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You know what the aftermath of this event that was "exactly like Ferguson" was? Two kids were arrested, no one was shot.
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Jan 8, 2015 09:19
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Torrannor posted:I think he was arguing that the police stopped everybody from going into the mall while the looting/robbing was going on, and that it was just for the time they needed to "disperse the crowd and make arrests". I think he's lying about that and would like proof.
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Jan 8, 2015 09:23
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I think police action against a mainly black crowd of poor youths is inseparable from racism and insisting it's TOTALLY DIFFERENT is an almost unbelievably naive position to hold
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Jan 8, 2015 09:26
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drilldo squirt posted:I think he's lying about that and would like proof. You are arguing that a guy that has (twice now) said he wants many more black (and other) immigrants to come to his country is racist based on... what exactly? The fact I believe that the police should be allowed to cordon off an area while a riot is taking place? icantfindaname posted:I think police action against a mainly black crowd of poor youths is inseparable from racism and insisting it's TOTALLY DIFFERENT is an almost unbelievably naive position to hold My argument is that whatever the reason why a crowd is looting a place or the reason for the particular racial composition of that crowd once a riot is taking place you can't just not call the police and do nothing which is what you are arguing for. MeLKoR fucked around with this message at 09:35 on Jan 8, 2015 |
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Jan 8, 2015 09:29
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icantfindaname posted:I think police action against a mainly black crowd of poor youths is inseparable from racism and insisting it's TOTALLY DIFFERENT is an almost unbelievably naive position to hold So what should the police have done, then? Tell me? Let the looting go on because the youth are black? EDIT: or whatever it was that happened, I'm not Portuguese nor do I know what happened at said mall. But if your point is "police arresting two youth because they are black is racist" then I don't know what the alternative course of action was except a hands off approach where you just let the chips fall where they may. Which is something police are supposed to prevent.
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Jan 8, 2015 10:20
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I think there is something structurally racist about the situation of a bunch of policemen wailing on a group of rioting black youths (not on its own, necessarily, but in the context of our societies). Nonetheless, I'm not really sure what the gently caress our society is supposed to do when people start rioting, beating people up and breaking poo poo apart from arrest the people doing it. What other response is there for the authorities? Nobody has yet suggested an alternative. The only one I can think of is 'join in', and I think we'll all be waiting a long time if we expect the police force to be the 'vanguard party' of the revolution.
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Jan 8, 2015 10:43
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MeLKoR posted:You are commenting on an event you know nothing about. To play the race card you don't need to be informed or to argue your case. You just play it, you just say "that's racist". The burden of proof is on the side accused of racism. Those are the rules of the game.
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Jan 8, 2015 11:31
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Europe is exactly like the us
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Jan 8, 2015 12:08
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eightpole posted:Europe is exactly like the us Don't be silly. Europe is way more racist.
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Jan 8, 2015 12:16
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Usually this kind of stuff plays out a bit differently in Europe because the manner of migration of foreign persons was different from America (post-colonial migration vs slavery) and because there tends to be a deeper social safety net. On the other hand, because systematic racism was never as hardly ingrained domestically in as visible a way as American or Brazilian slavery (with some exceptions), European countries never developed the same kinds of responses when it comes to stuff like affirmative action and certain types of social integration etc. In the US it's way more commonplace for black people to obtain positions of high institutional significance than it is in the UK (for example). It's a very different experience again for countries without an extensive colonial history (say, Scandinavian countries) or countries which had exclusively European empires (Austria) and countries which were principally the victims of European empires (Balkans), and in all of these countries racism operates differently and is directed differently. Saying the racism is exactly the same is dumb and ahistorical. There are quite a lot of interesting articles you can read, written by Black people who have lived and worked in America vs the UK (for example), explaining the very different ways in which racism and anti-racist agitation operate in the two countries. Also, as the thread title explains, Europe is also undertaking a new expansion of racist and xenophobic sentiment, so people who draw a direct line from 19th century colonialism to the present are missing what has changed recently to explain the shift away from ideas of multiculturalism and cosmopolitanism in Europe. They're also not caused by all of the same belief systems (Christianity and pseudo-scientific post-Darwinian ideas of race are less of a factor, for example - though you could say the same in the US). Disinterested fucked around with this message at 12:28 on Jan 8, 2015 |
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Jan 8, 2015 12:24
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So this thread is now about which continent is more racist?
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Jan 8, 2015 12:30
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Zombiepop posted:So this thread is now about which continent is more racist? I didn't try to compare the two in terms of more or less racist, but apparently yes.
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Jan 8, 2015 12:32
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Zombiepop posted:So this thread is now about which continent is more racist? Whenever something that can be construed as racially-charged happens in Europe, American racists are quick to jump on the opportunity to feel better about their racism by saying Europe is worst. And vice-versa.
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Jan 8, 2015 12:44
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drat that does seem stupid but whatever. Anyway If we count the swedish democrats as a fascist party this might be something for this thread to discuss: http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Sweden-Democrats-reject-anti-Semitism-386751
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Jan 8, 2015 12:57
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Doctor Malaver posted:Just because something hasn't happened so far is not a proof that it won't happen. Nobody is worried about being wiped out, but it is quite conceivable that for instance the Swiss could become a minority in their own country without restricting immigration. You can also watch Macedonians slowly losing the majority in Macedonia to Albanians, although that's less an issue of immigration and more of a difference in fertility. It's ok, because 'macedonia' isn't a thing
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Jan 8, 2015 14:25
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KoldPT posted:It's ok, because 'macedonia' isn't a thing How so?
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Jan 8, 2015 14:41
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MeLKoR posted:How so? Macedonian is a made up identity that has to steal the iconography of a guy who died a million years ago in order to appear like they're better than the other slavs. Also, they really loving hate Greeks. Well, I guess really hating greeks is a national identity, because at this point it either means you're from FYROM or German.
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Jan 8, 2015 14:45
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MeLKoR posted:How so? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_naming_dispute Even the loving flag that was used +2,000 years ago by Alexander creates a pissing contest between Greece and Macedonia. E: Correction, it's the Vergina Sun on Macedonia's flag which causes it. BadOptics fucked around with this message at 14:54 on Jan 8, 2015 |
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Jan 8, 2015 14:51
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KoldPT posted:Macedonian is a made up identity that has to steal the iconography of a guy who died a million years ago in order to appear like they're better than the other slavs. Also, they really loving hate Greeks. All nationalities are made up identities. 
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Jan 8, 2015 15:03
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KoldPT posted:Macedonian is a made up identity that has to steal the iconography of a guy who died a million years ago in order to appear like they're better than the other slavs. Also, they really loving hate Greeks. Dunno man, have never met a macedonian personally but from wiki I gather they were part of the Macedonian Kingdom and they have kept a distinct identity from their neighbors, why shouldn't they be allowed to keep calling themselves macedonians like they always have? Who cares what some morons in Macedonia think, the 2000 or so macedonians living in Greece aren't enough for Macedonia to pull a Crimea. Besides, loving Macedonia isn't going to invade Greece.  e: I can already picture the last NATO helicopters taking off from the rooftops of Thessaloniki as the macedonian armor moves in. MeLKoR fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Jan 8, 2015 |
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Jan 8, 2015 15:38
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It's OK. When Greater Macedonia forms and conquers half the world, and then inevitably collapses, in 2000 years they can argue again about whether it was really Greater Greece or Greater Macedonia.
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Jan 8, 2015 15:48
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KoldPT posted:Macedonian is a made up identity that has to steal the iconography of a guy who died a million years ago in order to appear like they're better than the other slavs. Also, they really loving hate Greeks. A hundred years ago, I'd probably have agreed with you. Today? Not really. Not when so many people were born and died of old age accepting Macedonian (Slav) as their identity. Macedonian Slavs lived there ever since Slavs settled in the Balkans. Technically, what is now FYROM was a part of medieval Serbia and Bulgaria, as well as the Eastern Roman Empire, but eh. The new 'Macedonian' nationality emerged, like so many others, as a result of being hosed over by every neighbor and ruler they had. Historically, the Ottomans for obvious reasons, but then Muslim Albanians who used every surge of anti-Christian sentiment for a round of raids and pillage, then later the newly independent Greeks with their "nope, no Slavs in glorious Greek motherland", then Bulgarians with their "Y'all are Bulgarians now. excuse us while we burn down all your personal and historical documents", and then the post WW1 Serbian government that had its resources stretched too thin due to the whole 'got genocided' thing to handle Macedonian issues with non-hamfisted measures. The whole Alex the Great glorification thing is a product of modern nationalist root-searching which got out of hand - a bit like US and the obnoxious amounts of Roman esthetic in early public buildings. While cringeworthy, obsession with mocking it is usually a good way to spot European not-racists.
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Jan 8, 2015 16:03
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Holy poo poo, that Charlie Hebdo thread is really deserving its 'crap' rating. At least MIGF and TIC got probations out of it.
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Jan 8, 2015 16:07
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I even took the time to rate it. And I thought marxistchat was the worst D&D trope.
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Jan 8, 2015 16:12
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Ok I'm sorry I just really like trolling FYROM people on the internet.
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Jan 8, 2015 16:14
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my dad posted:A hundred years ago, I'd probably have agreed with you. Today? Not really. Not when so many people were born and died of old age accepting Macedonian (Slav) as their identity. If non-Balkan goons want a Balkan country to root for, pick Macedonia. Macedonians are good guys between much bigger and historically hostile neighbours. I actually feel some schadenfreude for Greece troubles because they forced Macedonians to take that demeaning FY in their name. Greeks, enjoy German dick like you gave Macedonians yours. 
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Jan 8, 2015 16:46
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my dad posted:A hundred years ago, I'd probably have agreed with you. Today? Not really. Not when so many people were born and died of old age accepting Macedonian (Slav) as their identity. Third Balkan goon chiming in to say Macedonians are chill guys you probably shouldn't bear ill-will towards.
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Jan 8, 2015 17:13
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Darth Walrus posted:Holy poo poo, that Charlie Hebdo thread is really deserving its 'crap' rating. At least MIGF and TIC got probations out of it. What happened in the thread? I stopped reading on like page 4 when it looked like it was heading to some uncomfortable places
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Jan 8, 2015 17:22
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KomradeX posted:What happened in the thread? I stopped reading on like page 4 when it looked like it was heading to some uncomfortable places It hit bottom, but I don't exactly think it's been redeemed.
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Jan 8, 2015 17:24
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KomradeX posted:What happened in the thread? I stopped reading on like page 4 when it looked like it was heading to some uncomfortable places Cippalippus posted:How do forest elves feel about burning wood in the winter? Forest elves and moderate muslims don't exist, the only real difference between the two groups is that Peter Jackson can make a movie about the former.
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Jan 8, 2015 17:27
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People that literally cannot understand satire (and troll posts) came in in force.
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Jan 8, 2015 17:28
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MeLKoR posted:Holy poo poo Mans we are largely on the same political side and we agree more often than we disagree but this is a crock of poo poo and you know it. What happened wasn't "a fight between two black guys", you can find two black (or white) guys fighting every day in Lisbon, what happened was a gathering of around 800 teens from slums neighboring the Vasco da Gama mall which then steamed the place. The police forbade more teens from continuing to enter the mall while they were trying to make arrests and disperse the crowd.  that is 100% false. Vasco's security and owners went publicly to say that there was no looting, literally saying that the police story was false. They released the loving tapes and all you see is the first group of four people fleeing after attacking the other back kid in front of Continente, near the shopping carts. Some stupid black kids got into a scuffle when they met outside of Continente, one of them hit the kids with a screwdriver in the back and fled while outside there was a meet, a social gathering, whose main characteristic were being black. Since the police were informed that blacks had a fight inside the center and there were tons of blacks outside, they brought out riot gear and kicked everyone out by force without telling people to disperse peacefully. They then blocked all access to the center to all blacks. The incident ocurred at around 2pm(?), they were still forbidding black people from entering at 9.pm. It was racism, there's no other way to call it anything else. Blacks had a fight inside, there's blacks outside, ergo let's purge all blacks. And a scuffle of blacks turned into the black Visigoths pillaging Rome by the media. You used to post endlessly about how the media is manipulative and almost evil, yet here we are 
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Jan 8, 2015 17:52
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Crossposting:my dad posted:New far right coalition formed in Serbia. It's the usual suspects, Dveri and DSS (the party that used to be headed by Vojislav Koštunica, the guy who beat Milošević in the 2000 elections). They made a proclamation about their policies, it's the classics: anti-EU, pro-Serb-nationalism, pro-family, pro-church, et cetera... I don't think it's going to change anything (they don't have a lot of support), but at least it's nice to see DSS stop pretending they're not fascists at heart.
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Jan 8, 2015 17:54
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There were no "black people not allowed" signs on the doorways because the police phisically blocked all acesses to the center with unidentified police officers who personally decided who could enter or not
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Jan 8, 2015 17:54
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Yeah that's rock bottom
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Jan 8, 2015 18:05
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Mans posted:You used to post endlessly about how the media is manipulative and almost evil, yet here we are Well this is the part where I humbly admit that I based my entire post both in the TV news I saw the day it occurred and a cursory look at some newspaper articles of the time before posting. They were all consistent with each other as far as I could tell but if you could direct me to a news source where I can get the info you mentioned I'd be much obliged. I remember some years ago something like you describe happened with a news story about a gang of blacks doing a mass robbery in Carcavelos beach that turned out to be reported completely out of proportion but that was fishy from the get go.
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Jan 8, 2015 18:05
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I apologize if I'm bringing one of the subjects of that thread here, but I'd like to ask the French regulars in this thread something, since I know very little about everyday stuff in France. Why is everyone talking about the murdered cartoonists as if they were racists? I mean, I understand the fear that this event is going to result in reprisals against Muslims, but I don't see an example of those cartoonists ever encouraging something like that.
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Jan 8, 2015 19:18
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my dad posted:I apologize if I'm bringing one of the subjects of that thread here, but I'd like to ask the French regulars in this thread something, since I know very little about everyday stuff in France. Why is everyone talking about the murdered cartoonists as if they were racists? I mean, I understand the fear that this event is going to result in reprisals against Muslims, but I don't see an example of those cartoonists ever encouraging something like that. I'm Belgian but Hara Kiri (CH's former name) and Charlie Hebdo are popular here as well. They're part of a thing that was way more popular decades ago but imagine them like MAD magazine or The Onion. they make fun of anyone and everyone (amongst others: various presidents, pretty much every major religion, lots of politicians). People are talking about the cartoonists as if they were racists because yeah some of their satire was punching down on radical Islam and what have you. If you just google Charlie Hebdo without any context some of their covers might seem racist but they really were just people who gave 0 shits and if you complained that they were offensive they doubled down in their next issue just to troll you. There's also one image of a black French politician depicted as a monkey but above it is written something that could be translated as "THIS IS WHAT THOSE RIGHT-WINGERS ACTUALLY BELIEVE" because the FN had compared her to a monkey and thrown bananas at her and nonsense like that. Said black woman thanked them for pointing out how absurd FN is. But of course glancing over their material and being offended is easier than seeking context.
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Jan 8, 2015 19:26
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my dad posted:I apologize if I'm bringing one of the subjects of that thread here, but I'd like to ask the French regulars in this thread something, since I know very little about everyday stuff in France. Why is everyone talking about the murdered cartoonists as if they were racists? I mean, I understand the fear that this event is going to result in reprisals against Muslims, but I don't see an example of those cartoonists ever encouraging something like that. The short and sweet is that people believing the CH staff was racist are either stupid or ignorant. Most probably both.
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Jan 8, 2015 19:29
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my dad posted:I apologize if I'm bringing one of the subjects of that thread here, but I'd like to ask the French regulars in this thread something, since I know very little about everyday stuff in France. Why is everyone talking about the murdered cartoonists as if they were racists? I mean, I understand the fear that this event is going to result in reprisals against Muslims, but I don't see an example of those cartoonists ever encouraging something like that. The Danish paper where the other cartoon was posted was legitimately as racist as you can be and people assumed the same situation here.
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Jan 8, 2015 19:32
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