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lurker1981 posted:That response actually makes more sense. Not all cultures are equal. Culture is not innate, like ethnicity is, and we are all free to observe or discard various elements of a culture. Certain tenets of conservative Islam, which is a culture rather than a race or ethnicity, are incompatible with French culture. There is nothing racist about acknowledging the superiority of secular culture over Christian theocratic culture, and I doubt even the most reactionary and strident defenders of Islamic backwardness would disagree on that point.
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Jan 11, 2015 17:22
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Ableist Kinkshamer posted:It's on a racist frequency that you can't detect.  Europeans may literally not realise people consider this racist (and not just a joke about the Obama hype) until outraged Americans start shouting at them Countries that are not part of the Anglosphere may think of naming a monkey after Obama as a friendly gesture. Absurd Alhazred posted:You and Titanic should be a shamed of yourselves. why yes thank you lurker1981 posted:That response actually makes more sense. You follow the laws of the French Republic, in which the ideals of  FREEDOM and separation of Church and State are enshrined? Welcome to the team, live however you like, whoever you are.You don't? gently caress off. May or may not work as well in reality as on paper. quote:Also, did the French put the Jews on the trains to concentration camps before or after they were occupied by Germany? The historically-illiterate may wish to read up on Vichy France.
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Jan 11, 2015 17:25
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Ddraig posted:
In terms of proportions, the trend has been that way (guess how many people think only 6 million people died in the holocaust?).
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Jan 11, 2015 17:25
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TheImmigrant posted:Not all cultures are equal. Culture is not innate, like ethnicity is, and we are all free to observe or discard various elements of a culture. Certain tenets of conservative Islam, which is a culture rather than a race or ethnicity, are incompatible with French culture. There is nothing racist about acknowledging the superiority of secular culture over Christian theocratic culture, and I doubt even the most reactionary and strident defenders of Islamic backwardness would disagree on that point. I don't think the French government would come out so nakedly and assert that their culture is superior, they would just say it's theirs. But keep honking on that dog whistle!
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Jan 11, 2015 17:29
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Hob_Gadling posted:Everyone takes it as a given that Islam, as an organized religion, is poo poo. It is doubly poo poo because it's oppressive, patriarchal and in many cases ultra-conservative. What is there to criticize? Which is kinda sad, because it was originally a very progressive and well-organized religion
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Jan 11, 2015 17:30
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blowfish posted:The historically-illiterate may wish to read up on Vichy France. Ouch. wikipedia posted:Germany interfered little in internal French affairs for the first two years after the armistice, as long as public order was maintained.[9]:139 As soon as it was established, Pétain's government voluntarily took measures against the undesirables: Jews, métèques (immigrants from Mediterranean countries), Freemasons, Communists, Gypsies, homosexuals,[citation needed] and left-wing activists. Inspired by Charles Maurras' conception of the "Anti-France" (which he defined as the "four confederate states of Protestants, Jews, Freemasons and foreigners"), Vichy persecuted these supposed enemies. Kulkasha posted:Which is kinda sad, because it was originally a very progressive and well-organized religion I remember hearing a rumor that this was true up until someone went and burned down all their libraries. The key word being "originally", as I'm not going to pretend to make any excuses for any bad behaviors in the last two thousand years. lurker1981 fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Jan 11, 2015 |
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Jan 11, 2015 17:30
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Why would anyone say 9/11 was an inside job? To an individual the collective 'other' is dissonantly glorious and barbarous The state's monopoly on violence is only just to an individual when they agree with it. Democracy is the best means of tempering state violence and social order with the individual desire for justice and mercy.
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Jan 11, 2015 17:32
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Tezzor posted:This argument is idiotic whether it's from Zizek or some goon. You're not allowed to criticize Islam without someone being leery of Islamophobia. Ok: Let's test it out. I don't like Islam's clumsy doctrinaire monotheism or the onerousness of requirements it places on its followers.That didn't seem bigoted. Oh, you meant you're not allowed to say that Islam is a gutter religion followed by psychopaths, advocates murder and should be suppressed by state force without somebody saying you are some kind of "ignorant bigot." How strange ok how about this: every religion including islam~ is a gutter religion followed by psychopaths, advocates murder, and should be crushed under the heel of the state forever (the only good religion is a leashed religion) determining the amount of trolling in this statement is left as an exercise to the reader~ lurker1981 posted:Ouch. It may be sort of a sore spot 
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Jan 11, 2015 17:33
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Tezzor posted:This argument is idiotic whether it's from Zizek or some goon. You're not allowed to criticize Islam without someone being leery of Islamophobia. Ok: Let's test it out. I don't like Islam's clumsy doctrinaire monotheism or the onerousness of requirements it places on its followers. It sounds latently racist, and definitely extremely ignorant of the biggest non-western culture.
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Jan 11, 2015 17:35
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lurker1981 posted:
Man I think the French government just doesn't collect statistics on race, or use race as a factor in making policy determinations - French people aren't like required by law to walk around humming la marseillaise with fresh baggettes tucked under their black and white striped sailor shirts. lurker1981 posted:
I'm pretty sure that France was one of the only allied nations to accept Jewish refuges, before the whole successful German invasion thing. lurker1981 posted:
To sanitize and excuse anti-semitism as harmless jabbing at a weird out-group that couldn't possibly morph into genocide with a few political upheavals in any given society. A Tasteful Nude fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Jan 11, 2015 |
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Jan 11, 2015 17:37
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Kulkasha posted:Which is kinda sad, because it was originally a very progressive and well-organized religion  If Mohammed returned: "I'm the prophet, idiot" "Shut your trap, infidel"
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Jan 11, 2015 17:42
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TheImmigrant posted:Peacefully demonstating in favor of liberal values against violently backward and conservatarded religion is 'reactionary?' It's common enough, but the usual end result in some parts is quasi orientalist white knights reminding increasingly disgusted middle eastern socialists that islamism is an ideology of the oppressed and that they should be glad the bullets they die from aren't being shot by uncle sam but by his 80s buddies.
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Jan 11, 2015 17:46
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blowfish posted:
Amusingly, I think something similar would happen if Jesus Christ returned. edit: Except with Christians trying to slit His throat.
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Jan 11, 2015 17:48
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Kulkasha posted:Which is kinda sad, because it was originally a very progressive and well-organized religion The Quran is very different. It makes minimal requirements that would interfere with the society Mohammed was building: a semi-nomadic war horde. Sure, what war hordes were concerned, they were one of the better ones. But it was still a war horde. Jesus led a club of poor preachers, to preach. Mohammed led a war force, to conquer cities and trade hot spots. Sure, the Quran has a few very beautiful passages about forgiveness and love and so on. But it's more characterised by pragmatism.
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Jan 11, 2015 17:49
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lurker1981 posted:Amusingly, I think something similar would happen if Jesus Christ returned. Woody Guthrie's "Jesus Christ" is pretty apt about that.
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Jan 11, 2015 17:49
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lurker1981 posted:Amusingly, I think something similar would happen if Jesus Christ returned. Uhh I'm pretty sure the general reaction by most Christians would be "poor guy, he's clearly crazy". ----------------
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Jan 11, 2015 17:49
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Mandy Thompson posted:I'm really skeptical that the French really believe in unrestricted freedom of speech since they have a very different attitude if you criticize Israel or Judiasm you could be subject to criminal penalties. Everyone has limits. Criticizing Islam is low hanging fruit, its hardly an unpopular opinion. Criticizing Israel is okay Criticizing Judaism is okay Criticizing Jews is not okay Hope this helps.
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Jan 11, 2015 17:54
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Benjamin Netanyahu, the leading apartheid racist, is leading the march in Paris, yet non of those democracy advocates care about that little detail. oh and by the way, Netanyahu and his ilk actively killed Palestinian cartoonists and poets left and right, so much for the anguish over freedom of speech. Then again the French did kill a million Algerians so I'm not surprised. Al-Saqr fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Jan 11, 2015 |
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Jan 11, 2015 17:57
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Cat Mattress posted:Criticizing Israel is okay It doesn't - why can't I criticize psychotic Haredi Jews, for example?
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Jan 11, 2015 17:58
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Cat Mattress posted:Criticizing Israel is okay The problem with criticising Jews is that it's usually due to fascism, or that it will quickly followed up by fascists, and that's not exclusively to criticism of Jews - but also criticism of Israel and Judaism. Criticism of Jews should be okay, it's just that it's practically near impossible to do so without becoming fascist, or supporting fascism. Edit: oh, I'm so looking forward to somebody find-and-replacing this one with "islam" and "racism".
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Jan 11, 2015 17:58
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lurker1981 posted:Amusingly, I think something similar would happen if Jesus Christ returned. Jesus is supposed to return as a Lion. Chances are good he's already returned and is now a trophy in a sporting club somewhere.
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Jan 11, 2015 18:00
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Al-Saqr posted:Benjamin Netanyahu, the leading apartheid racist, is leading the march in Paris, yet non of those democracy advocates care about that little detail.
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Jan 11, 2015 18:06
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Toplowtech posted:Yeah and Mahmoud Abbas was also leading it next to Angela Merkel. How many heads of states are out there marching?
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Jan 11, 2015 18:08
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Al-Saqr posted:Benjamin Netanyahu, the leading apartheid racist, is leading the march in Paris, yet non of those democracy advocates care about that little detail. It's a pity there's no statement from the Charlie survivors themselves about how they feel about the recuperation of the whole mess by the political class. Oh wait, it came almost the same day. quote:How many heads of states are out there marching?
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Jan 11, 2015 18:08
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Al-Saqr posted:Benjamin Netanyahu, the leading apartheid racist, is leading the march in Paris, yet non of those democracy advocates care about that little detail. Really? Ugh. The real threat to civilization isn't Islamism - it is any sectarian vendetta that impairs rational government. Netanyahu's brother was killed by terrorists - the chip on his shoulder isn't that different from a Palestinian who lost family in an airstrike.
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Jan 11, 2015 18:08
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Cat Mattress posted:Criticizing Israel is okay What are Jews, in this context?
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Jan 11, 2015 18:09
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computer parts posted:What are Jews, in this context? I think he meant to say: quote:Criticizing Israel is okay
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Jan 11, 2015 18:10
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Kurtofan posted:How many heads of states are out there marching? Last I heard, over 50.
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Jan 11, 2015 18:11
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Kurtofan posted:How many heads of states are out there marching?
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Jan 11, 2015 18:11
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Disinterested posted:I think he meant to say: Okay, but does that mean "your mother was Jewish" or "you practice Judaism"?
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Jan 11, 2015 18:13
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computer parts posted:Okay, but does that mean "your mother was Jewish" or "you practice Judaism"? Yes. Nothing is particularly simple and most antisemitism has nothing to do with the religion but with dog whistles aimed at the ethnic group; for what it's worth the far right even at the height of the holocaust left the georgian jews alone for pretty much that reason seeing as they were believed to be entirely converts
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Jan 11, 2015 18:13
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Cat Mattress posted:Last I heard, over 50. Toplowtech posted:I have seen Matteo Renzi, David Cameron, Mariano Rajoy, Angela Merkel, Jean Claude Junker, Ibrahim Boubacar Keïta, Benyamin Nétanyahou, Mahmoud Abbas and Donald Tusk... drat, that seems like a lot of important people out there in public. Was it the same after 9/11? Kurtofan fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Jan 11, 2015 |
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Jan 11, 2015 18:14
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As much as i hate most conservative columnist "lookiny at you andrew bolt" there is truth in this article http://m.smh.com.au/comment/these-crimes-have-everything-to-do-with-islam-20150111-12lxmn.html
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Jan 11, 2015 18:14
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Why isn't there a thread on D&D dedicated to discussing religion so I can get insulted as a racist for my sympathies with Sam Harris?
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Jan 11, 2015 18:14
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Agnosticnixie posted:Yes. Hmm, it's almost as though I can see parallels! (e.g.: FGM is not a religious practice and is in fact practiced by some Christians)
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Jan 11, 2015 18:16
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Cingulate posted:Why isn't there a thread on D&D dedicated to discussing religion so I can get insulted as a racist for my sympathies with Sam Harris? We have a Christianity one, but I'd wait if you don't want it to just be about this poo poo exclusively. computer parts posted:Hmm, it's almost as though I can see parallels! (e.g.: FGM is not a religious practice and is in fact practiced by some Christians) Anti-semitism has kind of a unique history, and I'm not just talking about the holocaust. It becomes a fixation even in places without any Jews, it has lasted thousands of years, has been actively encouraged as a doctrine of an established church across a whole continent, etc. etc. It kind of doubles up as a conspiracy theory too, with all the stupid crackpot poo poo that goes with that.
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Jan 11, 2015 18:17
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Toplowtech posted:I have seen Matteo Renzi, David Cameron, Mariano Rajoy, Angela Merkel, Jean Claude Junker, Ibrahim Boubacar Keïta, Benyamin Nétanyahou, Mahmoud Abbas and Donald Tusk... Also seen Helle Thorning-Schmidt, Ahmet Davutoglu and Enda Kenny. Also a Saudi delegation a little bit further back I think?
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Jan 11, 2015 18:19
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Kurtofan posted:drat, that seems like a lot of important people out there in public. Was it the same after 9/11? I don't think so. Was there even an organized remembrance march after 9/11?
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Jan 11, 2015 18:24
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TheImmigrant posted:So your entire point is a tone argument. If Muslims go off the reservation about tasteful criticism, the criticism is okay. On the other hand, if you find the criticism tasteless, you'll become very uncomfortable and see lots of racism, which is even worse than mass murder. Tone is actually an extremely relevant factor. I'm kind of amazed that you don't understand why, unless you're pretty far on the autism spectrum. Somebody vehemently railing against any group and calling them "gutter ______" (religion, race, culture, whatever) is definitely pretty indicative of bigotry. But also, more to the point, can you really not see why the difference between "I don't like Islam's clumsy doctrinaire monotheism or the onerousness of requirements it places on its followers" and "Islam is a gutter religion followed by psychopaths" is not merely one of tone? e: Reading some of your posts in the I/P thread. Good Lord. You really have a "white males are the TRUE endangered species!" complex, don't you? Majorian fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Jan 11, 2015 |
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Jan 11, 2015 18:34
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Narciss posted:This is some top-tier cringe. I have yet to see a criticism of Islam in this thread that is not dogwhistle racism for anti-Arab sentiment. Islam has a problem, separation of religion from government. Can it adapt to be more compatible with "modern" society? I think in some cases it has, but there is a portion of it that wants to hang onto medieval social values, and would like to "impose" these values on others.
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