|
Moriatti posted:Generally this stuff seems helpful, but why would anyone pick 4e if not to force fights often, since that's really the only strengths the game has?  Though depending on how often they get into ship battles, it might not always be worth it to play it all the way out. On the other hand, at that point it might not even be worth doing the SC.
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2015 21:05
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 8, 2024 09:32 |
|
|
The free Zeitgeist Player's Guide has some 3rd party ship-to-ship rules in the back for more complicated stuff like chases and shooting cannons at each other.
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2015 21:16
|
|
|
Let's talk about houserules. I'm about to start a new group and I got around to thinking about houserules. A couple of my wife's classmates recently found out that I used to DM, so they got really excited and asked that I start a new D&D group. I ran a group for about a year and a half that ended earlier this year before I moved. While I initially enjoyed it, by the end I got really bogged down because my group was made up of six players who really enjoyed min/maxing their characters and were often the grognardy type that liked to optimize the fun out of the game (I'm sure you know the type). With this in mind, I had hoped that I could convince the group to go with Dungeon World. They, however, wanted more "grid based tactical combat," so I'm going to teach them 4e. Luckily, I know their personalities and they're going to be the type that are all about fun over headaches. Long story short, I've been considering some houserules to put into play to mix things up a little bit. One of the houserules that I had with my previous group is changing skill checks to minor actions. One problem with 4e, in my mind, is that no one is going to want to give up their standard action attack for a skill check. Switching them to minor encouraged players to use their skills more while in combat. Another house rule I've been considering is stealing the movement system of 5e and putting it into 4e. From what I've read about 5e over the last few days, that's one of the few things I do like. Instead of having to take all your movement in one go, you can split it up. Hopefully this encourages people to move around a lot more and play more dynamically. What 4e houserules do you use in your groups?
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 06:28
|
|
|
Mordiceius posted:Another house rule I've been considering is stealing the movement system of 5e and putting it into 4e. From what I've read about 5e over the last few days, that's one of the few things I do like. Instead of having to take all your movement in one go, you can split it up. Hopefully this encourages people to move around a lot more and play more dynamically. My only concern with doing that in 4e is that stealth-based characters become much stronger with that kind of movement flexibility. It might not even come up in your game if no one builds toward it so it's probably no big deal. You might want to keep in mind with the skill checks action economy houserule to also adjust powers & stuff that already affect them (i.e. rogue powers that let you Thievery as a minor would be useless, so maybe now they let the rogue Thievery as a free).
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 06:39
|
|
|
Mordiceius posted:What 4e houserules do you use in your groups? Mostly pertaining to skills:
More  here
P.d0t fucked around with this message at 07:34 on Jan 10, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 06:45
|
|
|
Mordiceius posted:Let's talk about houserules. The next time I run it will probably be: -Ignore what your race says and put your two +2s in whatever two ability scores you want, which will vastly improve a couple of races in particular. -I'm considering house-ruling all dominates and stuns into dazes, and also considering turning all save-ends into EONT (also save ends). This is to discourage the game increasingly being designed around causing and preventing action denial as you level. -As I sit here I wonder if saying that any property effect on a magic item should be ignored. Don't know that this would do much, though. Then the old standbys: -Free Expertise, Improved Defenses, and melee training if you need it -Inherent Bonuses, which vastly reduce the game's treadmill
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 06:49
|
|
|
Generic Octopus posted:You might want to keep in mind with the skill checks action economy houserule to also adjust powers & stuff that already affect them (i.e. rogue powers that let you Thievery as a minor would be useless, so maybe now they let the rogue Thievery as a free). Yeah, with skills I was basically going to shift everything down a tier. I just want to give people a reason to use skills more. OneThousandMonkeys posted:-Free Expertise, Improved Defenses, and melee training if you need it See, I was thinking on outright banning those feats. In my last game, I gave everyone free expertise and I didn't like how it turned out. I mean, I don't want playing certain classes to be a chore, but I do think ranged classes should have to have situational awareness. I'd have a caster run into a group of minions and cast a spell because they had the expertise that allowed them to cast in melee range without provoking opportunity attacks. OneThousandMonkeys posted:-Inherent Bonuses, which vastly reduce the game's treadmill When using inherent bonuses, how do you handle magical items? Do you just not dole them out as often or do you rarely use them at all? Mordiceius fucked around with this message at 06:53 on Jan 10, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 06:50
|
|
|
Mordiceius posted:When using inherent bonuses, how do you handle magical items? Do you just not dole them out as often or do you rarely use them at all? I think the basic, general advice is to give the player stuff that is cool; with Inherent Bonuses, you don't have to change out Weapon/Armor/Neck, but you might want to make them auto-upgrade to higher level versions if/when you do give them a thing that does something cool. Basically, just pay more attention to Properties and Powers on items.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 06:57
|
|
|
Oh, I didn't even mention the houserules I've liked. Partly cribbed from Gamma World, just to make the "adventuring day" less of a thing:
Mordiceius posted:I'd have a caster run into a group of minions and cast a spell because they had the expertise that allowed them to cast in melee range without provoking opportunity attacks. There's enough feats & items & powers & stuff that do this that it's really not gonna matter if it's stapled to an expertise feat or not. You at least don't want to ban the bare-bones +numbers ones though because they're literally there for math scaling.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 07:03
|
|
|
Mordiceius posted:See, I was thinking on outright banning those feats. In my last game, I gave everyone free expertise and I didn't like how it turned out. I mean, I don't want playing certain classes to be a chore, but I do think ranged classes should have to have situational awareness. I'd have a caster run into a group of minions and cast a spell because they had the expertise that allowed them to cast in melee range without provoking opportunity attacks. Sometimes wading in is the appropriate thing to do, even as a caster with lower HP and defenses than the usual defenders. And if they feel like a badass for doing it, well, why not let them? If you try to be rigorous about 'range characters should stay out of melee', you'll end up with the ranger hugging every wall and making every attack at 20 squares and it slows the game down without really making it any more fun.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 07:06
|
|
|
Generic Octopus posted:[*]Second Wind is a minor action for everybody (free for dwarves, pmuch what you're doing with skill checks). So do you have second wind heal for 50% like Gamma World as well? Generic Octopus posted:[*]No surges; everybody has their second wind and whatever leader resources are on the table. Everybody heals to full after the encounter's done. How do you handle healing spells that use a surge? Just math it out as 25% + extra rolls? Generic Octopus posted:[*]At a Milestone, you can choose to either get another Action Point or recover a spent daily instead.[/list] I absolutely love this idea. I can't count how many times I'd get to an extended rest and people had 3 action points banked. Generic Octopus posted:You at least don't want to ban the bare-bones +numbers ones though because they're literally there for math scaling. Wouldn't inherent bonuses take care of this?
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 07:17
|
|
|
We just used surge values for any/all references to surges. Honestly there's probably something wrong with deleting surges entirely (i.e. the Vampire's surges mini-game gets screwed up royally, items that use surges) but it worked alright for us since we didn't use any of that.Mordiceius posted:Wouldn't inherent bonuses take care of this? Inherent Bonuses just take over the Enhancement bonuses from items.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 07:23
|
|
|
Generic Octopus posted:We just used surge values for any/all references to surges. Honestly there's probably something wrong with deleting surges entirely (i.e. the Vampires surges mini-game gets screwed up royally, items that use surges) but it worked alright for us since we didn't use any of that. Yeah, I like the idea of getting rid of surges because I can't count how many times that surge limitations slowed down our group. "Oh, we're through with only two fights and half the group is almost out of surges because the rogue was reckless again. Guess we should backtrack." Though getting rid of surges kind of messes with the idea of milestones, since they were around to semi-compensate for the group running lower on surges.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 07:26
|
|
|
Mordiceius posted:Wouldn't inherent bonuses take care of this? I think what he means is loot should be Luckblade Power (Daily): Free Action. Reroll an attack you just made. Use the second result even if it's lower And you don't bother with the enhancement bonuses at all because inherent bonuses are already providing that. And you don't give them items that are purely enhancement bonuses because otherwise they'd do nothing.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 07:26
|
|
|
Mordiceius posted:How do you handle healing spells that use a surge? Just math it out as 25% + extra rolls? Mordiceius posted:Wouldn't inherent bonuses take care of this? P.d0t fucked around with this message at 07:29 on Jan 10, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 07:27
|
|
|
Mordiceius posted:One of the houserules that I had with my previous group is changing skill checks to minor actions. One problem with 4e, in my mind, is that no one is going to want to give up their standard action attack for a skill check. Switching them to minor encouraged players to use their skills more while in combat. Skill checks are whatever action the DM wants them to be, the idea that they can only ever be standard actions is a houserule in itself. The movement rules from 5e are good but don't drop seamlessly into 4e without some major tweaks to balance, particularly on stealth and charging. The only major houserule we use is that marks and mark punishments apply to multi-attacks the same way they do to bursts and blasts - which nerfs defenders a mildly irritating amount but gives major buffs to rangers in the same situations - and we have WAY more rangers than defenders. If I were running a home game I'd be looking at Inherent Bonuses, free expertise (well, probably just adding in the expertise scaling bonuses where the maths indicates they should be (5, 15, 25) and removing feat bonuses to hit entirely) free improved defences, more skills for people with low numbers of skills, remove class skill lists. If I wanted to spend time getting really in depth I'd look at completely divorcing attacks and defences from ability scores, but that's a lot more designy and more work than it's worth IMO. Generic Octopus posted:[*]At a Milestone, you can choose to either get another Action Point or recover a spent daily instead.[/list] Everyone gets and Epic tier Wizard feat for free? Wow.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 11:57
|
|
|
Mordiceius posted:Yeah, with skills I was basically going to shift everything down a tier. I just want to give people a reason to use skills more. Expertise/Improved Defenses as it is (the +1/+2/+3 bonus) does nothing but correct a math error in the entire game. As isndl says, situational awareness for a ranged striker or controller is still to stay out of melee unless they spend character resources to be more effective in such a situation.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 13:45
|
|
|
Yeah, you don't give them their choice of an expertise feat, you give them the bonus from expertise at the relevant level. If they still want to take Staff Expertise, it's still an excellent feat.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 13:53
|
|
|
I noticed that MM3 on a Business Card lacks any kind of guidelines or formulae for generating the stat block, which is where initiative and perception is derived. Is there such a thing, or are the stats arbitrary as far as MM3 is concerned?
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 15:55
|
|
|
Iunnrais posted:I noticed that MM3 on a Business Card lacks any kind of guidelines or formulae for generating the stat block, which is where initiative and perception is derived. Is there such a thing, or are the stats arbitrary as far as MM3 is concerned? Passive perception should be based on the DC by Level table. Use the monster's level and just pick easy/moderate/hard. Grapple should use this same method. Do everything in your power to avoid using stats on monsters. The 4e DMG wasn't sure what kind of game 4e would be, and there's all kinds of weird poo poo like that.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 16:32
|
|
|
Moriatti posted:Generally this stuff seems helpful, but why would anyone pick 4e if not to force fights often, since that's really the only strengths the game has? Other than a fluid skill challenge system that if used as a scaffold rather than a straightjacket gives 4e the best out of combat experience of any D&D unless you're hardcore dungeon crawling (admittedly "best out of combat D&D for non-dungeoncrawling" isn't a high bar to jump). Mordiceius posted:What 4e houserules do you use in your groups? Inherent bonusses - which allows me to cut down items I give out sharply, and to hand out much more weirdness without anyone worrying too much. Extended Rest = Long Lazy Weekend/narrative break. Means the PCs need to plan much more how deep to go and you sometimes have the invoker tanking because the fighter is out of healing surges. Long rest = 8 hours was one of the worst decisions 4e made.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 17:49
|
|
|
thespaceinvader posted:Everyone gets and Epic tier Wizard feat for free? Wow. Kinda, I guess. At any rate it was fun and made extended rests less of a thing.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 19:33
|
|
|
Other House Rules: -Eberron races (changeling, khalashtar, warforged) actually get languages other than common- they're the only ones without any extras for some weird reason (which is especially obvious if you're a changeling). -All races get +2 to two stats of your choosing. Draconians and revenants already allow for more flexibility, so it's time to get with the times. -I may bump that +2 to two stats to +2 to 3 stats, and at levels 4, 8, etc give +1 to three stats instead of +1 to two. You're still going to have gaps in your ability scores due to point buy, but at least the gap in your defenses shouldn't grow as much as you level. -Again, no such thing as class skills, and all classes can choose 4 skills to train in. If a feat would train you in a skill you already have, choose a different skill. -You can pick two skills to assign to different ability scores. Some vague explanation is preferred, but sometimes you're Str/Con and you've got nothing else to say because it's much easier to bullshit an excuse for mental ability scores. -Characters whose primary and secondary ability scores overlap (Str/Con, Dex/Int, Wis/Cha) can add one of those ability scores to a different defense. Maybe your Con goes into Reflex to represent having a tough hide, or Will to represent being stubborn as a mule, maybe Dex goes into Fort for physical health or Int goes into Will for a mind of steel, maybe Wis goes into Ref for your ability to anticipate attacks, or maybe it goes into Fort to represent mind over matter. No boosting two defenses with one stat though. -Similarly, classes with light armor and no ability scores that add to AC (Str/Wis Rangers, all barbarians except Str/Dex ones, swarm druids, Wis/Con shamans) can add their secondary to AC or get heavy armor as appropriate, maybe both. May require tinkering for hybrids. -Make Basic Attacks easier to acquire. A decent starter is if you've got a weapon at-will you can make basic attacks with your weapon using the same ability score.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2015 20:24
|
|
|
dwarf74 posted:Just set initiative to taste. Use the PCs as a baseline. Well, let me explain what I'm trying to do. In 4e, you're supposed to fight monsters that are at, or very near to, your level. Certainly no more than 4 levels above or below. However, there's a mechanism to be able to use a much higher or lower level creature than you in the Minion/Elite/Solo system. If you adjust a creature's level up or down by 5 (or 10, in the case of solo), and then add (or subtract) abilities to suit the new status, then you can fight the exact same creature at different levels. What I'm trying to do is write a program... well, a database in Microsoft Access... that will take in the barest minimum of information about a creature, and then generate the stats (according to MM3) for it at Minion, Standard, Elite, Solo, and even "Super-Solo" or "Boss" levels, requiring me only to tweak the abilities/traits in the end. As a side benefit, when I stick in the bare information for MM1 creatures, it'll convert it to MM3 math for me as well. I don't want to have to manually put in initiative and perception. Hence, wanting to calculate it via the stat block, if I can generate a stat block by level. I might not be able to get away with it, but... Any suggestions?
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2015 04:41
|
|
|
Iunnrais posted:Any suggestions? You're going to have to define what "barest minimum of information" is before you can do anything. Does that include the base attribute scores? If you have a DEX mod, you can make an initiative score. After that, you can look at the monster, decide that it is good at x things and bad at y things, then slap those on as modifiers (maybe treating the creature as if it were higher or lower level for that specific attribute?) to the MM3 formula. If you don't want to bother plugging in the base attribute scores, well, then maybe things get messy.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2015 04:59
|
|
|
How common is it to have a character with a high as gently caress passive perception? In my last game, we had a couple characters that were about level 5 with a passive perception of 20 or so. At that point, their passive perception is higher than required for everything but hard skill checks. How do you work with that?
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2015 05:11
|
|
|
I was hoping to get by with only inputting the stuff that in the header bar (and the abilities/traits, later). You know, Name, Level, Role, Rank (Elite/Solo/etc), Size, Origin, Type, Keyword. Even if I add in stats, the stats will have to change when the level adjustment happens, so I still need a formula to calculate new values. Hm, I guess I can work backwards, set initiative and perception from the Skill DCs by Level chart, and figure out what the Dex and Wis should be from that, retroactively. Defenses can be calculated, and then related stats calculated from those.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2015 05:17
|
|
|
Mordiceius posted:In my last game, we had a couple characters that were about level 5 with a passive perception of 20 or so. That's basically just Perception trained + Wis primary, so it could be much higher. Passive perception is pretty much taking 10 on the check so if they're suited to the skill they're gonna clear Easy and Medium easily, which is kinda what they're supposed to do. Keep in mind that in an actual "Skill Challenge" or Encounter you're not supposed to be taking 10 since presumably there's some degree of pressure in the situation. If you're concerned about ambushes or whatnot, remember you would compare the monster(s)' Stealth to everyone's passive perception to set the surprise round; your high perception dudes might see it coming, but they don't keep the whole party safe, they just get to act in the surprise round.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2015 05:52
|
|
|
I see the Zeitgeist adventure path listed in the OP. Has anyone tried it out? Is it any good?
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2015 06:52
|
|
|
Mordiceius posted:I see the Zeitgeist adventure path listed in the OP. Has anyone tried it out? Is it any good? Yes, pretty good according to people in the thread.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2015 07:44
|
|
|
I'm debating what route to take my group. These people have zero experience other than maybe playing a little a decade ago in middle/high school, so for all intents and purposes they're fresh. The Zeitgeist campaign seems really interesting and might be something fun to run with them. From what I've looked up about it, it seems incredibly loving well made. Otherwise, I was going to lead them through some of the box adventures. Temple of the Weeping Goddess -> Some Assembly Required -> Reavers of Harkenwold -> Cairne of the Winter King -> Madness at Gardmore Abbey\ EDIT: Also, has anyone tried War of the Burning Sky? Mordiceius fucked around with this message at 08:06 on Jan 11, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2015 08:03
|
|
|
Mordiceius posted:How common is it to have a character with a high as gently caress passive perception? In my last game, we had a couple characters that were about level 5 with a passive perception of 20 or so.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2015 08:33
|
|
|
Mordiceius posted:How common is it to have a character with a high as gently caress passive perception? In my last game, we had a couple characters that were about level 5 with a passive perception of 20 or so. All the characters will have some skills that are super-high. It's normal. As long as you aren't hiding any content that's fun or needed to advance the plot behind a Perception check, you may not have them roll for much other than detecting really stealthy enemies.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2015 08:46
|
|
|
Mordiceius posted:I'm debating what route to take my group. These people have zero experience other than maybe playing a little a decade ago in middle/high school, so for all intents and purposes they're fresh. WotBS originated as a 3.5 adventure and the 4e conversion is supposed to be a bit janky. That said, it's by the Zeitgeist guys so it can't be all that bad. I read the first few adventures years ago, and the only really odd thing is that the PCs can end up with like four NPCs tagging along and helping in fights during the second adventure, which seems like it would get really tedious for the players to watch.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2015 09:00
|
|
|
Mordiceius posted:How common is it to have a character with a high as gently caress passive perception? In my last game, we had a couple characters that were about level 5 with a passive perception of 20 or so. It's not uncommon, and more importantly, it probably gives you an idea of what that player is looking for out of the game - i.e. they're likely looking to avoid random gotcha pit traps, ambushes and not to miss hidden doors and clues. Having insane passive perception is basically a clue that they don't want the DM to randomly gently caress them up the rear end with stuff their character didn't notice.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2015 10:11
|
|
|
I have a player who put their passive insight and perception to 19 at level 1 and I can confirm this is 100% her outlook on things, to the point where it gets needlessly difficult to run a game.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2015 10:52
|
|
|
If your game is seriously broken by someone maxing out Insight and Perception then you need to re-consider what you're doing as a GM. 19 at level 1 isn't even that high, it's an 18 Wisdom with a trained skill. You can be looking at as much as 23 with certain combos. Maxing these skills out isn't remotely abusive, it's what a small subset of Wisdom-based classes are designed to be able to do at the cost of other available options in order to help their party with social interactions and as lookouts. Insight and Perception are comparatively not that important, though they still come in handy. Generally all you're doing with Perception is preventing surprise attacks (which is not something parties should be automatically subjected to) and Insight is generally a skill that helps players out with creatures that already obviously lying about something and/or dealing with GMs who hide plot railroads behind skill checks. It's fun to run a character who isn't a complete dunderhead in any given situation and can be RP'd as being legitimately wise and cunning. 4E isn't about constantly finding ways to negate builds and exploit weak points. Name Change fucked around with this message at 12:14 on Jan 11, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2015 12:05
|
|
|
My Lovely Horse posted:I have a player who put their passive insight and perception to 19 at level 1 and I can confirm this is 100% her outlook on things, to the point where it gets needlessly difficult to run a game. Having a character who can spot ambushes and traps reliably in the party shouldn't be problematic - do all your plots hinge on the characters being taken unawares? If you're THAT desperate to have such a plotline there's always magic.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2015 12:10
|
|
|
It's not so much the actual mechanics of perception and insight making things difficult than her expectations of what those skills can actually do and her tendency to get argumentative when there's something they can't. e: expectations have been known to include "we don't get in any tight spots" where "tight spot" isn't "we got ambushed" but "we got into a combat". e2: my party has a strange relationship to insight though, the other day we had a session where they met some gnome illusionists magically disguised as elves and trying to send them on a wild goose chase for shits and giggles, but the gnomes rolled abysmally on their bluff, so I told them they could see little guys moving the figmentary elves about, their quest instructions were contradictory, obviously made up on the spot and interspersed with suppressed giggling, the PC who spoke Elven could clearly hear the gnomes whispering to each other what to say next, and they still drat near took off into the woods to look for a macguffin that did not in any way exist. My Lovely Horse fucked around with this message at 14:36 on Jan 11, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2015 14:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 8, 2024 09:32 |
|
|
"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" "Yeah, sure, alright. What do you want us to do? We're getting paid, right?" Iunnrais posted:... well, a database in Microsoft Access...  RIP your data at some unspecified point in the future.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2015 16:57
|
|
