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enraged_camel posted:Since this thread has apparently derailed pretty hard, I guess I'll ask: what's the verdict on the new show? Worth downloading on iTunes? It is fantastic. I too am hoping for a Bucky appearance somewhere on the show, but that sadly won't happen. We would have heard about Sebastian Stan being on set for sure.
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Jan 9, 2015 16:11
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It's good. I don't love it as much as people here do, but I'd say it's better than most of the superheroic TV out there at the moment. Certainly it got off and running a lot faster than anything else, even The Flash.
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Jan 9, 2015 16:18
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jng2058 posted:It's good. I don't love it as much as people here do, but I'd say it's better than most of the superheroic TV out there at the moment. Certainly it got off and running a lot faster than anything else, even The Flash. Running faster than the Flash is high praise indeed.
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Jan 9, 2015 16:39
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mikeraskol posted:They actually seemed pretty competent to me. They had less information than Hayley and were only a step behind her the whole time. It really seemed like a contrast of their approaches. The current ('46 anyway) SSR seems to be structured more like a police/investigative institution (like a super science FBI) and the guys working there all seem to follow those methods. Look at how they've approached things as opposed to how Peggy does it. Peggy is a spy (secret agent, espionage specialist, what have you ...) and she collects information through deception, infiltration, and subterfuge. The SSR guys are overt; questioning suspects, making no move to blend in at the night club, showing up at Roxxon to conduct screenings, etc... They're good at that, but it doesn't work as well when you have a sophisticated adversary that's employing espionage tactics to accomplish their goal. Basically, the SSR in its current form is unequal to the task of dealing with Leviathan, Zodiac, and whatever super-spy organization pop up in the post WWII era of the MCU. Meanwhile, Peggy is pretty much the prototype SHIELD agent, and that's probably where the season/show will end. I was pretty impressed with how easily Haley (as Peggy) slips into roles. Her blonde at the night club character featured a slightly different American accent than the health inspector, and it worked very well. It reminded me of what I liked about Burn Notice, which was that Westin often solved his problems through actual spycraft instead of the more popular, James Bond, version of it. Peggy has some James Bond style gadgets, but she employs a skill set much closer to Michael Westin.
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Jan 9, 2015 16:44
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Charles Gnarwin posted:Running faster than the Flash is high praise indeed. He only claims to be the fastest man alive
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Jan 9, 2015 16:58
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My only problem with Agent Carter so far is that Peggy doesn't seem as competent here as she did in First Avenger. Even ignoring her proving herself in the Zodiac one-shot, she seems a lot weaker as a character here in the first two episodes than she did in her first appearance. In First Avenger, as someone just posted, she decked a smug rear end in a top hat in the face in her first scene, took potshots at the enemy agent that killed Erskine, used her connections to Stark to get Cap behind enemy lines, etc. So far in her own mini-series, she's broken down crying once, is reduced to crawling around on her hands and knees in her own office to steal photos that could blow her cover, and hardly stands up for herself when her SSR superiors treat her like the coffee girl. That said, her badass action moments so far have been really solid, but there's more weakness than was ever shown in First Avenger.
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Jan 9, 2015 18:30
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jivjov posted:My only problem with Agent Carter so far is that Peggy doesn't seem as competent here as she did in First Avenger. Even ignoring her proving herself in the Zodiac one-shot, she seems a lot weaker as a character here in the first two episodes than she did in her first appearance. Well this is one of the main points of the first two episodes, I'm not sure how you could miss it. Peggy isn't weaker, its the situation that's different. Edit: Holy poo poo, she's not "introverted." Just because she isn't up in her bosses and coworkers faces when they say something about coffee or reports doesn't mean she is weak, introverted, or any of that poo poo. mikeraskol fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Jan 9, 2015 |
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Jan 9, 2015 18:34
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jivjov posted:My only problem with Agent Carter so far is that Peggy doesn't seem as competent here as she did in First Avenger. Even ignoring her proving herself in the Zodiac one-shot, she seems a lot weaker as a character here in the first two episodes than she did in her first appearance. I hope it's just because you need to pace a TV show differently than a movie. You can't really spend time on Carter's problems in the movies because its about Cap, so you just boil it down to it's essentials: she's badass and capable, but she's a dame! And in the series the pacing has to show some sort of arc where she starts off a bit introverted and eventually asserts herself.
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Jan 9, 2015 18:35
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jivjov posted:So far in her own mini-series, she's broken down crying once, is reduced to crawling around on her hands and knees in her own office to steal photos that could blow her cover, and hardly stands up for herself when her SSR superiors treat her like the coffee girl. She cried because she got her roommate shot in the head in her own apartment. Badass =/= heartless. As for the crawling on hands and knees, she's breaking into a colleague's desk drawer. Hard to do that standing up, and the photos would blow her cover because her boss doesn't think she's capable of taking part in the mission and would probably fire her instead of praising her if he found out she was sneaking around outside the agency. The whole point of the scene with the legless guy after the meeting was to show that she doesn't NEED to stand up for herself around those jerks, because it wouldn't accomplish anything and it's easier for her to fly under the rader than be the office troublemaker. I don't see any of those as signs of weakness, just finding new ways to operate in a new environment with changed expectations. She can't punch smug assholes in the face because she isn't bossing around green army recruits anymore. She does beat the poo poo out of a guy on a moving car, throws another guy out a window, threatens to murder an rear end in a top hat in a restaurant for insulting the staff, how much of her doing that stuff do you need? They're showing you that her life has to be more complex than just being a tough lady all the time, if she wants to get things done. She seems way more competent since she's operating under much tighter (domestic as opposed to wartime) restrictions.
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Jan 9, 2015 18:36
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During the war she had rank and her general position to protect her and allow her to be more aggressive, where as at the SSR she has basically no clout or rank and it is job she can easily be fired from. I hope if they come back the next season is her already at SHIELD where she will be a cofounder and can be more badass. That's not a spoiler right? That is info we learned in Captain America 2.
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Jan 9, 2015 18:39
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mikeraskol posted:Well this is one of the main points of the first two episodes, I'm not sure how you could miss it. Peggy isn't weaker, its the situation that's different. I have to admit, I'm king of waiting for the "SHE'S A WOMAN!" thing to settle down, most series always put that out right away and then it fades later. However, given the era, it's more excusable. In fact I like how her co-workers are written; they're sexist as hell, yes, but not in a mean spirited way, more a product of their time way. They underestimate her to the point of invisibility, but they're not all being lecherous and abusive like it'd been easy to do. I really dig the vibe they have going there; the same thing shows up when they decide to interrogate a guy by punching the poo poo out of him. It'd been easy to cast them as the villains for that, and a lot of things would have, but they really did make it come off "this is just how things are." I'm sure they'll eventually turn around, but yeah. They'd had it real easy to make cardboard foils for Carter to teach lessons to (Diner man was, I suppose), but they so far have come off as good people that don't know better.
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Jan 9, 2015 18:43
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Sith Happens posted:Edward James Olmos joins the cast: Here's hoping he isn't imaginary this time around.
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Jan 9, 2015 18:51
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Blazing Ownager posted:the same thing shows up when they decide to interrogate a guy by punching the poo poo out of him. It'd been easy to cast them as the villains for that, and a lot of things would have, but they really did make it come off "this is just how things are." I really did like how in most shows they would go behind the mirror and its like ONE single dirty cop back there disconnecting the security camera feed, but in this show it's just filled with cops who want to watch the beating.
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Jan 9, 2015 18:52
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jivjov posted:My only problem with Agent Carter so far is that Peggy doesn't seem as competent here as she did in First Avenger. Even ignoring her proving herself in the Zodiac one-shot, she seems a lot weaker as a character here in the first two episodes than she did in her first appearance. She is also working undercover within her own organization. Behaving like a "coffee girl" is a cover to be able to overhear things she is being left out of. It goes back to how women were treated after the War. They were expected to forget whatever it was that they were doing during it. The men have their own issues too because they were all lauded as heroes and fought the enemy without any context about what the women were doing on the home front.
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Jan 9, 2015 19:55
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Electromax posted:She cried because she got her roommate shot in the head in her own apartment. Badass =/= heartless. Thor and Loki shed tears several times in their movies, even Odin himself rolled at least one on-camera. Tony Stark was reduced to full-on panic attacks and tears a few times through Iron Man 3. Not sure if Bruce Banner technically cried in Avengers, but his superpower is "World's Greatest Temper Tantrum" so it's pretty well implied. Yeah, Carter had a good cry, but it's not like the MCU has made that a girls-only thing. Robot Hobo fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Jan 9, 2015 |
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Jan 9, 2015 21:59
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Robot Hobo posted:Right. It's not just an innocent friend dying, it's an innocent friend dying only because she knew Agent Carter. An innocent friend who probably wouldn't have had a chance if Peggy hadn't been lying to her about her work... but she'll never be sure. Not having a cry after that would make Peggy seem like a sociopath. Nah man she's weak. When she didn't immediately throw a coffee cup into her bosses face when he didn't respect her I was like what is this? Where is the character from Captain America 1?
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Jan 9, 2015 22:00
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She beats dudes down harder than Agent May. Carter owns.
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Jan 9, 2015 22:01
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jivjov posted:My only problem with Agent Carter so far is that Peggy doesn't seem as competent here as she did in First Avenger. Even ignoring her proving herself in the Zodiac one-shot, she seems a lot weaker as a character here in the first two episodes than she did in her first appearance. Likewise, she doesn't "stand up for herself" when her colleagues treat her like a secretary because she knows that first, it'll be futile, and second, it's just much easier for her to run around her bosses' backs instead of being chained to procedure and bureaucracy. Her colleagues underestimate her, which frees her to do things her own way. There's also that the immediate post-war era was a time of tremendous flux for most of the wartime intelligence agencies. SSR functions more as an advanced technology FBI/federal law enforcement agency instead of the military intelligence agency it was during the war. We see the other SSR agents, all veterans of Pacific campaigns, acting like cops, while Peggy's strength is as a spook. She's not less competent as she was in TFA, she's as competent as she was then. Only now she's fighting on a different battlefield that requires smarts in addition to firepower.
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Jan 9, 2015 22:03
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Is it a thing in the Marvel universe that the heroes don't really have secret identities? Iron man came out and revealed himself in a press conference, the US Government advertises who Captain America is through propaganda, I can't imagine the Hulk's identity is a huge secret. Meanwhile in DC you have batman, Superman, Flash, Green Arrow, and all their identities are locked down TIGHT. Is this a thing? I'm not really familiar with comic universes and this just popped into my head today.
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Jan 9, 2015 22:25
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32MB OF ESRAM posted:Is it a thing in the Marvel universe that the heroes don't really have secret identities? Iron man came out and revealed himself in a press conference, the US Government advertises who Captain America is through propaganda, I can't imagine the Hulk's identity is a huge secret. Meanwhile in DC you have batman, Superman, Flash, Green Arrow, and all their identities are locked down TIGHT. Is this a thing? I'm not really familiar with comic universes and this just popped into my head today. In the MCU there are so far no heroes with secret identities, though I imagine no one really knows who the Hulk is because his existence is tied to a secret military program and he is a mistake. Daredevil will be the first I guess. In the comics, secret identities were a big issue and one of the sticking points leading to Civil War.
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Jan 9, 2015 22:28
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32MB OF ESRAM posted:Is it a thing in the Marvel universe that the heroes don't really have secret identities? Iron man came out and revealed himself in a press conference, the US Government advertises who Captain America is through propaganda, I can't imagine the Hulk's identity is a huge secret. Meanwhile in DC you have batman, Superman, Flash, Green Arrow, and all their identities are locked down TIGHT. Is this a thing? I'm not really familiar with comic universes and this just popped into my head today. Dr. Donald Blake has always had a war hammer, I don't know what you're talking about! Beyond that, it seems to be a bunch of little factors. I mean, excluding Thor and Hulk, who are obviously VERY unusual cases... 1) The MCU heroes tend to work within society and its laws, unlike, say, Batman) 2) MCU heroes tend to be American (or at least Earthican), unlike Superman. 3) MCU heroes can function in both their hero and non-hero roles in the same situation. Hawkeye, whether in uniform or not, is roughly the same guy. Batman definitely isn't. They just seem more like government agents on the whole than apart-from-the-system DC-style superheroes. The only real motivation for them to take on a secret identity would be to protect loved ones, and either they don't have any (Widow, Rogers) or are just kinda careless about it (Stark).
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Jan 9, 2015 22:43
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Well there's Spider-Man, keeping his identity secret (from MOST of the public at least) has always been a pretty big deal.
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Jan 9, 2015 22:45
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Jerusalem posted:Well there's Spider-Man, keeping his identity secret (from MOST of the public at least) has always been a pretty big deal.
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Jan 9, 2015 22:48
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32MB OF ESRAM posted:Is it a thing in the Marvel universe that the heroes don't really have secret identities? Iron man came out and revealed himself in a press conference, the US Government advertises who Captain America is through propaganda, I can't imagine the Hulk's identity is a huge secret. Meanwhile in DC you have batman, Superman, Flash, Green Arrow, and all their identities are locked down TIGHT. Is this a thing? I'm not really familiar with comic universes and this just popped into my head today. So far, they don't seem to be a big deal in the MCU, but in the comics, they are a very big deal.
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Jan 9, 2015 22:55
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Pander posted:are just kinda careless about it (Stark). I think it's more he doesn't have worry than just carelessness. Rhodey is an army colonel and has his own armor, Happy is no Black Widow but can hold his own in a fight, Pepper has Extrimis and Tony configured the armor so she can use it, and Jarvis is an AI who is liked up to all his suits of armor. His only other friend is Bruce "The Incredible Hulk" Banner. So yeah Tony really doesn't have to worry.
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Jan 9, 2015 23:08
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Hawkeye & Black Widow are covert ops agents, so their identities are secret by definition?
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Jan 9, 2015 23:12
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Happy got blown up and Rhodey and Pepper both got kidnapped.
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Jan 9, 2015 23:12
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jscolon2.0 posted:Hawkeye & Black Widow are covert ops agents, so their identities are secret by definition? Post Winter Soldier, is Black Widow still that much of a secret agent? She was at a hearing that also had press covering it, didn't she? Other agents probably do have the identities still protected though.
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Jan 9, 2015 23:18
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The analogous comic characters haven't had secret identities in years and years. Everyone's always known Bruce was the Hulk, Don Blake got written out of existence at some point, Steve's been publically known as Cap off and on since the 60s, Natasha's always been in covert ops and Tony outed himself over 10 years ago. The only one who sorta has one is Hawkeye but he hasn't got any non-hero friends anyway so it's not really important. Secret identities just aren't a part of their character concepts any more.
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Jan 9, 2015 23:39
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Rarity posted:The analogous comic characters haven't had secret identities in years and years. Everyone's always known Bruce was the Hulk, Don Blake got written out of existence at some point, Steve's been publically known as Cap off and on since the 60s, Natasha's always been in covert ops and Tony outed himself over 10 years ago. The only one who sorta has one is Hawkeye but he hasn't got any non-hero friends anyway so it's not really important. Secret identities just aren't a part of their character concepts any more. The recent (current?) Hawkeye run is/was centered pretty heavily on him living in a normal building in Brooklyn amongst working class people and the trouble that arises from it. At least the first volume/book/TPB was. I haven't read anything after that one yet.
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Jan 9, 2015 23:45
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ToastyPotato posted:The recent (current?) Hawkeye run is/was centered pretty heavily on him living in a normal building in Brooklyn amongst working class people and the trouble that arises from it. At least the first volume/book/TPB was. I haven't read anything after that one yet. From what I can tell, he still lives there with Kate. At least, I'm pretty sure that's the same place in Hawkeye vs Deadpool...
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Jan 9, 2015 23:56
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Kheldarn posted:So far, they don't seem to be a big deal in the MCU, but in the comics, they are a very big deal. Well, not in more recent years. Captain America, Iron Man, Daredevil, Thor, and even the X-Men all used to have secret identities, but those were mostly eliminated over time beginning in Jemas' run as EIC in the early 2000s. There are some newer characters like Ms. Marvel who do, but Spider-Man is really the only classic character who still has one.
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Jan 10, 2015 00:14
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Kheldarn posted:From what I can tell, he still lives there with Kate. At least, I'm pretty sure that's the same place in Hawkeye vs Deadpool... Hawkeye vs Deadpool? How is that even a fight?
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Jan 10, 2015 00:18
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Blazing Ownager posted:Hawkeye vs Deadpool? It seems to be a thing they're doing with the new Deadpool run (which is REALLY good). So far, they've had Deadpool vs Carnage, Deadpool vs X-Force, and now Hawkeye vs Deadpool. It seems HvD comes about because of the poo poo in Original Sin. I've only read Issues 0-2, so I still have 2 more to go. Gotta stop being lazy, and read them...
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Jan 10, 2015 00:22
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Blazing Ownager posted:Hawkeye vs Deadpool? They don't really fight, as most of these type things go (well they do but under classic superhero team up fight premise of mind control). They team up and Deadpool and Kate become buds much to Hawkeye's disappointment. It's pretty great.
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Jan 10, 2015 00:34
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Deadpool posted:They don't really fight, as most of these type things go (well they do but under classic superhero team up fight premise of mind control). They team up and Deadpool and Kate become buds much to Hawkeye's disappointment. It's pretty great. Kate is the better Hawkeye.
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Jan 10, 2015 01:11
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Funhilde posted:It goes back to how women were treated after the War. They were expected to forget whatever it was that they were doing during it. The men have their own issues too because they were all lauded as heroes and fought the enemy without any context about what the women were doing on the home front. I really liked the line from her flatmate right at the start, where she drops in that 10 more women had been fired because 10 more GIs were going back to work, and that she had to teach them all how to use the tools. The show has been pretty good about the misogyny not being deliberate and aggressive, just systemic. It feels true to life and gives Carter a natural arc to develop within too.
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Jan 10, 2015 01:13
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Mars4523 posted:Kate gets to shoot an RPG, which is pretty amazing. Keep her away from chickens or is it babies?
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Jan 10, 2015 02:00
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Re: My comments about Agent Carter, and Peggy's character: Yeah, I hadn't really considered the angle of "She can put up with the casual sexism, because that lets her stay flying under the radar" angle of it. That alone solves a whole lot of my issues. But I still hope that the general sexist atmosphere gets toned down a bit...I know that its of-the-time...but its a little sleezy and off-putting to watch.
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Jan 10, 2015 02:15
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I think that's the point...that it was a sleazy and off-putting time to be a woman in America.
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Jan 10, 2015 02:24
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