reasons. Private Eye posted:The problem, like someone earlier up said, is that Islam (and Christianity and Judaism) are almost schizophrenic in their holy books. These kind of extremists can point to their holy book and say it told them to do it, just as moderates can point to them and highlight a passage that directly contradicts the justification. Different people get out of religion what they want, and think everyone else blind to the true way. Perhaps all the extremist poo poo should be neutered from the holy books so that extremists really don't have a leg to stand on. You're not entirely wrong, but again, just because it says so in a book does not give you justification to do whatever the book says to do. Personal choice and all that. Blame the fringe who preach violence and killing against a group of people as just and right and as what their god would want. Your post points out a matter of personal interpretation (one passage says this, another says directly the opposite) and it's all in how one chooses to believe the holy book. GyverMac posted:But when it happens on such a large scale as it does within the islam world community, then you should start examining what exactly makes that religion stand out. We are not talking about one or two isolated incidents, we are talking about regular happenings. Not all muslims are terrorists, but when compared to the other major religions in the world today, Islam stands out as the one with the most terrorists acts committed in its name. Its time for islam to take a good look at itself and see what can be done to counter this development. Also true. Islam should change itself. But good luck trying to convince any sort of religion to change its holy book to include or exclude anything, even the addition or omission of so much as a comma would be seen as blasphemy. It shouldn't be, and the religions should get with the times, kind of like how the Constitution should update itself to reflect the modern times. But again, good luck with that.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:28
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Periodiko posted:Also, just for the record, the essence of this is total horseshit. There are violent extremist Buddhist monks in Myanmar slaughtering people en masse, and there are tons of examples of Hindu terrorism and mob violence, to the extent that I'm kind of amazed you included Hindus at all.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:33
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GyverMac posted:But when it happens on such a large scale as it does within the islam world community, then you should start examining what exactly makes that religion stand out. We are not talking about one or two isolated incidents, we are talking about regular happenings. Not all muslims are terrorists, but when compared to the other major religions in the world today, Islam stands out as the one with the most terrorists acts committed in its name. Its time for islam to take a good look at itself and see what can be done to counter this development. Terrorism and political and sectarian violence has been widespread in the Middle East since before WWII, but it wasn't really until recently (I'd say in the 80s) that ideologies grounding themselves in Islamic identity (Islamism) became truly significant. There were a bunch of terrorist attacks in the Middle East before this most commonly committed by nationalist or socialist groups. Islamism came to the forefront with the decline or failure of these ideologies and, I think, it is a much more powerful and persuasive ideology for Middle Easterners than what nationalism or socialism was/is given the still significant place of religion in pretty much all Islamic countries which also gives it international appeal.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:33
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Retail Slave posted:This is pretty much what I'm trying to say. gently caress the extremists in any religion is my point, but don't condemn the entire religion. There are plenty of peaceful muslims, jews, christians, etc who are good people and don't practice or condone any sort of violence. It's just that you never hear about those people. You hear about the fraction of a percentage who goes off on a rampage and kills people because reasons. I know plenty of nice republicans, please stop assuming they all share beliefs consistent with their party platform.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:34
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WoodrowSkillson posted:I know plenty of nice whites, please stop assuming they all share beliefs consistent with their racial platform.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:36
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WoodrowSkillson posted:I know plenty of nice republicans, please stop assuming they all share beliefs consistent with their party platform. Well, to be fair, I DO know plenty of Republican gun owners who haven't gone on a public rampage with one. Or: gently caress you guys for not pigeonholing every single member of a group into a neat little stereotype of my choosing. BigBallChunkyTime fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Jan 7, 2015 |
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Jan 7, 2015 19:37
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Periodiko posted:Also, just for the record, the essence of this is total horseshit. There are violent extremist Buddhist monks in Myanmar slaughtering people en masse, and there are tons of examples of Hindu terrorism and mob violence, to the extent that I'm kind of amazed you included Hindus at all. To be fair to the guy you responded to, he said the "world" isn't facing a problem of extremist Buddhists and Hindus. While they definitely exist, when was the last time an extremist Buddhist conducted a terror attack outside of Myanmar? The essence isn't complete horseshit because the types of extremism are different.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:37
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relgions and political parties have far more in common then religions and race
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Jan 7, 2015 19:37
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Zephro posted:Although this rather makes the point that it's not always as simple as "it's about religion" even when the perpetrators defined themselves as Catholic. The IRA are/were Irish nationalists. They have never advocated the forced conversion of anyone to Catholicism nor the murder of non-Catholics and were responsible for the murders of many Catholics in the security services and drug dealers and petty criminals who were Catholic. E: The IRA have never been described as Catholic fundamentalists either by themselves or by the press (British or Irish). British posters itt will attest to that. Josef K. Sourdust fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Jan 7, 2015 |
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Jan 7, 2015 19:38
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WoodrowSkillson posted:relgions and political parties have far more in common then religions and race Outside of the Catholic Church, no.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:38
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