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laplace posted:Armada's Diddy at BEAST V is making me depressed. Commentators described three uairs in a row after a downthrow as hype This is Sakurai's vision
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Jan 11, 2015 21:38
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Leffen Vs. Mang0 was so awesome I had to get up and walk off the hype.
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Jan 11, 2015 23:11
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Melee always looks really lame to me and I've never gotten as hype over it as I do watching Smash 4.
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Jan 12, 2015 01:18
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I think the Smash 4 commentators at KIT summarized it well during a Diddy vs Peach match. Both were on last stock above 100% and one of the commentators saw the peach get a fair and he screamed "AAAAH ITS GONNA KILL HYYYPE!!" And then it didn't and the other commentator was like "We should probably stop saying things like that because nothing kills in this game." I think I have more fun listening to the commentators of Smash 4 matches than I do actually watching them because of those little moments of gold. That being said BEAST V's smash 4 final was pretty cool cuz the luigi was pretty good and the Luigi vs Sheik match was pretty nice.
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Jan 12, 2015 01:43
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The big problem there is there's really no way to fix that issue aside from a complete mechanical overhaul of the knockback on moves, since it's a flaw that applies to pretty much every character and character move. Which they'll never ever do.  Maybe someday they'll trim down the period of time air dodging and spot dodging leaves you invincible for, at least.
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Jan 12, 2015 01:59
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I think Sm4sh will get more hype once people actually learn how to play the game. Most pros don't even incorporate perfect pivoting yet. The game has a lot of problems and I don't love it but I think it has time to grow a little bit at least.
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Jan 12, 2015 02:03
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I've been playing as Mario a lot lately and have been getting frustrated that his double jump wasn't working sometimes. I did some experimenting in Training mode, and it seems like sometimes Mario will do a fancy mid-air flip or something similar which will prevent you doing a double jump. A good way to see this is to run off a platforming, wait until you're almost off screen, and jump (your first jump) trying to get back on. He does a flip that locks you out from his double jump. What exactly is this, and how do I stop it from happening??? Do other characters have this and I never noticed it? I tried replicating it with Ness and couldn't. EDIT: Okay I got Ness and other characters to do this too (though it seems to happen more easily with Mario). What exactly triggers a lock-out of the double jump like this? It seems to be more than just holding backwards on your first jump, but not 100% sure EDIT AGAIN: I'm an idiot, it's just when you walk off a ledge you only get one jump. I have no idea how I never noticed this before. Sorry! mancalamania fucked around with this message at 06:48 on Jan 12, 2015 |
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Jan 12, 2015 06:39
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The midair flip is his double jump. Most characters have two normal jumps and an up+b recovery move. There shouldn't be anything locking out his midair jump unless you've already jumped in the air.
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Jan 12, 2015 06:47
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laplace posted:Leffen Vs. Mang0 was so awesome I had to get up and walk off the hype. Where can I watch this? Is it up on Youtube or anything?
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Jan 12, 2015 08:39
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laplace posted:I think Sm4sh will get more hype once people actually learn how to play the game. Most pros don't even incorporate perfect pivoting yet. The game has a lot of problems and I don't love it but I think it has time to grow a little bit at least. Every new fighting game or iteration is pretty bad in its 1st year. Hell, Street Fighter 4 has at its core been the same game for like a decade but it still has drastic changes in players adapting to it from the 1st year to its last.
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Jan 12, 2015 09:16
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I think Wii Fit Trainer is very underrated. I just had this match I felt really good about, even if the Fox is probably more bad than I am good. I've been practicing a lot for a tournament coming up this weekend and I am definitely noticing improvement. I know I tried grabbing too much at the expense of embarrassment and sometimes free hits but it's such a good punishment for shield-unsafe repetition. Apologies for crappy quality, I don't have a fancy 3ds setup like all the streamers do and I don't own a Wii U but I tried my best. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sn-FhXsQpoo
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Jan 12, 2015 10:01
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Characters tend to get a ground jump and an aerial jump (or several, for certain characters). If you leave the ground in anyway, you're not getting your ground jump since you're not on the ground to use it.
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Jan 12, 2015 12:50
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laplace posted:I think Sm4sh will get more hype once people actually learn how to play the game. I'm super not interested in watching competitive Melee. It's all Fox/Falco/Falcon and some Ice Climbers thrown in (also the game is ugly now), so it's not just not that fun to watch. I've watched a lot of competitive Smash 4 though, and it feels like there's way more diversity in characters. Sonic is there now since he's buffed, I've seen competitive players do things with Bowser Jr I hadn't even thought of, even Metaknight still shows up even though he's been nerfed a lot and seen some good players be ridiculous with him, seeing Dedede wreck people with his hammer rules, etc. Smash 4 is a lot more fun to watch
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Jan 12, 2015 13:31
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Macaluso posted:I'm super not interested in watching competitive Melee. It's all Fox/Falco/Falcon and some Ice Climbers thrown in (also the game is ugly now), so it's not just not that fun to watch. I've watched a lot of competitive Smash 4 though, and it feels like there's way more diversity in characters. Sonic is there now since he's buffed, I've seen competitive players do things with Bowser Jr I hadn't even thought of, even Metaknight still shows up even though he's been nerfed a lot and seen some good players be ridiculous with him, seeing Dedede wreck people with his hammer rules, etc. Smash 4 is a lot more fun to watch Don't worry, in a couple of years they'll boil Smash 4 down to a ladder as well and absolutely everyone will be playing the 3 "top tier" characters just like in Melee  Really though, it's more fun now since people haven't decided on what characters are best so people are experimenting and playing with all of them. All the characters are viable until someone finds out some "tech" or combos that make one character clearly superior, and then everyone will flock to that. Aren't half of all the competitive SSB4 people already playing Diddy Kong, for example? e: wow my post comes off as kinda bitter, sorry  I will say that Smash 4 has some incredibly interesting characters like Villager, Duck Hunt and Rosalina&Luma that have the potential to be amazing when played by someone really good. They have so much potential to do insane things, so I can't wait to see someone utilize it. Your Computer fucked around with this message at 13:58 on Jan 12, 2015 |
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Jan 12, 2015 13:44
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Macaluso posted:I'm super not interested in watching competitive Melee. It's all Fox/Falco/Falcon and some Ice Climbers thrown in (also the game is ugly now), so it's not just not that fun to watch. I've watched a lot of competitive Smash 4 though, and it feels like there's way more diversity in characters. Sonic is there now since he's buffed, I've seen competitive players do things with Bowser Jr I hadn't even thought of, even Metaknight still shows up even though he's been nerfed a lot and seen some good players be ridiculous with him, seeing Dedede wreck people with his hammer rules, etc. Smash 4 is a lot more fun to watch That's actually not really true. Yeah Fox/Falco are always popular but it's more Jigglypuff/Peach/Falcon/Sheik and even Marth after that. In between that you'll see more Dr Mario/Mario than Ice Climbers. The game you're thinking about was what was played in the early 2000's, the character picks and the way they're played are super different now. For example Mute City used to be a counterpick but is now banned because people figured out Peach was completely broken on it once people learned how to use her properly
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Jan 12, 2015 13:51
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KingofSprings, how often do you go on For Glory? I swear I might of ran into your Lucina a couple days ago because I fought one using the same black color and general playstyle (though a tiny bit more aggressive) I won like a single match then got destroyed a lot.
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Jan 12, 2015 15:19
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Speaking of competitive Smash 4, I hate Diddy Kong because his Side B is so brutal  The whole "latch onto face and pummel" thing really brings to mind the 2009 chimp attack where a woman lost her face.  I guess he's a monkey and apes are the scary dudes, but still.All his other moves are silly and cartoony, it doesn't even fit in with the rest of his moveset. Your Computer fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Jan 12, 2015 |
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Jan 12, 2015 16:10
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Maleficent posted:I think Wii Fit Trainer is very underrated. I just had this match I felt really good about, even if the Fox is probably more bad than I am good. I've been practicing a lot for a tournament coming up this weekend and I am definitely noticing improvement. I know I tried grabbing too much at the expense of embarrassment and sometimes free hits but it's such a good punishment for shield-unsafe repetition. That Fox kept dash attacking you and got grabbed for it almost every single time.
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Jan 12, 2015 18:42
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I find a lot of for glory players don't tend to learn from mistakes that get them grabbed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIlj7CxFaBk
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Jan 12, 2015 18:47
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ThisIsACoolGuy posted:KingofSprings, how often do you go on For Glory? Generally a couple of times per week. Any idea what day it was? (The black colour scheme is p. common so it may not have been me) TheKingofSprings fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Jan 12, 2015 |
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Jan 12, 2015 19:08
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TheKingofSprings posted:Generally a couple of times per week. Any idea what day it was? (The black colour scheme is p. common so it may not have been me) It was pretty late at night. Only reason it stood out is I fight Lucina's all the time (Black only once before) and it was the only time I've ever seen one put a ton of pressure on with shield breaker.
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Jan 12, 2015 19:40
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LanceKing2200 posted:Deviant vs Rhycool Jesus this is embarrassing.
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Jan 12, 2015 19:42
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So I've played a loving ton of Classic on 9.0 trying to get that drat Challenge, so I've inevitably wasted a lot of coins. I went from being very close to 200k to like 40k in a few days. I'm back up to 100k+ by playing a little Crazy Orders. I can regularly nab 4000+ coins before I want to challenge Crazy Hand. I use R.O.B. with the Home Run Bat equipment, First Striker Invincibility, and Quick Batter equipment. The idea is, his beam is so fast, you'll usually get the first hit. Now you're invincible. Now you can go at your opponents with the Home Run Bat. It works wonders and I can regularly go to like round 25 without taking any damage. Try to always do either Giant or Metal battles, but Team Battles, Free for Alls and even the occasional Horde battles aren't so bad. I also got all the CDs very quickly using this method, as well as lots of custom moves. Obviously, the downside is needing a lot of money or crazy orders passes, but through playing various modes, I've got 20+ of the things left. Also, if you want to destroy a ton of blocks for the 50,000 blocks Challenge, use Palutena with the Heavenly Light custom move. It's ridiculously good. I thought DK's Down+B was the best for this, but I get like 35-45 trophies per 2:30 minutes with Palutena this way, which translates into lots of broken blocks. p.s. Someone come to my house and clear Classic on 9.0. without dying for me, please. I'm so tired of this. The sad part is, I feel myself getting closer each time I actually get to Master Hand. It's the getting there that's such bullshit. Completely up to the whim of the computer whether a bomb will spawn above your head or the computer gets all 3 Dragoon parts before you even notice they spawned. 
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Jan 12, 2015 20:07
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FALCOOOON PACIFISM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vbPKqHFBns
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Jan 12, 2015 20:42
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i'm still salty that the only match of mine that was recorded was the one where i lost
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Jan 12, 2015 21:21
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sharrrk posted:i'm still salty that the only match of mine that was recorded was the one where i lost The only losses that matter are tournaments and money matches. Everywhere else, losing is a learning opportunity.
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Jan 12, 2015 21:29
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LanceKing2200 posted:Well the goon tournament finally wrapped up (after a month and a half). If anyone is interested here's the highlights: Still super-proud of my trick PKT2 kill: http://gfycat.com/DeadEnlightenedAmericangoldfinch
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Jan 12, 2015 22:37
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I'm sad that this game doesn't have a Subspace Emissary mode. I liked it a lot. I hope it is in Smash 5.
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Jan 12, 2015 22:38
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DoctorWhat posted:Still super-proud of my trick PKT2 kill: i'm still feeling it
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Jan 12, 2015 22:43
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Macaluso posted:I'm super not interested in watching competitive Melee. It's all Fox/Falco/Falcon and some Ice Climbers thrown in The most played characters in Melee are Sheik and Marth. As the other poster put it, there are more characters that see the light in Melee than the spacies. Sm4sh competitively sees more weight towards the top 5 than Melee's top 8. There are a fair amount of Doc Marios, Luigis, and Samuses as well in most Melee tournaments. Ice Climbers are actually the least played of the competitive characters. That being said, Smash 4 isn't actually that much more diverse -- Melee has less characters but each of those characters is unique and plays differently. Smash 4 has 50 characters and while they all have somewhat unique movesets, they all set up in the same ways (dthrow uair uair whoaaaaaaa) and most moves have the same underlying properties. Smash 4 has room to grow but the argument "Man its more diverse" really isn't factually correct right now, because a lot of the characters in the game have the same gameplay, making the cast far more limited and less interesting. A good example of this is just that if you like Bowser Jr. Competitively you may as well play Rob -- Whereas in Melee, liking Roy doesn't mean you should just play Marth because he's better. They have completely different gameplay. That's one of the reasons why I like Luigi in Smash 4 more than anyone else, because hes noticeably unique in a cast who's gameplay is largely the same due to the underlying mechanics. If you just want to see other characters, Project M is also pretty hype and cool and has very similar (but a little bit different) mechanics to melee. I'm not going to say Melee is "better" because of this, but I think a lot can be learned by actually watching competitive melee. Many people believe it's just Fox Only Final Destination which couldn't be farther from the truth. laplace fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Jan 12, 2015 |
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Jan 12, 2015 22:58
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laplace posted:A good example of this is just that if you like Bowser Jr. Competitively you may as well play Rob -- Whereas in Melee, liking Roy doesn't mean you should just play Marth because he's better. They have completely different gameplay. lol
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Jan 12, 2015 23:15
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So having watched a bit of Reflex's Wario for a bit, I've been inspired to try out a couple things. First off, the bike. A fully charged fart on your bike is incredibly satisfying when they're on the edge. Somehow, a fully charged waft will extend your hitbox down to the ledge, where they can be hit. Plus, it will freeze you in place (possibly with super armor, not sure) and keep the hitbox out. This catches so many For Glory players off guard and normally results in a rage quit for some reason. To quickly put your bike on the edge, you simply run off and crash into the wall immediately. If done right, if will go over the edge and just collapse right there (remember to recover, though!). Also, do you find yourself wheelie-ing off the stage on accident? You might still have a spare bike. As long as you don't start using your bike in the air, you can ride off a cliff, jump off, wait for it to fall off the screen, and use another bike towards the stage. Finding this out now, I can't count how many times this would've saved me when I rode off-stage. I also looked back on the Rose Waft. I had called it garbage a while back, but it may be better than I thought. It doesn't just put a flower on someone's head, it also has a massive hitbox. For context, if Wario is standing on a platform above you and decides to fart, it will hit you. This move gives Wario a massive, disjointed hitbox, which is something Wario desperately needs. The shorter charge time lets him use the later charges much more frequently than the regular waft. I don't know if it's enough to trade the KO power of the regular waft, but it may not be rear end bad as I thought. One last general thing I want to point out, ledge-guarding might still be a thing in Smash 4, but in a different way. If someone is on the edge, I try to grab the edge while they're hanging on. The idea is that if they try to grab the edge again and you didn't hurt them, they will not be invincible at all. This is a good way to get in a quick down smash on them while they're going through the "grabbing the edge" animation, possibly for a KO. I've been trying this out to varying successes and failures, but maybe someone can shine some light on this for me.
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Jan 12, 2015 23:19
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Please don't watch the videos of my battles posted above. The shame of my SD in the first one taints them all.
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Jan 12, 2015 23:21
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Yeah, could you elaborate on that a bit? I'm having a hard time seeing how Marth and Roy, literal clone characters, are less similar than ROB and Bowser Jr.
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Jan 12, 2015 23:21
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Stallion Cabana posted:I'm sad that this game doesn't have a Subspace Emissary mode. I liked it a lot. I'd rather have a more extensive Melee Adventure Mode. At least, I'd prefer levels and enemies based on the actual game worlds, and playing through as one character instead of needing to switch between most levels and lives. The cutscenes were fun, though.
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Jan 12, 2015 23:38
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Roy's downtilt pops people up, and he relies heavily on the usage of his dancing edge blade, as it has defensive properties. Roy's sweetspot is at the hilt of his sword, so he is a rushdown character that relies entirely on being in people's faces. Roy has a really bad recovery so he can't offstage spike like Marth. Marth on the otherhand uses tippers exclusively and benefits greatly from spacing away from opponents. Marth's downtilt pushes backwards, not up, making him centered around pushing the opponent away and playing defensively with his tilts and then punishing. Marth's Dancing Blade does not have defensive/meaty properties so it is used exclusively for comboing and stalling, making Marth's close options very, very poor. Part of Marth's gameplay flow is based around pushing the opponent to the edge and then edgeguarding them with dtilt or bthrow to dair in offensive situations, whereas Roy depends largely on gaining kill percent through combos and mindgames/keeping the opponent in positions where they can't attack and then sweetspot f/dsmashing them into oblivion from the middle of the stage. On the other hand, Rob and Bowser Jr. are both characters with projectile setups that are based around using Down B to put something on stage, and then forcing the opponent to jump over it and catch them either with Lazer or Canonball or Up B/Jump into Fair. The benefit of playing Rob in this situation is that Rob doesn't arbitrarily take more Damage than Bowser Jr. on a random part of his hitbox. As they both essentially use the same mechanics, ROB is considered the better character, due to both his recovery and his better hitboxes when he utilizes the same mechanics. Roy is considered a bad character in Melee, but not because Marth is a better option -- Roy is considered bad because his fall speed makes him very risky against combo oriented characters and limits his recovery. The closest character to Roy in the game is actually Young Link or Samus, and despite having a projectile based game, both of these characters utilize setups closer to Roy than Marth does due to their moves having similar properties (popup downtilt into nair being a very common punish for all three, for example.) They're still different, but they have closer gameplay than Marth and Roy do. This is also the reason why people are sort of frustrated with the Clones in Smash 4, because the difference between Fox and Falco or Roy and Marth in melee was genuinely huge, whereas with Lucina and Marth the difference is literally just in costume (and theoretically in Marth's favor, since he has higher damage potential if you got tippers 100% of the time). It's the same reason why you'd want to use Mario rather than Doc, or Dark Pit rather than Pit -- Their systems are largely the same, but just have some better numbers. Essentially, There's a lot less gameplay to work with (at least currently) in Smash 4, which makes the cast very same-y compared to the relative uniqueness of the past games -- Brawl included. Advanced tech and other mechanic discoveries will hopefully mitigate this and create more interesting scenarios (Luigi edge setup into perfect pivot taunt spike is a good example of Luigi's meta changing due to tech discoveries), but the meta right now is kind of stale due to how new the game is. laplace fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Jan 12, 2015 |
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Jan 12, 2015 23:39
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There has to be some level of matchmaking beyond "who's on right this second" because I still can't parse the distinction you're drawing yet have stretches of 100% in the top half and do better than 25% win rate.
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Jan 12, 2015 23:46
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laplace posted:Roy's downtilt pops people up, and he relies heavily on the usage of his dancing edge blade, as it has defensive properties. Roy's sweetspot is at the hilt of his sword, so he is a rushdown character that relies entirely on being in people's faces. Roy has a really bad recovery so he can't offstage spike like Marth. I'm still not really seeing your argument. Roy and Marth have the exact same movesets with different numbers and properties, while Boswer Jr and ROB have the same philosophy as projectile-based characters and yet are somehow more similar than actual clones. You may as well try to say that Bowser Jr. and Duck Hunt are the same characters because they both put things on the ground and capitalize on the opponent not wanting to get hit by the thing. Or, in Brawl, that Snake, with his C4 and down smash, was twice the ROB that ROB was. Another reason Roy is considered bad is because he straight up doesn't have a dash attack. (Marth's, for comparison.) Maple Leaf fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Jan 13, 2015 |
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Jan 13, 2015 01:20
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laplace posted:The most played characters in Melee are Sheik and Marth. As the other poster put it, there are more characters that see the light in Melee than the spacies. It's definitely not the fact that there are a limited number of competitive characters in either games that bugs me, but the fact that those characters aren't Bowser, Ike, Mr. Game and Watch, and other related extremely cool characters. Falcon and Luigi are cool but that's it. All of the good characters in either game, are extremely lame, especially outside of Smash, which is what's important here.
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Jan 13, 2015 01:32
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