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Dr. Killjoy posted:Okay, from what I recall about the "controversy" with the rape thing is that Rolling Stone pumped out an article about the experiences of one woman who said she was in a gangrape, some conservative blogger made a concern-trolling critique of the article, and all right wingers think the story was faked now as a result? Or at least they did so a month ago when people actually cared about the story - which assuming the two week delay still holds true means Tinsley started writing these even when noone was talking about it. You really didn't follow the case at all if that's your recollection of it. There's a lot more to it than that.
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Jan 9, 2015 09:24
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Neither of these are nearly as offensive as I'd have expected if you had told me the general setup for them and the reason behind them. Are Lester and JRROSE! turning inoffensive... wait, I forgot yesterday's Lester, okay, stopped clock and all that.
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Jan 9, 2015 09:27
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JRROSE! isn't that offensive most of the time. He just loves puns!
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Jan 9, 2015 09:29
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Apple Pie Hubbub posted:
 ". The edit actually made it even worse somehow. I am impressed McCoy, you constantly one up your poo poo factor.
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Jan 9, 2015 09:32
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I'm not a gun nut by any stretch but is there any reason all these cartoonists are drawing the Charlie Hedbo gunmen/murderers/ninjas/racist arab caricatures with guns that look a bit like M16s rather than the Kalashnikovs and shotguns they actually used? E: On closer inspection by "all these" I guess I mean McCoy, Lester and JRRRRRRRose so I guess I know the answer to that, NVM Also late to the party here but this is as good a combination of racist and dumb as gently caress as is possible in the medium of cartooning. Some good strong contenders for the worst cartoon of the year right out of the gate. Saint Isaias Boner fucked around with this message at 09:38 on Jan 9, 2015 |
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Jan 9, 2015 09:34
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Funny papers. For children. Next to Garfield.
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Jan 9, 2015 09:35
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Apple Pie Hubbub posted:
He also changed the dude's headgear.
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Jan 9, 2015 09:39
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voltroon posted:For example, take the "1000 lashes if you don't laugh" cover. Yes, take that one for example. That Muslim character looks just like their Jesus, and it's actually full of life, humorous joy and character in ways that McCoys' / Lester's aren't. Why the hell should they replace it with something deliberately lifeless to "broaden their appeal", aka do the exact opposite of what they are trying to do? Pictured: The ultimate satirical caricature with broad appeal 
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Jan 9, 2015 09:42
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tacodaemon posted:
Made him shorter by removing the neck, presumably to make him a bit more bestial, if the fangs and crazy eyes weren't enough.
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Jan 9, 2015 09:42
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steinrokkan posted:Yes, take that one for example. That Muslim character looks just like their Jesus, and it's actually full of life, humorous joy and character in ways that McCoys' / Lester's aren't. Why the hell should they replace it with something deliberately lifeless to "broaden their appeal", aka do the exact opposite of what they are trying to do? It's a straight up racist caricature of an Arab. Big hook nose, scraggly beard, turban. I don't understand how it's funny in any way, or how satirising the appearance and religious beliefs of a powerless minority that the French have systematically treated like poo poo is meant to be a source of amusement. My baby laughed at your ultimate caricature though so the last bit of your post might be correct.
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Jan 9, 2015 09:51
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VitalSigns posted:Pretty sure it's a reference to the Supreme Court's bizarre refusal to allow cameras at oral arguments. My grandpappy had to wait for the official transcripts, and cragnabbit you can too! The audio recordings are available almost immediately. And given what happens to courtrooms when cameras show up, do you really thing SCOTUS or the country would be better for them? They are the only branch of government that has to justify what it decides, they already are the most transparent branch of government and cameras aren't going to improve that. It's one of the very rare times I actually agree with Sculia.
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Jan 9, 2015 09:54
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Dr. Killjoy posted:We don't even have to look at Kelly to find satire that's very dependent on cultural context and the ability for the audience to comprehend the tone, I mean look at this disgustingly racist dreck from goons of all people: 
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Jan 9, 2015 09:59
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by the way did you know the webcomics thread was back in P/C? http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3689737
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Jan 9, 2015 10:01
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Cpt.Americant posted:The audio recordings are available almost immediately. And given what happens to courtrooms when cameras show up, do you really thing SCOTUS or the country would be better for them? Yes? I want the pure Scalia scowls! I want to see him sweat as he imagines man-on-man matrimonial action! Oh you asked if the country would be better off...I dunno.  Gilganixon posted:It's a straight up racist caricature of an Arab. Big hook nose, scraggly beard, turban. I don't understand how it's funny in any way, or how satirising the appearance and religious beliefs of a powerless minority that the French have systematically treated like poo poo is meant to be a source of amusement. My baby laughed at your ultimate caricature though so the last bit of your post might be correct. Well, I don't entirely disagree with you, but... 
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Jan 9, 2015 10:04
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VitalSigns posted:Well, I don't entirely disagree with you, but... actually this one is okay because Kelly is One Of The Good Ones
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Jan 9, 2015 10:22
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Kurtofan posted:by the way did you know the webcomics thread was back in P/C? http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3689737 I had no idea. You're a saint!
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Jan 9, 2015 10:24
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VitalSigns posted:
Yes context etc (I've drawn some pretty racist depictions of Obama and so on) but if Charlie Hedbo was skewering French conceptions of Arabs with deliberately racist portrayals then they did quite a lot of it. Anyway this has been done to death, sorry for going on about it again.
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Jan 9, 2015 10:44
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VitalSigns posted:Well, I don't entirely disagree with you, but...  ) that showed a hypothetical timeline where the Borg took over the Earth, and they had Borged Mt. Rushmore. And my first thought was, why create giant Borg implants to place on top of nonliving stone? Why would the Borg even care about those statues at all?
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Jan 9, 2015 10:56
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The Charlie Hebdo shooters have been cornered by police. They may have a hostage. It'll possibly all be over by the time the US wakes up.
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Jan 9, 2015 11:12
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Zemyla posted:I'm reminded of a picture from the Star Trek RPG ( Because the Borg are hard to write for. The idea of a single living entity consisting of multiple physical bodies over multiple locations all fused with machine? Treating multiple individuals the way a body treats multiple cells, none with their own identity but all still living in their own right? Nah.. Much easier to just make them conquering space zombies that just want to stick metal in everything. That way there's also nothing to feel bad when we blast them! I blame voyager.
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Jan 9, 2015 11:15
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Zemyla posted:I'm reminded of a picture from the Star Trek RPG ( Obviously they'd never come across giant white dudes faces blasted into a mountain side, so they added that technological distinctiveness to their own. They ever come across a species weak to giant stationary busts, the Borg will be ready.
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Jan 9, 2015 11:17
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Zemyla posted:I'm reminded of a picture from the Star Trek RPG ( Maybe the Borg have a really weird sense of humor and decided to dress up mount Rushmore for shits and giggles. Even villainous hiveminds aren't serious all the time.
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Jan 9, 2015 11:40
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steinrokkan posted:Yes, take that one for example. That Muslim character looks just like their Jesus, and it's actually full of life, humorous joy and character in ways that McCoys' / Lester's aren't. Why the hell should they replace it with something deliberately lifeless to "broaden their appeal", aka do the exact opposite of what they are trying to do? Are you... Ted Rall? 
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Jan 9, 2015 11:44
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 @fart
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Jan 9, 2015 11:49
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She should have simply talked to us instead of wigging out, we seem to have things in common.
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Jan 9, 2015 11:51
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Vulpes Vvardenfell posted:Are you... Ted Rall? Why are you asking, Adolf? 
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Jan 9, 2015 11:53
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So. As I promised a few pages ago, here is a page-by-page detail of what a Charlie Hebdo issue generally contains. I took lovely pictures of the issue that came out on the day of the attack. Don't diss the tablecloth. Page 1. Charlie Hebdo has had "irresponsible newspaper" as a subheading ever since their offices were firebombed, and some other journalists commented by saying that publishing caricatures was not a responsible thing to do. The front page is almost always a single satirical image.  Context: Depicted here is Michel Houellebecq, a very well-known and recognized French writer who recenlty published a pretty racist book in which a Muslim becomes President in 2022, defeating Marine Le Pen, and immediately proceeds to legalize polygamy and other such things. Houellebecq has the general appearance of a hobo, he is known as a rather heavy drinker and smoker, and has poo poo teeth. Many cartoons in this week's issue will be about Houellebecq, so expect hobo and dirty old man jokes. Translation: "Magus Houellebecq's predictions" "In 2015 I'll lose my teeth...", "In 2022, I'll do the ramadan!" Cartoonist: Luz. He's alive. In the bottom left corner, an ad for a Charlie Hebdo publication: "The true story of Baby Jesus", "the story according to the Gospel, the Apocrypha, and other texts". By cartoonist Riss, who is still alive. Yes, that's Jesus coming out of Mary. They published a similar book last year about the true story of prophet Muhammad. Page 2. Classically, the second page is a fully-illustrated page on the topic of the front page.  Context: Houellebecq. Partial translation: Basically this page makes fun of Houellebecq's predictions, and explains how he makes his predictions. The title is: "My prophecies for the 21st Century by Magus Houellebecq". Highlights include: him reading the future in suspicious stains in your underwear, winomancy, and snorting palm lines. The predictions are mostly nonsensical. On the left, a horoscope renamed "hardonscope" and dick jokes. Mostly. Cartoonist: Luz again. Page 3. In the center, an editorial. The writer changes every week, this week's was Bernard Maris and his editorial is about the idiocy of claiming that moral systems can only be derived from religion. He was killed in the attack.  Three comics on the left: 1) "Jean-Jacques Goldman [a 1990's singer, retired since the early 2000's] is once again the favority celebrity of the French" "He's so discreet! Always so even-tempered." By Catherine Meurisse, alive. 2) "Ethics reminder" "Roma babies should be deported alive, not dead". The character is Manuel Valls, the French Prime Minister. The context is that Roma babies have recently died because of the cold, and a French mayor refused to have one of them buried in his town. Valls' policy against Roma has not been significantly different from Sarkozy's. By Charb, who was the publication director of Charlie Hebdo, and was specifically targeted in the attack and is now dead. 3) "Valls, man of the year in Spain (El Mundo)" Hollande shakes Valls' hand. "- Congrats, hopefully this will last until 2017 [the date of the next presidential election]". By Honoré, killed in the attack. On the right, a recap of François Hollande's new year speech by Coco, alive. Page 4. Page 4 generally has opinion pieces and columns, and short comments on stuff that has happened in the pas week.  Comic on the top: "New York: two policemen executed as a reprisal for the assassinaton of two African-Americans" "I don't give a gently caress, they weren't white!" By Tignous, killed in the attack. Bottom left: "UMP-FN [right-wing and far right parties in France] - Yay to the friendship between the elites, against the people!" - Charb, dead. Bottom center: "Optimistic in 2015" "Hooray" (That's Hollande). - Honoré, dead. Bottom right: the pun can't be translated. There's a tradition to eat king cake ("Galette des Rois") in early January - it's an almond cake in which there is a porcelain charm, and the person who finds the charm is crowned king. Here, The "Galette des Rois" has become a "Galette des Roms [Roma]", and the guy eating it has found the charm - a dead Roma baby. "poo poo, I'm the one who got the charm!". By Riss, alive. Page 5.  Three weekly columns. One about the proceedings of justice in France, by Sigolène Vinson, held at gunpoint but spared because she was a woman. One called "This week's heretic" and is about people who are imprisonned of murdered because of heresy, apostasy, atheism, or behavior unsanctioned by religious authorities. By Zineb El Rhazoui, alive. The third one is editor-in-chief Gérard Biard's editorial. He's alive, as he was in the UK that day. Comics in the center are all by Cabu, probably the most well-known of all the cartoonists in Charlie Hebdo. He drew for a few newspapers, and had non political comics as well back in the day. Killed in the attack. Top: "Ah, that's not a left-wing dog". Hollande recently got a dog. In the cartoon, the dog is bringing him Le Figaro, a right-wing newspaper. Center: Hollande - "How many times have I been quoted in end--the-year TV bloopers?" Valls - "430 times for you. Merely 23 times for me." Bottom: "Back in the day, people used to invite a pauper for the end of the year celebrations..." "...now, the paupers invite themselves!" These people are recurring characters fro Cabu's work, from right to left the classic old-school beauf, his wife, and their friend Adjutant Kronembourg from the military who is named after a brand of beer. Page 6. Weekly column about the economy (sometimes literature) by Bernard Maris, dead, illustrated by cartoons by Honoré, dead. Bernard Maris was a great mind and of all the people who died, I think it's him I'll miss most. Bottom, a weekly column about sciences by Antonio Fischetti, alive.  Left: "Mergers and acquisitions have brought in 2740 billion euros all around the world (best year since 2007). Lafarge merges with Holcim [both are cement producers]. CEO Bruno Lafont [pictured] has increased the holding's value to 32 billion euros." "- Concrete results for cement makers [that's me making the pun understandable in English]. Center: "31,4 billion euros over 6 years, that's the military's budget. In order to balance the budget, [minister] Le Drian [pictured] wants to sell the equipment, then rent it. Estimated returns, €2,2 billion (?)" "- For the armored vehicles, maybe we could carpool..." Right: "€240b, that's Greece's debt. [IMF director] Lagarde [pictured] suspends the IMF's funding as elections are called ahead of time." "- Alexis Tsipras is not Tapie [a French businessman who benefited from Lagarde's favors when she was minister in France]. He won't get any gifts from me." Bottom: "Fish or chicken, Captain?" "I reckon it's gonna be fish for everyone." By Riss, alive. Illustration for the bottom article about human mistakes in plane crashes. Page 7. On the left, a weekly column by Patrick Pelloux about the French health system and hospitals. He's a renowned emergency medical doctor, and he's alive, thank god. Other columns. Cartoons on the right.  1) "The SNCF [French national railway company] raises its prices - the train is only for the rich" "the what?" - Catherine Meurisse, alive. 2) "A Roma baby won't be buried" "except if he's accompanied by his parents!" - Babouse, alive. 3) "Still no terrorist attacks in France" "Wait!" "We still have until the end of january to wish people a happy new year" - Charb, dead. Holy poo poo, though. 4) "Why did a mayor not allow the burial of a Roma baby?" "Because it would attract the ones who are alive. Pages 8 and 9.   The central spread can either be a massive illustration like the one we had on page 2, or some sort of report on something - from Kurdish freedom fighters to the relationship between the French left-wing politicians and money (which is this week's topic). Cartoons illustrate the contents. On page 8, "Yeah, one can be left-wing and have a healthy relationship with money". Examples include Judas giving his 30 silver pieces to a leprosy charity, Stalin buying gulags with money from his savings account, Dominique Strauss-Kahn depositing all his savings at a sperm bank, and Beregovoy [a French socialist prime minister who commited suicide in the 90's] getting a fixed-rated 0% loan to buy his own coffin. By Riss, alive. On page 9, "The potential left-wing minister's malediction". by Charb, dead. The guy gets a call from the President who offers to make him a minister. At the end of the call, he realizes that he's going to have to publish a list of his property, and since he's left-wing, he doesn't want to look rich, otherwise he'll be seen as a "bougie gently caress". So he breaks a €5000 vase, turns his Afghan Hound into a Yorkshire, transfers his estate to his wife, divorces because she is too good-looking and marries her mother instead, and in the end, the president calls him again to tell him that the minister job was actually given to a right-wing millionaire banker [that's a jab at Emmanuel Macron, the current Minister of the Economy]. By Charb, dead. Page 10. International news, short news articles.  An article about slavery and slave revolts in Mauritania, Cartoon by Catherine Meurisse, alive. Bottom left: "More persecutions against homosexuals in Egypt" "Another twisted poofter that brings shame on our country!" Charb, dead. Bottom, center: "New Years Wishes. Al-Baghdadi as well." "...and above all, good health!". Honoré, dead. Bottom right: "Without any snow, the mountains are less glamorous" "And to think that a year ago Schumacher [F1 pilot, was in a skiing acident] hit on me!" [pretty proud that I could convey about the same pun as the original French]. Foolz, alive. Page 11.  Left, a regular strip by Catherine Meurisse, "Scenes from hormonal life", a joke about a dude who complains to his mistress about joint custody of his kid. Center, a weekly not systematically erotic cartoon by Wolinski, killed in the attack. This one illustrates couples he saw on a dyke in La Havana, Cuba. "I've been to Cuba on 12 different unforgettable occasions between 1970 and 2009. I dream about going back there some day, to drink rum, smoke a cigar and dance with pretty Cuban girls." On the right, a regular column by psychiatrist Elsa Cayat (killed in the attack as well, contrary to what I said at first) - she tells about a patient's annoyance about Christmas and its rituals, its injunctions, and about her job as a psychiatrist. Page 12. Culture pages.  Left, a weekly strip by Luz, alive, called "Stouf the Skin[head]". Notice the SS. It stars a particularly weak and cowardly far-right nationalist who hangs around with skinheads. In this week's episode, far-right columnist Eric Zemmour [the short blue-eyed guy] is invited to dinner with Stouf and his everpresent mother. They have prepared lobster, and as one of them pinches his nose Zemmour manages to find a link between the lobsters and Muslims who are ruining France. On the right, old-school non-political cartoons from the 1950's by French cartoonist Dubout. Center bottom, the comic bu Charb illustrates an article about Kalachnikov's foray into hunting and shooting clothes. Page 13. Weekly column about radio on the left by Philippe Lançon, severely wounded, and on the right, a weekly column about literature by Bernard Maris, dead (this week, about Houellebecq's book, which Maris actually found good, absurd premise notwithstanding).  Center, weekly comics by Willem, a Dutch cartoonist (alive). "Kids love jihad" "Nice place you got here" "Precocious kiddo. - His father's portrait". Center bottom, Willem again, stuff about art expositions, books, comic books, theatre, and so on. Page 14. On the left, a weekly animal rights column . In the center, Charb's weekly editorial in which he complains about something or someone. This week, eyeglass frames. Sometimes silly, sometimes thought-provoking.  Bottom, the weekly strip "Maurice and Patapon", the (generally scatological) adventures of a dog and a cat. Page 15. Sometimes an article, soetimes a debate, sometimes a full page comic.  This week, a debate about the existence of Jesus. Comics by Tignous (killed in the attack) picturing Jesus' first letter to Santa Claus (it's authentic, they also have the envelope with the date, as attested to by postmark), the authentic skull of baby Jesus, found in Bethleem, and his cell phone. Page 16. "The front pages you didn't have to suffer", a weekly collection of alternate front pages for the magazine. The column on the right is a series of one-sentence news items, followed by one-liners.  Top left, Houellebecq on Marine Le Pen's knees. She tells him he'll be her Malraux, the famous Minister of Culture for De Gaulle. Cabu, dead. Under, "Has Houellebecq converted to Islam?" by Coco, alive. Large, a riff on a French movie about a deaf family - "The deaf peril". - Charb, dead. Third row, left: Duflot, ex-minister from the Green party, asks Hollande to hire her again so she can resign again. She has been opposing Hollande's recent economic reforms. By Luz, alive. Center: "The new name of the UMP will not be 'Gathering'". "People are going to make fun of us!" By Tignous, dead. Tignous usually draws flies over the heads of people he dislikes, the more flies, the more he dislikes the. That's Sarkozy by the way. Right: "Shubmishun" [the title of Houellebecq's book is "Submission"] "Houellebecq's latest book - to be read with dentures". By Riss, alive. Bottom left: "Sievens dam: one dead [an ecologist activist was killed by a grenade fired by the police some weeks ago at a demonstration against the building of a dam], Notre-Dame-des-Landes: one future dead [it's an airport project that Hollande really wants to see happen, but the ecologists have been protesting that one as well]. By Catherine Meurisse, alive. Center: "Houellebecq in 2022" "I wash his undies - I suck his dick - And I write his books" By Luz, alive. Right : "Scandal! Allah created Houellebecq in his image!" By Charb, dead. So there you have it. Flowers For Algeria fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Jan 9, 2015 |
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Jan 9, 2015 12:02
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steinrokkan posted:Why are you asking, Adolf? You may not be using a yellow smiley face this time, but you can't fool me, I know it's you Rall, you Hitler!
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Jan 9, 2015 12:15
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Fantastic effortpost Flowers. So with all of the shitstain rightwing cartoonists out and about drawing Muhammad as a pigfucking pedophile, gargling nonsense about nuking Mecca, why target these guys?
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Jan 9, 2015 12:27
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Flowers For Algeria posted:So. As I promised a few pages ago, here is a page-by-page detail of what a Charlie Hebdo issue generally contains. I took lovely pictures of the issue that came out on the day of the attack. Don't diss the tablecloth. Thank you for this!
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Jan 9, 2015 12:37
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Schizotek posted:Fantastic effortpost Flowers. Because jihadists are proponent of the "clash of civilization" hypothesis and want to see a World War III of the righteous defenders of the faith against the decadent heathens. Their enemies aren't the xenophobic, racist, islamophobic, etc. Their enemies are those who fight for tolerance and universal brotherhood.
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Jan 9, 2015 12:37
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For those complaining about caricatures of muslims being racist, cartoonists exaggerate all features. So white racists become shaven-headed pinheads, Jews and Arabs get big noses, Chinese get round heads, etc. In order to signal something of the figure's origins/national identity etc. the artist has to produce images which are quickly recognisable. Yes, those often pander to stereotypes but cartoonists have to operate with very limited means: 1-3 (usually 1) frame, maximum of 20 words of dialogue (fewer the better), often no colour, and essential labels. You can make a subtle point but it has to be very abbreviated in form and the art has to have a strong impact. Every pictorial detail you can use to signal an identity reduces the need for a label. And cartoons are exaggerated and hurtful and disrespectful. There is no getting around the fact that cartoonists have to use shorthand and sometimes it can look racist (and sometimes it is racist) and when you are making fun of someone because of their actions it can appear you are making of them for their ethnic origins (and sometimes it can be both). But I think you have to look at the message, the context, the publication and the artist's track record to judge the finer points. And there's no way of avoiding misinterpretation and appropriation. Does that seem fair?
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Jan 9, 2015 12:45
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Cat Mattress posted:Because jihadists are proponent of the "clash of civilization" hypothesis and want to see a World War III of the righteous defenders of the faith against the decadent heathens. Their enemies are all the ones with bloody nukes. How hard did their Imam beat their heads in?
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Jan 9, 2015 12:47
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Cat Mattress posted:Because jihadists are proponent of the "clash of civilization" hypothesis and want to see a World War III of the righteous defenders of the faith against the decadent heathens. Most likely, Charlie Hebdo was at the same time an easy and significant target. They specifically targetted Charb because he was most vocal about being allowed to blaspheme openly.
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Jan 9, 2015 12:48
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Josef K. Sourdust posted:For those complaining about caricatures of muslims being racist, cartoonists exaggerate all features. So white racists become shaven-headed pinheads, Jews and Arabs get big noses, Chinese get round heads, etc. In order to signal something of the figure's origins/national identity etc. the artist has to produce images which are quickly recognisable. Yes, those often pander to stereotypes but cartoonists have to operate with very limited means: 1-3 (usually 1) frame, maximum of 20 words of dialogue (fewer the better), often no colour, and essential labels. You can make a subtle point but it has to be very abbreviated in form and the art has to have a strong impact. Every pictorial detail you can use to signal an identity reduces the need for a label. And cartoons are exaggerated and hurtful and disrespectful. There is no getting around the fact that cartoonists have to use shorthand and sometimes it can look racist (and sometimes it is racist) and when you are making fun of someone because of their actions it can appear you are making of them for their ethnic origins (and sometimes it can be both). But I think you have to look at the message, the context, the publication and the artist's track record to judge the finer points. And there's no way of avoiding misinterpretation and appropriation. This would be more acceptable if Arabs were ever given a fair depiction in any cartoon (or movie for that matter). The stereotypical Arab image reinforces the view of Arabs as being barbarians and fanatics, not quite human. Since the goal of a lot of these political cartoons is to represent the actions of Western governments in a favourable light I'd say that political cartoons that depict Arabs as monsters render a service to governments that are at war in the Middle East or involved in the GWOT. Even those cartoonists that only use this stereotype to depict radical Islamists (however they define that) are guilty of this. And as you say there's no way to avoid misinterpretation or appropriation. These images get picked up and repeated, often stripped of the context that surrounds them. These stereotypes hurt minorities disproportionately - I mean if it's ok to think of Arabs as murdering thugs and potential jihadi and what you see on TV and in newspapers all the time validates this view, why the hell would you hire one, or worry much if their countries are bombed? I mean imagine if we were still seeing cartoons that always depicted black people as ape-like looters, thugs and welfare queens produced for an audience that supported harsh police measures and voting restrictions that target black people? Sure you can say it's a shorthand that makes black people easy to recognise but it also carries an entirely negative message. E: VVVV there's that M-16 looking gun again (although with a curved clip) Saint Isaias Boner fucked around with this message at 13:21 on Jan 9, 2015 |
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Jan 9, 2015 13:04
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Jan 9, 2015 13:13
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Thank you again, flowers, great effortpost. Do you know when they'll release their next issue? I'll see if I can grab a copy here in Germany.
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Jan 9, 2015 13:17
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Chewbaccanator posted:Thank you again, flowers, great effortpost. Next Wednesday I think. I'll probably buy a copy given a chance.
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Jan 9, 2015 13:22
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Chewbaccanator posted:Thank you again, flowers, great effortpost. The next issue will have a million copies printed. Comes out on Wednesday: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ng-9965277.html Also, thanks for the great explanation, Flowers. 
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Jan 9, 2015 13:27
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Flowers For Algeria posted:
Thank you for taking the time to do this.
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