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I think like in the case with the new Falco in the early months a lot of people are going to try to play a character in a way that's familiar to them, and not necessarily in a way that character makes the most of. I'd imagine if someone really learns Bowser Jr. and takes advantage of their damage reduction against the clown car they can get away with things a ROB probably couldn't.
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Jan 13, 2015 01:35
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The game is less than 6 months old, if we go back to the 3DS version. No game is ever remotely figured out until after a year at absolute minimum.
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Jan 13, 2015 01:49
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mabels big day posted:It's definitely not the fact that there are a limited number of competitive characters in either games that bugs me, but the fact that those characters aren't Bowser, Ike, Mr. Game and Watch, and other related extremely cool characters. I hope you'll appreciate this Ike putting the boots to Sonic. Go to 0:58 for some sweet Ike swag.
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Jan 13, 2015 02:33
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looks like PM is back on at xanadu? been seeing them streeam a lot of 4 the past couple of months and no PM http://www.twitch.tv/umdsmash
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Jan 13, 2015 02:42
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Coolest characters accoring to yours truly: Luigi Jigglypuff Captain Falcon Ness Bowser Dr. Mario Ganondorf Mr. Game & Watch Wario Snake King Dedede R.O.B. Wolf Mii Fighter (all of them) Pac-Man Robin (Male) Shulk Bowser Jr. Duck Hunt Everyone else are posers. 
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Jan 13, 2015 02:46
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Bowser is secretly top tier actually
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Jan 13, 2015 02:50
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Folt The Bolt posted:Robin (Male) what the gently caress, dude Reiley posted:I think like in the case with the new Falco in the early months a lot of people are going to try to play a character in a way that's familiar to them, and not necessarily in a way that character makes the most of. I'd imagine if someone really learns Bowser Jr. and takes advantage of their damage reduction against the clown car they can get away with things a ROB probably couldn't. Tae posted:The game is less than 6 months old, if we go back to the 3DS version. No game is ever remotely figured out until after a year at absolute minimum. History repeats itself, I feel like Brawl was never given a fair shake either (qualifier, of course, being that the initial assessment turned out accurate over time, but right now it's way too soon for super-definitive statements about character strategies in a game with 50 characters) (that being said  at ROB and Bowser Jr. being literally the same)
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Jan 13, 2015 02:56
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Wild Knight posted:what the gently caress, dude I'm simply not a fan of Female Robin. That's all there is to it.
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Jan 13, 2015 02:58
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Folt The Bolt posted:I'm simply not a fan of Female Robin. That's all there is to it. Unbelievable.
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Jan 13, 2015 03:00
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Reiley posted:Unbelievable. Believe it.
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Jan 13, 2015 03:04
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Folt The Bolt posted:Coolest characters accoring to yours truly: An agreeable list, for the most part.
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Jan 13, 2015 03:10
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The list is missing Peach and mistakenly includes not one but all three "Mii Fighters", actually
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Jan 13, 2015 03:13
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Well, I am sorry guys I tried to make an apology video but not a lot of people accepted it. I just can't do it. Maybe I can try to make another one tomorrow but I am not good at this sort of thing. I am not a liar I hate Rosalina I am sorry I can't be nice about this in any matter I tried but this is not who I am. I am even having second thoughts actually showing the pictures because people would even ruin my reputation more. All I wanted is for people to thank me for sharing a tutorial of making easy money on something that just came out. Then maybe hopefully they would check out my other reasonings and help Nintendo stop the Hentai in my games. This is really unfair for me and I don't think I can go through with this because every site I have been apart of sees me as a joke. I just wanted to try to help people I am sorry I can't do that much of a good video without offending others but it just makes me angry at modern gaming. I really do have the stuff on Preorder but I will make it up to you guys if I show them on film or not. Just wish I could get as much respect as Fatron or Egofapper but no I get shoehorned with hentai thrown in my games and I get hated for trying to save true nintendo games from being made.
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Jan 13, 2015 03:20
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Wild Knight posted:(that being said What are you talking about? Bowser Jr shoots a cannonball, ROB shoots a plastic top, Bowser Jr's copter can turn into a car, ROB has lazer eyes. They're practically interchangeable. Pit and Dark Pit part 2
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Jan 13, 2015 03:24
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TheKingofSprings posted:Well, I am sorry guys I tried to make an apology video but not a lot of people accepted it. I just can't do it. Maybe I can try to make another one tomorrow but I am not good at this sort of thing. I am not a liar I hate Rosalina I am sorry I can't be nice about this in any matter I tried but this is not who I am. I am even having second thoughts actually showing the pictures because people would even ruin my reputation more. All I wanted is for people to thank me for sharing a tutorial of making easy money on something that just came out. Then maybe hopefully they would check out my other reasonings and help Nintendo stop the Hentai in my games. What hentai? What is he on about? I don't understand. Please advise.
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Jan 13, 2015 03:36
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He's referring to Rosalina e; and Zero Suit Samass
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Jan 13, 2015 03:40
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NTT posted:He's referring to Rosalina And wii fit trainer, and robin, and anyone female really.
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Jan 13, 2015 03:45
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TheKingofSprings posted:Well, I am sorry guys I tried to make an apology video but not a lot of people accepted it. I just can't do it. Maybe I can try to make another one tomorrow but I am not good at this sort of thing. I am not a liar I hate Rosalina I am sorry I can't be nice about this in any matter I tried but this is not who I am. I am even having second thoughts actually showing the pictures because people would even ruin my reputation more. All I wanted is for people to thank me for sharing a tutorial of making easy money on something that just came out. Then maybe hopefully they would check out my other reasonings and help Nintendo stop the Hentai in my games. I forgive you.
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Jan 13, 2015 03:46
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Folt The Bolt posted:I'm simply not a fan of Female Robin. That's all there is to it. Misogynist
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Jan 13, 2015 03:50
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My point with Roy and Marth is that their actual gameplay, which is the only thing that matters, is fundamentally different, making them different characters. On the other hand, Smash 4 has a lot of characters but many of them have the same gameplay, making them the same character. Yes, Roy has the same animations as Marth, and Falco has the same animations as Fox, but they are different characters because their gamepaly is different. My argument re: Bowser Jr. and Rob is that since their gameplay isn't different, it boils down just to numbers, whereas in Melee there is a smaller cast looking at the character select screen, but the choice to play each character is not simply "Their numbers are bigger!" in most cases. Your example of Brawl Snake doesn't really apply because Snake is about largely tricking the opponent into not seeing where you place things, or getting them to walk into specific zones on the screen. It's a lot different than the defensive playstyle that ROB may have. I'm not saying Bowser Jr. Or Rob or anyone like that is a bad character or you're wrong for playing them, I'm just saying competitively, right now, the argument that Melee has a small cast of clones isn't quite understanding how the characters and gameplay are structured in the Smash games. laplace fucked around with this message at 04:03 on Jan 13, 2015 |
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Jan 13, 2015 04:01
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This is actually a really cool write-up but wouldn't it also matter how long the games have been out and the depth that the characters have been explored? Like on the one hand it seems like the break down of the Marth/Roy Melee match up is incredibly nuanced, probably based on years of studying the ins and outs of the characters and the perfect approach to both of them. Whereas in the Bowser Jr./R.O.B. matchup, they have 3 moves that roughly map to each other so people use them similarly because it gives good immediate results, but I have to believe there are enough differences between these 2 that they should play differently in other situations, even if this one approach is similar.
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Jan 13, 2015 04:01
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So women give him the boners, therefore they are hentai filth okay I understand thank you. Is it just me, or does Kirby feel a bit off in Smash 4? I used to play him all the time in melee but he just feels sort of off now. I can't place my finger on it, other than his hammer working a bit different.
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Jan 13, 2015 04:03
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Guy A. Person posted:This is actually a really cool write-up but wouldn't it also matter how long the games have been out and the depth that the characters have been explored? Yeah, it boils down to tech, generally. Wavedashing made lots of characters who were seen as bad very good (Roy was originally thought to be better than Marth, for example), Stuff like Waveshining and Missile Cancelling moved Fox and Samus up the tier list and opened up their gameplay and changed the meta of how their matchups worked. The best example is probably Mewtwo, who was bumped up 6 places in the past two years because of a single player discovering interesting things about his recovery and how his grabs worked in conjunction with other Tech. Once again my point wasn't that this could never change or that like there wasn't ANY nuance to the Bowser Jr. or Rob debate, my point was just more that there are lots of characters in Smash 4 but many of them are more than superficially similar, so competitively the variation is the same if not less than Melee, especially with the Top 5 the way it is right now. laplace fucked around with this message at 04:14 on Jan 13, 2015 |
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Jan 13, 2015 04:05
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Ok that makes a lot of sense. Like it is actually really cool to hear about stuff like the Roy d-tilt popping opponents up and Marth's pushing them back, and how those differences actually inform their play styles at an advanced level. But then it seems odd to hear R.O.B. and Jr.'s down-B's described as just "putting something on the stage", when they both behave in drastically different ways. It doesn't seem like the same level of detail and advanced understanding is being given in both circumstances, and I have to think there will be more discovered since we are only like 3 months out.
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Jan 13, 2015 04:14
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All these melee nuances are about mashing buttons mindlessly and seeing what happens..smash 4 is specifically design for that NOT to happen. The meta-game is definitely there (and certainly has more room to improve! ) and there's a lot more to 4 than mechanical inputs that has pervaded Melee and the Melee-likes.. Sakurai understood what was wrong with Brawl big time and has gone out of his way to stop history from repeating itself.
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Jan 13, 2015 04:15
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Maple Leaf posted:I hope you'll appreciate this Ike putting the boots to Sonic. Go to 0:58 for some sweet Ike swag. Wish this was a vid of ike putting boots on sonic instead anyways i think laplace is just overcommitting a bit too much to the comparison but i can see where They Are Coming From
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Jan 13, 2015 04:17
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It's honestly a matter of the raw mechanics of this game and the meta currently, where the knockback differences between Rob or Bowser Jr, or like, Lucina Vs. Marth aren't actually that different -- Both provide similar amounts of knockback in the same direction, whereas the changes are a little bit more nuanced due largely to the fact that the cast in the other games is smaller and they probably had less to work with. The major differences in the ROB and Bowser JR discussion are that the over B for Bowser Jr. can be dropped in midair, which makes it really unsafe in most cases if the opponent knows what they are doing. The actual payoff for landing the hits is largely the same, ROB's just being stronger and being kill move at lower percents. As of right now, the meta isn't very differentiated and as a result the characters are fundamentally the same, with the "better" choice to play competitively falling in ROB's favor. Obviously this isn't a HUGE debate but it's been discussed pretty heavily on Smashboards. There are some other characters this has factored in for (Tink and Link, Marth and Lucina being the main example), and essentially the argument boils down to many characters being just worse versions of regular characters in most matchups. For people who think that there aren't any ways to play Melee low tiers or anything like that, you should watch DJ Nintendo play Bowser, Axe play Pikachu, Mang0/Scorpion Master play Mario, etc. These characters can be played in really interesting ways and actually are played pretty regularly. The idea that the top tier is all that exists in Melee is more a community joke than a fact, which as of right now in Competitive Smash 4 isn't really the case. bef posted:All these melee nuances are about mashing buttons mindlessly and seeing what happens..smash 4 is specifically design for that NOT to happen. Most of melee is about understanding exactly what you're doing at any given moment, and no one will argue stuff like L-Cancelling is a good thing (arbitrary skill barrier), but the functionality itself is important to how the game ends up being played. Melee is definitely not about button mashing mindlessly. Melee is about knowing exactly what you are doing at every moment and doing it perfectly, and the reason why people want it to return to that is because the skeleton of that is in Smash 4 -- there just aren't as many options and as a result the game feels more limited. laplace fucked around with this message at 04:23 on Jan 13, 2015 |
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Jan 13, 2015 04:20
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The way the discussion is going at the moment though (and i say this as someone not participating in said discussion so forgive me if i'm off base) it feels like it's barely a matter of time before the pros throw up their hands and go back to melee because they're not willing to put in the time investment required to make ROB and Bowser Jr. play differently like they were with Marth and Roy. Like i'm sure that like brawl it'll shake out in a few years but people always seem like they're on the verge of "gently caress this" even though the game is very nascent.
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Jan 13, 2015 04:28
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IDK, Smash 4 has a pretty big scene currently. It has a huge amount of entrants at Apex and is being supported pretty well. Most of the Melee players just play Melee and PM. Brawl players are graduating to Smash 4. Streams are pretty common right now. The "fear" most players, even competitive ones for Smash 4 have is that the game just won't have the systems to find anything cool like that. That's what the discussion is really hingeing on -- Is something like Wavedashing going to be discovered that revolutionizes the game, or is Smash 4 with its problems all we get? Melee had a bazillion problems at launch and isn't a very interesting competitive game without those things and people are nervous that things can't evolve because of the systems in the game rather than their ability to find things. Everyone is hoping that changes.
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Jan 13, 2015 04:36
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laplace posted:IDK, Smash 4 has a pretty big scene currently. It has a huge amount of entrants at Apex and is being supported pretty well. This is also the first Smash to present the possibility of discovered tricks being patched out, see: DACUS.
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Jan 13, 2015 04:37
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Wild Knight posted:The way the discussion is going at the moment though (and i say this as someone not participating in said discussion so forgive me if i'm off base) it feels like it's barely a matter of time before the pros throw up their hands and go back to melee because they're not willing to put in the time investment required to make ROB and Bowser Jr. play differently like they were with Marth and Roy. Like laplace said, i think the issue is there's only so much you can do in the game, compared to melee where there are so many possibilities. You see so much more happen in melee compared to 4 because of how much you're able to input into a character if you know all the tech involved. People that are really into melee and such are more concerned that there is just not enough in smash 4 that could lead to the psuedo-limitless potential you get with melee. Characters have lag frames (I just made up A Word) that you cant get rid of and the game has a slower tone, with more forgiving circumstances such as large blastzones and long recovery. You definitely see people play aggressive in 4 but not to the absurdity and ruthlessness that melee can be. I was dropping my jaw during the B.E.A.S.T 5 tourney played this past weekend. I used to not like watching Melee at all because of the character roster that is generally used (fox and falco being stupid glass cannons that can do anything if your hands are fast enough, sheik and marth being notoriously good) but you start to looks past the characters and more how the person plays and what they do in every situation every second. you see personalities shine just in how quick they think and how nimble they are with their fingers. It can be quite creative at times. 2's in particular are absolutely fantastic. TheKingofSprings posted:This is also the first Smash to present the possibility of discovered tricks being patched out, see: DACUS. 
bef fucked around with this message at 04:52 on Jan 13, 2015 |
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Jan 13, 2015 04:41
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Why the smiley? It was there and it got patched out. I'm not saying it's make or break, just that it being patched out means the possibility of them doing the same thing to other stuff is there.
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Jan 13, 2015 04:57
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TheKingofSprings posted:Why the smiley? It was there and it got patched out. Because I love seeing cool mechanics that could further develop the newest iteration of one of my favorite game series get patched out
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Jan 13, 2015 05:03
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Maple Leaf posted:I hope you'll appreciate this Ike putting the boots to Sonic. Go to 0:58 for some sweet Ike swag. This is a video of 1 Player playing Ike against a cpu or something?
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Jan 13, 2015 05:23
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Folt The Bolt posted:Robin (Male) Please leave your fanfiction out of this thread, thank you.
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Jan 13, 2015 05:27
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laplace posted:Is something like Wavedashing going to be discovered that revolutionizes the game, or is Smash 4 with its problems all we get? I hope something gets discovered (and not patched out) that changes the game up and adds a new level of depth. I love how the game plays and it's fun as poo poo, I just had a party with a ton of 8 player matches which were absolutely baller, but I feel like there's nothing new for me to try and learn in the game or try and get good at with my characters. Things are becoming routine for me with some of the characters I play and it's why I usually play Olimar instead of Ness. Ness is somewhat cut and dry but Olimar it keeps me a little more involved with managing Pikmin, choosing which to throw or use in a Smash, perfecting the timing for the Whistle Armor and making sure I always have 3 Pikmin on the field. The same thing is happening with my friend and Link, he's played the character since 64 but because the character hasn't really changed he's getting so bored of Link's gameplay so he's picked up Shulk and likes the whole Manado Arts poo poo you have to juggle. I was hoping custom moves would open the flood gates but they hosed that up.
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Jan 13, 2015 05:42
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Maple Leaf posted:I hope you'll appreciate this Ike putting the boots to Sonic. Go to 0:58 for some sweet Ike swag. This is absolutely filthy, in a terrific way. Definitely taking notes.  Is that Ike pulling off some perfect pivots, or am I looking at it wrong?
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Jan 13, 2015 05:44
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Sire Oblivion posted:I was hoping custom moves would open the flood gates but they hosed that up. Yeah, that's honestly still on the table. A few TOs have been allowing them recently. When I say I want something to crack open the game I really do just mean for the competitive angle. I think Smash 4 is perfectly Fun on its own as it is and it's a good time with friends, but I do think it needs work to function as a competitive game. I want both sides of the scene to exist, and they both deserve to for sure.
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Jan 13, 2015 06:01
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I really want custom moves in an online pub match capacity, divorced from stat-boosting equipment. That would make actually picking a loadout and practicing with it actually meaningful. But if noplace but Friend Matches actually supports custom moves, they really may as well not be there. You just really need to lose the Equipment as well, or have a way to enforce equipment-free loadouts. All I really want is Heavy Skull Bash. That's my only wish......
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Jan 13, 2015 06:04
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the only one that really needs custom moves no matter what is palutena, and that's because they picked the worst ones for default.
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Jan 13, 2015 06:19
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