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doctorfrog posted:I'm at the point where I think the podcast itself should be subjected to some really strong criticism, and I'm glad that it is. Not because it's bad or wrong, but because it's not the whole story, and in the style of a TAL episode, it's packaged like it is. What parts of the story are we missing? I mean Jay's account of what happened in particular would have been a very important addition to the podcast, but Koenig explained in detail why that wasn't possible. I haven't really followed the meta of Serial, but I keep seeing claims about evidence that Koenig left out, or that the cell phone records were spotty, but no one seems to be willing to elaborate on this stuff. What is the deal?
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Jan 8, 2015 19:11
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The one thing that really stuck out to me from the beginning is why during all of SK/Adnan's calls the issue of "well if you didn't do it why did Jay frame you?" only comes up a handful of times and is never really pressed. Each time Adnan is like "no idea man this whole thing is hosed up ya know?". That just doesn't seem like a reasonable reaction to me. Though maybe 15 years of distance makes it become one.
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Jan 8, 2015 19:12
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CoffeeBooze posted:What parts of the story are we missing? I mean Jay's account of what happened in particular would have been a very important addition to the podcast, but Koenig explained in detail why that wasn't possible. There's a pretty good discussion of points of view, information, or possible biases that the podcast had in the last couple pages, if not much further back. Just as you haven't followed the 'meta,' I can't really take the time and spell them all out. I probably could have said it better, but the podcast is one particular point of view of the case, and it's both flawed, and not the only view, and in general, since it's the easiest and most entertaining way to digest the case, it's going to be the only way most listeners see it. So it's not that it's outright leaving out evidence, it's that it's not as exhaustive an examination of the case as it first appears. It's just one telling of the story, and it misses other possible tellings, no matter how earnestly it tries to be a whole. It's a podcast about Adnan, a murder, Jay, and it's also about Sarah Koenig's relationship with these things. It's worth criticizing.
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Jan 8, 2015 19:20
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doctorfrog posted:I'm at the point where I think the podcast itself should be subjected to some really strong criticism, and I'm glad that it is. Not because it's bad or wrong, but because it's not the whole story, and in the style of a TAL episode, it's packaged like it is. Well, I'm sorry to shatter your worldview but the majority of reporting does not tell you "the whole story" but rather a certain narrative that the producers decided would be interesting to their audience, because telling "the whole story" would be super confusing and boring at the same time. fullroundaction posted:The one thing that really stuck out to me from the beginning is why during all of SK/Adnan's calls the issue of "well if you didn't do it why did Jay frame you?" only comes up a handful of times and is never really pressed. Each time Adnan is like "no idea man this whole thing is hosed up ya know?". It didn't fit the narrative of the podcast, which was to cast doubt at the state's case against Adnan. Koenig's narration gives us the motive that Jay wanted to frame Adnan because of Stephanie but thats seems very far fetched to me.
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Jan 8, 2015 19:27
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doctorfrog posted:There's a pretty good discussion of points of view, information, or possible biases that the podcast had in the last couple pages, if not much further back. Just as you haven't followed the 'meta,' I can't really take the time and spell them all out. Oh, no doubt there has been plenty of discussion about these things, and that is good. But even in the last page of this thread there were posts claiming that Koening intentionally left out very important evidence. Yet, no where am I seeing what this evidence is. What am I missing here?
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Jan 8, 2015 19:37
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The first thing that has given me a twinge of doubt about Koenig's professionalism or trustworthiness is the diary bit. Is that true? What the heck? Edit: the bit about her leaving out Hae's mention of Adnan's possessiveness
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Jan 8, 2015 19:50
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GaussianCopula posted:Well, I'm sorry to shatter your worldview but the majority of reporting does not tell you "the whole story" but rather a certain narrative that the producers decided would be interesting to their audience, because telling "the whole story" would be super confusing and boring at the same time. This x1000.
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Jan 8, 2015 20:00
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CoffeeBooze posted:there were posts claiming that Koening intentionally left out very important evidence. Yet, no where am I seeing what this evidence is. What am I missing here? I didn't say that. What I said was: quote:But Koenig isn't the only one crafting a narrative now and - with some of the facts that have recently come to light - it's not too difficult to see why some listeners have changed their mind on his guilt. What I meant, for example, was: It's going to sound minor, but for me the fact that the windshield wiper controller was broken off inside of Hae's car is HUGE because 1) it indicates violence - most likely her murder - occurred to Hae inside of her car which means that b) she probably knew her murderer pretty well (to allow him into her car in the first place). I'm not saying this convicts Adnan alone - I'm not sure any single piece of evidence does - just that it seems to be a crucial piece of physical evidence that establishes the likely place of Hae's murder - if not the time - and yet Koenig never mentions it. And I think that she doesn't mention it because - in conjunction with the multiple witnesses who state that Adnan was looking for a ride with Hae that day - it looks really, really, bad for him. It undermines the narrative tension she tries to create between his guilt versus his innocence, and also rules out the Innocent Project's red herring of a serial killer.
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Jan 8, 2015 20:04
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GaussianCopula posted:Well, I'm sorry to shatter your worldview but the majority of reporting does not tell you "the whole story" but rather a certain narrative that the producers decided would be interesting to their audience, because telling "the whole story" would be super confusing and boring at the same time.
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Jan 8, 2015 20:15
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Tuxedo Jack posted:I don't get how anyone can claim Adnan is innocent, after the stuff about his Imam having to plead the fifth. I can see why people would say the evidence wasn't enough to prove anything beyond a "reasonable" doubt, but do people really continue to advocate for his complete innocence? I can't comprehend that. My main issue is basically that Jay's story is ridiculous on so many levels. The most ridiculous one being that Adnan would let himself be browbeaten into giving both his car and his mobile phone to his dealer, especially if he is planning to kill his ex girlfriend later in the day. That's just crazy. From him calling Jay at Best Buy to him burying Hae so badly that a random streaker is able to see her body, there is just something not right, and I can't explain it away with Jay just wanting to protect his friends. Raar_Im_A_Dinosaur posted:The first thing that has given me a twinge of doubt about Koenig's professionalism or trustworthiness is the diary bit. Is that true? What the heck? I agree that Koenig ignoring how unhinged Adnan comes off in Hae's diary is kind of shady. It doesn't prove that Adnan did it or anything, but she should probably have mentioned it. Shitshow posted:I didn't say that. What I said was: You did initially say that: Shitshow posted:Koenig has left some very important pieces of evidence out but I think your argument is decent enough. Yes, Hae probably knew the murderer, and Adnan gave his car to a dealer for no good reason. How he was able to plan all this in advance is a different story, though. If I remember correctly, Hae even refused to take him with her. And More fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Jan 8, 2015 |
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Jan 8, 2015 20:18
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What I'm curious about now is after 15 years Adnan stills proclaims his innocence. What does he have to lose by saying yeah I really did it? He's had several appeals denied now and I doubt that the Innocent Project is going to turn up anything new. I also feel confident that he most likely did it, and I think the state got lucky being able to convict him with the evidence that they had.
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Jan 8, 2015 20:24
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calandryll posted:What I'm curious about now is after 15 years Adnan stills proclaims his innocence. What does he have to lose by saying yeah I really did it? He's had several appeals denied now and I doubt that the Innocent Project is going to turn up anything new. I also feel confident that he most likely did it, and I think the state got lucky being able to convict him with the evidence that they had. His family is invested in it and has spent tons of money on his defense and appeals
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Jan 8, 2015 20:26
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Shitshow posted:I didn't say that. What I said was: It was actually this statement I was referring too: Shitshow posted:I agree on the first point but would argue on the second. I think Koenig has left some very important pieces of evidence out of the podcast for the sake of narrative tension, so I'm not sure how great an example it really is for laypeople. Thanks for the bit about the broken windshield wiper controller. That is exactly the type of thing I felt like I am missing when people discuss things left out of the podcast. In a case like this one where the evidence is hardly overwhelming, small bits like that add up. I am not trying to call anyone out or anything like that. I just am not clear on what this other evidence is since there seems to be a whole lot of speculation about the case. Sorting out what is actually factual, and what is a third hand account as told by some weirdo on Reddit who is repeating what his friend's, cousin's favorite baseball player who went to Adnan's schools aid 15 years after the fact can be difficult.
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Jan 8, 2015 20:29
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African AIDS cum posted:His family is invested in it and has spent tons of money on his defense and appeals Yeah, he can only lose by admitting to it now. Currently, his family still thinks that he has been framed.
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Jan 8, 2015 20:31
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And More posted:Yeah, he can only lose by admitting to it now. Currently, his family still thinks that he has been framed. Not only his family but also his community. Additionally I'm not 100% sure that Adnan believes he did it, even though I'm sure he did do it. His brain might have blocked out the memory or after 15 years of lying he believes his own BS. I'm also no expert on the exact process of getting out of prison with a life sentence. I know he has to confess and stuff but I guess that he has to stay longer than 15 years in prison anyway, so he might not want to come clean until 20 years or so after the fact.
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Jan 8, 2015 20:49
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doctorfrog posted:This is the internet, there's always someone who believes in something you can't believe they believe. Where is the stuff about Adnan's imam pleading the fifth? I haven't been doing much internet sleuthing, but I'd love to check that out.
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Jan 8, 2015 21:01
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GaussianCopula posted:Not only his family but also his community. Additionally I'm not 100% sure that Adnan believes he did it, even though I'm sure he did do it. His brain might have blocked out the memory or after 15 years of lying he believes his own BS. I'm also no expert on the exact process of getting out of prison with a life sentence. I know he has to confess and stuff but I guess that he has to stay longer than 15 years in prison anyway, so he might not want to come clean until 20 years or so after the fact. Early on in the podcast, they had a criminal psychologist on who said that they have caught people standing over a dead body with a knife in hand and had them deny, deny, deny. They seem to truly believe they did not commit the crime they are accused of, even when caught red-handed. They did refer to it as a psychosis of sorts - though I believe they the shrink mentioned people typically snap out of it. Perhaps it is a bit of that mixed with the guilt that he feels regarding his family defending him.
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Jan 8, 2015 21:02
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Euthyphro posted:Where is the stuff about Adnan's imam pleading the fifth? I haven't been doing much internet sleuthing, but I'd love to check that out. I believe it's from the second part of the interview with Jay. He claims there was a spiritual leader who didn't want to incriminate himself by testifying. Jay suggests that Adnan might have confessed to this man. He doesn't have any proof of this, though. The interviewer certainly didn't ask the prosecutor about it, as far as I can remember.
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Jan 8, 2015 21:13
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Euthyphro posted:Where is the stuff about Adnan's imam pleading the fifth? I haven't been doing much internet sleuthing, but I'd love to check that out.
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Jan 8, 2015 21:14
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This guy Bilal was a Sunday school teacher at the masjid. He was friendly with Adnan and was the official account holder for Adnan's cell phone because Adnan was underage. When Bilal was called in to testify at the grand jury he retained Cristina Gutierrez as his attorney (before Adnan ever employed her) and tried to plead the fifth, but his attempt to plead the fifth was denied by the state, because they said he wasn't being targeted with any charges. Also, the claim that Adnan stole from the mosque first came from a Reddit poster that Adnan's brother accused of being Bilal. Adnan's brother leveling molestation charges against Bilal, and saying he might have been the anonymous caller: http://i.imgur.com/47dxgli.png Bilal's waiver allowing Cristina Gutierrez to represent Adnan after previously representing Bilal: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByTc5P7odcLHNmJnTlAyeW93bGM/view Fast Luck fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Jan 8, 2015 |
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Jan 8, 2015 22:56
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African AIDS cum posted:Wrong Dude probably killed his girlfriend, but this isn't very good evidence of it, and it's REAL shady of a prosecutor to suggest that it is. This is just good defense-lawyering. You generally have to disclose any alibi witnesses in advance of trial - like, far enough in advance that your trial strategy isn't fully formed. Any good defense lawyer would err on the side of tossing EVERYONE who might even conceivably have something helpful to say on the list, so that the option to call them remains open.
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Jan 8, 2015 23:06
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A Tasteful Nude posted:Dude probably killed his girlfriend, but this isn't very good evidence of it, and it's REAL shady of a prosecutor to suggest that it is. This is just good defense-lawyering. You generally have to disclose any alibi witnesses in advance of trial - like, far enough in advance that your trial strategy isn't fully formed. Any good defense lawyer would err on the side of tossing EVERYONE who might even conceivably have something helpful to say on the list, so that the option to call them remains open. This doesn't make sense as a reply to my post. I was referencing a specific point he made about the cell phone evidence being fed to Jay being untrue.
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Jan 8, 2015 23:10
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African AIDS cum posted:This doesn't make sense as a reply to my post. I was referencing a specific point he made about the cell phone evidence being fed to Jay being untrue. African AIDS cum posted:Wrong I'm fairly sure you do actually talk about the 80 witnesses here. Anyway, the prosecutor claiming that the police did not influence the witness is also not very surprising. It would be weirder if he didn't.
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Jan 9, 2015 00:08
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And More posted:I'm fairly sure you do actually talk about the 80 witnesses here. ... Yes, to show that the defense considered the cell phone evidence particularly credible, and, if as some allege here, it had just been fed to Jay by the cops that wouldn't have happened.
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Jan 9, 2015 00:51
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But that's kind of my point: the witness list dosn't show that the defense believed cell phone records to be credible. Competent defense counsel would submit a massive list of potential alibi witnesses just in case, perhaps even before interviewing those individuals. The prosecutor cannot possibly know that cell phone records CAUSED defense counsel not to call named, potential witnesses at trial - in fact, as an attorney doing criminal work, he should be well aware that such a list is essentially meaningless, because defendants have to throw everything against the wall, regardless of their actual, final trial strategy.
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Jan 9, 2015 01:01
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Interesting that 80 people declined to commit perjury all of a sudden
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Jan 9, 2015 01:04
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I am not exactly astonished that a prosecutor went on the record saying that he thought he did his job correctly. Honestly, I think the question of whether Adnan is really really guilty of murder or not is probably the least interesting thing to come out of Serial, mostly because there's no way, short of a confession (by Adnan or by someone else) or access to a time machine, that it will ever be resolved. I am as capable of speculation and conjecture and "this narrative is what makes sense to me" as anyone, and my speculations are as useful as anyone's (i.e. zilcho). But for all that I think it's likely that Adnan killed Hae (I do not think it's likely at all that he's guilty of premeditated murder), I don't know for a fact whether he did or not and neither do you. The questions that I think are far more interesting are those surrounding what this look at a "routine murder investigation" in Baltimore in 1999 tells us about the justice system, and those surrounding the nature of Serial itself as a work of journalism, as an entertainment piece, as a cultural artifact, or whatever you care to call it.
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Jan 9, 2015 01:10
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docbeard posted:I am not exactly astonished that a prosecutor went on the record saying that he thought he did his job correctly. Yeah, it continues to surprise me that people seem to expect the police-and-courts side of this thing to do anything but flatly assert they were right and correct and optionally (but likely) be really condescending about criticism. I don't know what think about Bilal trying to plead the 5th; I remember reading on the subreddit someone indicating that his actual intent was something like clergy-penitent privilege but I have no idea if that's accurate or not. the yeti fucked around with this message at 02:34 on Jan 9, 2015 |
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Jan 9, 2015 02:29
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African AIDS cum posted:Interesting that 80 people declined to commit perjury all of a sudden You're not understanding. The people on that list didn't "decline" to do anything. They likely didn't even know they were on a list. In advance of trial, defense counsel has to list anyone they might use to provide an alibi. There is no penalty for NOT calling someone you put on the list, but if they're not on the list, they will likely be barred from testifying. So you put down any names you can think of, and then later, when the deadline has passed and you have more time, call them up and find out if their testimony will be helpful. This prosecutor saw lists like this everyday, and knows full well that they are NOT a declaration of one's actual, trial strategy. In fact, a defense lawyer might provide such a list explicitly intending NOT to call witnesses therein, to conceal their true trial strategy from the State. His declaration that "they didn't call the witnesses on the list, which proves the witnesses were going to lie " is utterly false, and he knows it. I note also that their intended testimony was "AS had a general practice of being at mosque at such and such a time." It would be nearly impossible to perjure yourself saying something like that - it's just a weak alibi. Nonetheless, it would be malpractice NOT to preserve that defense by taking 10 minutes to write a letter with a bunch of names, just in case.
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Jan 9, 2015 04:40
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he wasnt at mosque because he was busy jangling haes noodle
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Jan 9, 2015 05:04
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Yeah, probably - but it's really unethical (or at the very least intentionally misleading) for a prosecutor to tell a magazine that a mandatory disclosure witness list proves it I understand why he's doing it - the internet is up in arms saying he railroaded some kid, when his case probably wasn't even the shoddiest murder conviction in Baltimore that week. But he knows he's being misleading about this, and this journalist should have caught it. A Tasteful Nude fucked around with this message at 05:14 on Jan 9, 2015 |
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Jan 9, 2015 05:09
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Serial have released a statement to state that they actually tried to contact Ulrick numerous times at numerous places (Starting back early last year) but he never once returned their call. The Intercept, or more specifically NVC seem happy to dismiss them, which is an odd stance to take (She also stated on her twitter that she verified Ulrick's claims, but I'm not sure how you verify the absence of phone calls). But then despite being handed gold in the form of interviews with some key people, they've largely done a terrible job. It doesn't help that they've decided that any attacks against their pieces are sexist, but weirdly they're fine with slinging mud at the female staff of Serial. DrVenkman fucked around with this message at 10:56 on Jan 9, 2015 |
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Jan 9, 2015 10:50
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It seems pretty easy to throw stones at the Serial crew right now, because SK ran a fairly biased account in the show, and "backed the wrong horse" through til the end. I still think the show was highly entertaining, and more importantly, it has integrity despite its bias. I believe SK et al tried to reach the Prosecutor, and I believe they probably tried to approach Jay as non-aggressively as possible, though when you take a stance (as I believe she did in the early episodes, even if she didn't outright say it) that a convicted murderer was unjustly imprisoned, you have to be prepared for the backlash when you essentially corroborate his guilt through your independent investigation, while trying to stay on the center line. Serial was entertaining, but deeply flawed. I liked it either way, both while I was listening, and now after the dust has settled, some.
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Jan 9, 2015 15:19
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Tuxedo Jack posted:It seems pretty easy to throw stones at the Serial crew right now, because SK ran a fairly biased account in the show, and "backed the wrong horse" through til the end. I think that Koenig struggling with the fact that someone she thought was innocent could very well be guilty was just part of the narrative. She's an audience surrogate after all and she's taking the journey that I think the average person does while listening to Serial. It's not that biased when you poke a lot of holes in your guy's story, openly question him and then have someone basically say that either he did it or he's just the world's unluckiest person. I think by the end she sums it up pretty well: She can't say with any certainty that he's innocent because she doesn't know. But based on the evidence presented I think it's hard to say that beyond a shadow of a doubt Adnan is guilty. For my part I think he probably is, but that he didn't act alone. The problem with the stuff coming out now is that it's trying really hard to discredit Koenig. It's fine if you want to uncover stuff that Serial couldn't. There's no issue with that, but it's bad journalism to offer a soft interview to Jay or to Ulrick and then run an op-ed basically saying "See! Koenig and everyone who works at Serial are terrible!". It's even worse when they toss aside some legitimate complaints about their fact checking and and reporting as 'sexism'.
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Jan 9, 2015 15:28
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DrVenkman posted:The problem with the stuff coming out now is that it's trying really hard to discredit Koenig. It's fine if you want to uncover stuff that Serial couldn't. There's no issue with that, but it's bad journalism to offer a soft interview to Jay or to Ulrick and then run an op-ed basically saying "See! Koenig and everyone who works at Serial are terrible!". It's even worse when they toss aside some legitimate complaints about their fact checking and and reporting as 'sexism'. But who cares about all of this? Serial's entire story was basically "hey guys these people are hella shady check this out" so here they come to defend themselves and lob some poo poo back serial's way. Big deal. Let reddit ruin themselves over this petty bullshit.
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Jan 9, 2015 16:56
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Dear Sergio posted:But who cares about all of this? Serial's entire story was basically "hey guys these people are hella shady check this out" so here they come to defend themselves and lob some poo poo back serial's way. Big deal. Let reddit ruin themselves over this petty bullshit. Because it provides another narrative which takes focus away from the case and instead places it on the Serial podcast and Sarah Koenig instead. And that story is picking up traction from other sites because of the site aggressively pursuing the interviews, seemingly not to shed more light on the case, but to deliberately discredit Serial (The whole tone is not 'Give us your perspective' and more 'Serial said this, are you going to stand for that?' I can understand that from the participants, but not from the author. Not to mention their seeming utter lack of fact checking). It's ultimately damaging because it's resorting to mud-slinging.
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Jan 9, 2015 17:25
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If anything, I hope all the DNA testing and increase scrutiny shows that someone else was involved in the murder of Hae. I find it almost impossible that Adnan was not involved, but I also find it almost impossible that he did it alone with no help to actually plan and do the deed. Adnan may belong in prison but not on the case presented, and there absolutely should be someone else in prison over this too. If it was Jay, it was Jay. If it was some third party likely known to Jay AND Adnan, then get them. But the states case doesn't make enough of a case to put him in jail in my opinion. I Feel like all this "Serial is bad" stuff from these new sites are muddying the waters up on this.
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Jan 9, 2015 17:44
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Jastiger posted:If anything, I hope all the DNA testing and increase scrutiny shows that someone else was involved in the murder of Hae. I find it almost impossible that Adnan was not involved, but I also find it almost impossible that he did it alone with no help to actually plan and do the deed. Adnan may belong in prison but not on the case presented, and there absolutely should be someone else in prison over this too. If it was Jay, it was Jay. If it was some third party likely known to Jay AND Adnan, then get them. But the states case doesn't make enough of a case to put him in jail in my opinion. It's just easy click bait, that's all. They don't care about the truth, they care about advertising money
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Jan 9, 2015 18:58
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Drunk Tomato posted:It's just easy click bait, that's all. They don't care about the truth, they care about advertising money And how are you capable of peering deep into their hearts and reading their most secret motives? The Intercept filled in a few enormous gaps in Serial's reporting by interviewing the state's star witness and the prosecutor. Whether or not it hurt Sarah Koenig's feelings or Natasha Vargas-Cooper is a big meanie is petty melodrama that has nothing to do with anything. Who gives a poo poo. Orkin Mang fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Jan 9, 2015 |
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Jan 9, 2015 22:46
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Orkin Mang posted:And how are you capable of peering deep into their hearts and reading their most secret motives? The Intercept filled in a few enormous gaps in Serial's reporting by interviewing the state's star witness and the prosecutor. Whether or not it hurt Sarah Koenig's feelings or Natasha Vargas-Cooper is a big meanie is petty melodrama that has nothing to do with anything. Who gives a poo poo. Exactly. I guess I just look at it as Serial was fun to listen to and now it's over. We can move on with our lives now. Redditors digging through transcripts like they're going to find some key piece of whatever they're looking for to prove that their precious baby Adnan didn't do it aren't going to find anything so let's wrap it up.
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Jan 10, 2015 00:32
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