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QuarkJets posted:
This would be one of the most important steps I guess, there's a strong correlation between low social economic status and non-vaccination. Different from what you might expect from face book, the vast majority of non-vaccinating parents are not white snobby tribal mothers that fuss too much about the health of their kids. Proposal 1 : Prevent public and private institutions/schools from having a non-vaccination rate >75%. Proposal 2: Make opting out a long bureaucratic hassle that involves a visit to a GP. At the moment the national coverage of vaccination is pretty decent and mostly increasing, the risk of wide spread vaccine preventable diseases is very low. The current outbreaks mostly happen in population clusters with a shared low vaccination rate ( mostly religious exemptions as far as I'm aware) that import the disease through travel outside of the US. If a school/hospital has the obligation to have some semblance of herd immunity, some of the current outbreaks can be prevented. For some regions in the US ( California I believe?) opting out of vaccines is less trouble then actually getting the vaccine, this might reduce the rate of poor family's not bothering to get the vaccines because of time constraints and using the opt-out as a convenient tool. I might be an optimist, but I don't think that vaccine preventable illnesses will be a major problem any time soon. The anti vaccination population is vocal but small and not gaining national traction. IAMNOTADOCTOR fucked around with this message at 16:19 on Jan 9, 2015 |
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Jan 9, 2015 16:06
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for the curious, not a vaccine case, but here's the preliminary order in the chemo case I mentioned. It helps give an idea of what kind of conditions have to be in place for the state to intervene in a medical case. http://jud.ct.gov/external/news/press404.pdf Backstory: http://www.nbcnews.com/health/cancer/connecticut-teen-curable-cancer-must-continue-chemo-court-n282421
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Jan 9, 2015 16:16
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ActusRhesus posted:I think that is already happening to some degree (Hey, Hey Jenny McKay, how many kids did you kill today) but it can be more aggressive. http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com/Jenny_McCarthy_Body_Count/Preventable_Deaths.html These numbers are complete bullshit but still. ( almost all the deaths in this list are from influenza, most countries don't even recommend influenza vaccines for the general population) IAMNOTADOCTOR fucked around with this message at 16:20 on Jan 9, 2015 |
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Jan 9, 2015 16:17
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Coincidentally enough, I just read through one thread on facebook where she talked about how her son with brain cancer won't be getting chemo until it's "absolutely necessary" because they don't want "poison" in his body. They're going with naturopathy instead. They also live in CT, I wonder if DCF takes reports from out of state?
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Jan 9, 2015 16:19
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copper rose petal posted:Coincidentally enough, I just read through one thread on facebook where she talked about how her son with brain cancer won't be getting chemo until it's "absolutely necessary" because they don't want "poison" in his body. They're going with naturopathy instead. They also live in CT, I wonder if DCF takes reports from out of state? I think they have an anonymous hotline. Google. As to the brain cancer case, details? This case hinged on a medical consensus that 1. Cassandra C.'s condition, if untreated would be fatal 2. the success of chemo was undisputed for a patient at her stage and level of health 3. no other medically accepted treatment options available 4. lots of batshit behavior on the part of mom and kid. I don't know what "naturopathy" is. If it's some hippy bullshit, DCF might be able to intervene. If its an alternative treatment that has any validity among real doctors probably not, but I don't know enough about naturopathy to answer that question.
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Jan 9, 2015 16:24
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copper rose petal posted:Coincidentally enough, I just read through one thread on facebook where she talked about how her son with brain cancer won't be getting chemo until it's "absolutely necessary" because they don't want "poison" in his body. They're going with naturopathy instead. They also live in CT, I wonder if DCF takes reports from out of state?
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Jan 9, 2015 16:25
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copper rose petal posted:Coincidentally enough, I just read through one thread on facebook where she talked about how her son with brain cancer won't be getting chemo until it's "absolutely necessary" because they don't want "poison" in his body. They're going with naturopathy instead. They also live in CT, I wonder if DCF takes reports from out of state? You can report from anywhere, use the child abuse hotline to describe the case. 1-800-842-2288 However, this is probably on the Docs to evaluate the situation and report if necessary. You do not have enough information as far as I can tell to make a report right now: this might be a clear terminal case where chemotherapy would only be used palliatively if severe symptoms from compression develop. Alternatively, form some "brain cancers" surgery and radiation are the first line of treatment, using chemotherapy only as a last resort. In that case, visiting a naturopath quack to buy expensive placebo's is not really endangering the kid.
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Jan 9, 2015 16:28
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nevermind...google is my friend. gently caress that noise...take cancer kid to a doctor. here's the DCF hotline info page. http://www.ct.gov/dcf/cwp/view.asp?a=2534&q=314388#Confidential I agree with what IAMNOTADOCTOR said, you may not have enough info for them to take action, but it can't hurt to call.
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Jan 9, 2015 16:29
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ActusRhesus posted:I think they have an anonymous hotline. Google. Naturopathy, not neuropathy. "Natural medicine" bullshit. From what I understand, the kid is young and has had cancer for a while, but recent tests came back with bad news. They think that avoiding chemo until the last possible minute it will be effective is sparing him some physical pain from the chemo itself, instead of just increasing the likelihood that the chemo will be ineffective because the cancer has spread too much. I'm looking for more details now.
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Jan 9, 2015 16:30
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Legality and morality aren't the same thing. The law is a tool to ensure the wellbeing, safety, and prosperity of citizens and a country. When it does not line up with these goals, the answer is to fix the law, not to defend the law as being correct based on its own definitions.
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Jan 9, 2015 16:31
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copper rose petal posted:Naturopathy, not neuropathy. "Natural medicine" bullshit. From what I understand, the kid is young and has had cancer for a while, but recent tests came back with bad news. They think that avoiding chemo until the last possible minute it will be effective is sparing him some physical pain from the chemo itself, instead of just increasing the likelihood that the chemo will be ineffective because the cancer has spread too much. I'm looking for more details now. yeah, i recognized that and fixed it...see above. hotline link posted. if he's end stage and it would only be pallative, there's probably not a neglect case, but if the chemo could be life-saving as in the Cassandra C case, denying it is a problem.
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Jan 9, 2015 16:32
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ActusRhesus posted:yeah, i recognized that and fixed it...see above. hotline link posted. I don't believe the kid is end stage at all. Just that recent results showed that there had been growth since 4 months ago. The doctors are advising that he start chemo right away, because the new growth was just detected. Also, thank you for the hotline info. I will pass it on to someone who knows the situation better.
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Jan 9, 2015 16:35
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copper rose petal posted:I don't believe the kid is end stage at all. Just that recent results showed that there had been growth since 4 months ago. The doctors are advising that he start chemo right away, because the new growth was just detected. yikes. It can't hurt to call. especially if it is as bad as you suspect. bear in mind too, that the doctors also probably have reporting obligations so if this is a repeat of Cassandra C, someone has probably already made a call or two, but that person may not be aware of the facebook posts etc. the more info they have in assessing whether rational decisions are being made to save the child's life, the better.
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Jan 9, 2015 16:41
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Two hundred posts since last night, did we get a real live anti-vaxxer on the forums!? Oh... no, just Fishmech Vs Actus Rhesus. Pedant vs Pedant... whoever wins, we lose.
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Jan 9, 2015 18:21
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Please stop misusing the word pedant.
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Jan 9, 2015 18:30
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ActusRhesus posted:Please stop misusing the word pedant. quote:ped·ant Yeah... I think I'm pretty on target there judging by the last three pages of posts.
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Jan 9, 2015 18:34
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I was asked to give info on legalities surrounding ways to deal with anti-vaxers. Discussing legalities requires discussing details. The law is kind of picky like that.
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Jan 9, 2015 18:36
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ActusRhesus posted:I was asked to give info on legalities surrounding ways to deal with anti-vaxers. Discussing legalities requires discussing details. The law is kind of picky like that. Seriously, I don't understand what's so hard about this. I started it, wanting to know how the law actually works and why people are allowed to, my my lay person eyes, endanger their kid and deny them basic healthcare. I certainly don't like the state of the law and it's enforcement, but that doesn't change what the law is.
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Jan 9, 2015 18:55
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Solkanar512 posted:Seriously, I don't understand what's so hard about this. I started it, wanting to know how the law actually works and why people are allowed to, my my lay person eyes, endanger their kid and deny them basic healthcare. I certainly don't like the state of the law and it's enforcement, but that doesn't change what the law is. Right. The law is, unfortunately, really technical. Otherwise you would have things like Felony Crime: Doing something really bad. Maximum Sentence: A long time. Discussing the technicalities of a topic in which the technicalities directly impact the outcome of the issue is not pedantry. Seriously though, I hope I answered most of your questions, if not feel free to keep asking. I really think though, that absent a significant change in both US criminal and constitutional jurisprudence, you aren't going to get direct intervention in vaccination cases, so indirect methods like restricting unvaccinated kids from public spaces under the state's in loco parentis responsibilities to the other students, and public shaming of whackadoodles coupled with more education and free vaccines is the way to go.
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Jan 9, 2015 19:04
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Solkanar512 posted:I think you also need a social campaign to shame those who spread lovely information and to publicly call it out as child abuse. The laws won't change till public perception changes, unfortunately. We can't even muster up the political will to maintain real mandatory vaccination in schools, so it's not really reasonable to assume that we could impose any kind of law or legal concept that literally criminalizes non-vaccination. It's a nice fantasy, but it's not happening in reality when there are entire counties with a non-vaccination rate of over 10%. ActusRhesus posted:I think they have an anonymous hotline. Google. Naturopathy is basically the catch-all term for hippy bullshit - homeopathy, acupuncture, miracle diets, and so on. Unfortunately, since real cancer treatments that actually work are so brutal, alternative medicine seems to have an easy time getting traction among cancer patients, and particularly among the parents of child cancer patients. Parents pulling their kid out of chemo once they see the considerable side effects taking their toll on their little angel is something that happens semi-regularly, and even Steve Jobs was seduced by the prospect of curing cancer through homeopathic bullshit mixes and woo-woo miracle drinks for a while. It's tough, because chemotherapy literally is poison, but it's the best we've got; all those natural remedies are way more pleasant but they don't do poo poo.
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Jan 9, 2015 19:27
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Main Paineframe posted:Naturopathy is basically the catch-all term for hippy bullshit - homeopathy, acupuncture, miracle diets, and so on. Unfortunately, since real cancer treatments that actually work are so brutal, alternative medicine seems to have an easy time getting traction among cancer patients, and particularly among the parents of child cancer patients. Parents pulling their kid out of chemo once they see the considerable side effects taking their toll on their little angel is something that happens semi-regularly, and even Steve Jobs was seduced by the prospect of curing cancer through homeopathic bullshit mixes and woo-woo miracle drinks for a while. It's tough, because chemotherapy literally is poison, but it's the best we've got; all those natural remedies are way more pleasant but they don't do poo poo. Given that I would shoddily translate it as 'suffering as nature intended' it seems like a very good word 
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Jan 9, 2015 19:34
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In my experience, if the treatment has "naturo" or "nature" in the name it's almost guaranteed to be 100% bullshit. I'd put even odds on it having something to do with ingesting apple cider vinegar, baking soda, or both.
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Jan 9, 2015 19:44
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QuarkJets posted:In my experience, if the treatment has "naturo" or "nature" in the name it's almost guaranteed to be 100% bullshit. I'd put even odds on it having something to do with ingesting apple cider vinegar, baking soda, or both. Ugh. This is something parents of indigo children like, isn't it?
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Jan 9, 2015 20:29
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ActusRhesus posted:Ugh. This is something parents of indigo children like, isn't it? Bingo. The pseudoscience thread in SAL has fun whenever one of them pops their head to spout their bullshit. The thread is here, and there's good info all throughout it. The name changes semi-frequently to reflect the latest idiocy that pops up. http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3100175
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Jan 9, 2015 20:36
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Excellent. When I read the initial post about cancer kid, I read it as "neuropathy" which sounds sciencey. I suspect it was my subconscious trying to protect me from the truth that some people think acai berries and reiki will cure cancer. Seriously though, I hope he has a good pediatric oncologist and his parents don't gently caress him.
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Jan 9, 2015 20:42
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He's been through chemo before, which is why it seems like they're reluctant to put him through it again. But still... chemo may be "hoping it kills the cancer before it kills your body", but naturopathy is just hoping you die before you start suffering.
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Jan 9, 2015 20:51
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QuarkJets posted:In my experience, if the treatment has "naturo" or "nature" in the name it's almost guaranteed to be 100% bullshit. I'd put even odds on it having something to do with ingesting apple cider vinegar, baking soda, or both. I'll have you know I have a very successful record of curing dry, blandish salads with apple cider vinegar  Did I just blow your allopathic mind?
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Jan 9, 2015 22:09
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white vinegar makes a badass floor and counter cleaner...and clean homes make you happy. vinegar cures depression.
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Jan 9, 2015 22:15
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Someone asked me to look at one of those homeopathic cold remedy pill things you can buy at a GNC. It went on and on about the ills it cures on the front, then on the back it said "Each 1g dose contains 1g of sugar."
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Jan 10, 2015 00:26
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Naturopaths love to talk about baking soda and how its being suffocated by big medicine despite the fact that doctors frequently give it to cancer patients. Also had a libertarian coworker tell me that only people who can afford vaccines should have access to them. I tried explaining herd immunity but he just spouted "free market" over and over again. Libertarians have been worse than naturopaths for me.
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Jan 10, 2015 01:46
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Elderbean posted:Naturopaths love to talk about baking soda and how its being suffocated by big medicine despite the fact that doctors frequently give it to cancer patients. that's not libertarian...that's idiot. I'm sure there are libertarians who would agree that's just freaking stupid. Also, baking soda IS great. I use it to make my cat's litter box not smell like cat poo poo. but I wouldn't' try to cure cancer with it.
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Jan 10, 2015 02:38
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tehllama posted:Someone asked me to look at one of those homeopathic cold remedy pill things you can buy at a GNC. It went on and on about the ills it cures on the front, then on the back it said "Each 1g dose contains 1g of sugar." Did it say anything else, or was that it? If it's really a homeopathic remedy, there should be a bunch of "ingredient whatever 10X/5X/1C" stuff listed as well.
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Jan 10, 2015 06:43
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ActusRhesus posted:that's not libertarian...that's idiot. Those are synonyms
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Jan 10, 2015 07:31
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Buried alive posted:Did it say anything else, or was that it? If it's really a homeopathic remedy, there should be a bunch of "ingredient whatever 10X/5X/1C" stuff listed as well. A sugar pill is as effective as a homeopathic remedy, so I don't see the point in trying to figure out whether it was *really* homeopathic or not
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Jan 10, 2015 07:34
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Buried alive posted:Did it say anything else, or was that it? If it's really a homeopathic remedy, there should be a bunch of "ingredient whatever 10X/5X/1C" stuff listed as well. My parents buy these zinc immune-boosters for colds that they swear by, and when they offered me one over Christmas holiday when I had a cold, I flipped over the bottle and saw the 1X bullshit insteand of a real amount of active ingredient. It was weird, normally they're really against any type of woo or hippy-dippy bullshit in medicine, but it turned out they just hadn't read the back and had never heard of homeopathy and didn't know what that meant. I started to explain it, but even trying to find the words to theoretically describe homeopathy to someone else was too much stupid for me to even want to form into sentences, so I figured I'd just let them spend a few bucks on their placebo because hey, maybe it did make them subjectively feel better and I know they're not the types who would eat sugar pills instead of going to the doctor if they were really sick. So that happened I hope you enjoyed my post.
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Jan 10, 2015 07:48
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QuarkJets posted:A sugar pill is as effective as a homeopathic remedy, so I don't see the point in trying to figure out whether it was *really* homeopathic or not If anything, the sugar pill would actually do more (since it would do something, even if it only changed your blood sugar levels)
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Jan 10, 2015 07:48
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VitalSigns posted:My parents buy these zinc immune-boosters for colds that they swear by, and when they offered me one over Christmas holiday when I had a cold, I flipped over the bottle and saw the 1X bullshit insteand of a real amount of active ingredient. It was weird, normally they're really against any type of woo or hippy-dippy bullshit in medicine, but it turned out they just hadn't read the back and had never heard of homeopathy and didn't know what that meant. Placebo's are one hell of a drug
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Jan 10, 2015 07:58
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Buried alive posted:Did it say anything else, or was that it? If it's really a homeopathic remedy, there should be a bunch of "ingredient whatever 10X/5X/1C" stuff listed as well. Yeah it mentioned some other crap like that in another box, but the law of conservation of mass is pretty strict.
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Jan 10, 2015 08:20
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ActusRhesus posted:Excellent. When I read the initial post about cancer kid, I read it as "neuropathy" which sounds sciencey. I suspect it was my subconscious trying to protect me from the truth that some people think acai berries and reiki will cure cancer. Naturopaths often go out of their way to sound sciency and present themselves as legitimate doctors and their treatments as real scientifically-proven treatments - they try to fool people into thinking naturopathy is just another branch of medicind. A lot of the parents dropping chemo and going for hippie bullshit treatments aren't doing it because they're against modern medicine, they're doing it because the harsh side effects of chemo spooked them into looking for alternatives and then they happened upon an accredited naturopathic oncologist from something like the Oncology Association of Naturopathic Physicians, who was very caring and knowledgeable as he told them all about the importance of proper nutrition in combating cancer and excitedly referred to scientific studies showing that green tea might help combat some aspects of cancer. All that sounds reasonable to them, and a whole lot less unpleasant than cancer, so the next thing you know they're drinking eight cups of tea a day and getting intravenous injections of vitamin C, and they honestly think it's helping, and they'll probably even actually feel better...at least until the cancer symptoms grow more severe, but that could take months or even years if they're lucky. Since they avoid real doctors, they have no way of tracking the cancer except to trust their gut instinct, how healthy they personally feel, or what the naturopath says - until the cancer progresses enough that symptoms worsen, the people often honestly believe that the naturopathic bullshit is really helping.
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Jan 10, 2015 08:22
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VitalSigns posted:My parents buy these zinc immune-boosters for colds that they swear by, and when they offered me one over Christmas holiday when I had a cold, I flipped over the bottle and saw the 1X bullshit insteand of a real amount of active ingredient. It was weird, normally they're really against any type of woo or hippy-dippy bullshit in medicine, but it turned out they just hadn't read the back and had never heard of homeopathy and didn't know what that meant. Actual medicine is sold right next to homeopathic poo poo all the time, sold by the same companies and often in the same kind of packaging. A year ago I was looking for some cough drops, the active ingredient of which is often pectin. Several of the packages were labeled "homeopathic" with no active ingredient listed at all; compared to actual cough drop medicines, the front packaging differed only in the flavor of the cough drop. Companies have figured out that they can make money off of sugar pills that are branded as medicine, and so long as "homeopathic" appears somewhere on the packaging then everything is totally legal. Most people won't bother checking and they'll just grab whatever flavor sounds good. It's hosed up.
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Jan 10, 2015 08:30
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