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The girls may have eventually gotten over the fact that they're essentially gems controlling meat puppets (perhaps they're even aware of this fact from the start in the remade world? I don't recall if this is addressed at all) but it's easy to believe that they may have felt it was a violation of their sense of self that they didn't consent to, not to mention that Kyubey intentionally withholding what he was actually doing to them was the first clear cut sign that he was kind of a scummy bastard that couldn't be trusted. Sayaka in particular was just a unique case because of the whole Kyousuke thing. We can't know for sure exactly what level of sacrifice she thought she was making when she made her wish but I suppose the Soul Gem revelation sort of put in the forefront the permanence of her decision. She was indentured to fight witches for the rest of her life and in her view she was emphatically, irreversibly "no longer human" and thus not a compatible partner for Kyousuke. Perhaps one with transhumanist ideals or someone older who's lived their life and can approach such a situation in a reasoned and objective manner would be able to come to terms with this fact but no one should expect that out of a random 14-year old girl.
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Jan 15, 2015 00:48
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Namtab posted:When they make a wish, they are essentially turned into sentient gems that pilot their former bodies around like meat puppets. There really is a cultural application to it though. Shintoism is, if loosely practiced, still widely accepted as a spirituality in Japan.
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Jan 15, 2015 00:49
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/\/\While there may be a slight cultural reference that can be twisted out of it, I don't think that the soul gems are supposed to be a nod to shintoism.ViggyNash posted:I've always thought of the Soul Gems as being the singular core of their being, so to distill their core into a vulnerable material object is a huge burden on them. It's been a while since i watched the show but I'm pretty sure the point of the soul gems is that they aren't vulnerable. In fact I'm pretty sure the rationale is that they are turned into soul gems because the soul gem can't be damaged like their bodies can. The burden is essentially from discovering that you have been transformed into something alien, something the mind struggles to comprehend. You are the rock, looking through your puppet's eyes at yourself. You are not human. Namtab fucked around with this message at 01:05 on Jan 15, 2015 |
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Jan 15, 2015 01:00
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Namtab posted:It's been a while since i watched the show but I'm pretty sure the point of the soul gems is that they aren't vulnerable. In fact I'm pretty sure the rationale is that they are turned into soul gems because the soul gem can't be damaged like their bodies can. With this line of thought though isn't weird that they can 'die'? Like Mami dies when she gets decapitated but her soul gem was unharmed (wasn't it? been a minute since I watched that episode). So does that mean she didn't actually die?
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Jan 15, 2015 01:05
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Sinking Ship posted:With this line of thought though isn't weird that they can 'die'? Like Mami dies when she gets decapitated but her soul gem was unharmed (wasn't it? been a minute since I watched that episode). So does that mean she didn't actually die? No, her soul gem breaks. This is made explicit in Beginnings ( the movie version), where we get a quick shot of it shattering.
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Jan 15, 2015 01:08
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Namtab posted:It's been a while since i watched the show but I'm pretty sure the point of the soul gems is that they aren't vulnerable. In fact I'm pretty sure the rationale is that they are turned into soul gems because the soul gem can't be damaged like their bodies can. I say that because in the Homura flashbacks, she would commit "suicide" by shooting her soul gem, and so I assumed that soul gems were just relatively hard to destroy objects, but destructible nonetheless.
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Jan 15, 2015 01:13
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Sinking Ship posted:With this line of thought though isn't weird that they can 'die'? Like Mami dies when she gets decapitated but her soul gem was unharmed (wasn't it? been a minute since I watched that episode). So does that mean she didn't actually die? We don't know what they experience when disconnected from their human puppets though, but based on the evidence it seems as though they are essentially inert, unable to think or sense anything. I don't remember what happens to Mami's soul gem though, although the only things that would be able to affect it would be corruption (but that would rely on use of magic, which she is unable to do) or kyubey eating it (I don't think that happens). Interesting thought though: What if they gave Mami's soul gem to another girl who lost hers? Would Mami take control? Would the girl just reawaken? Or would nothing happen, the implication being that part of what makes the system work is the gem being specifically tied to a single puppet? E: Actually, scratch all that above. If the gem breaks when Mami's puppet is damaged sufficiently then that implies that the gem is tied to the puppet it controls. However later on Sakuya is able to take quite heavy amounts of damage after she finds out about how the gems work (although admittedly she never loses her head). Perhaps part of the effect is based on what a person's perception of themself is. Mami did not know she was not human so she dies when she thinks she should. Homura knows that she is the soul gem so she is able to damage it with her own magic. Sakuya knows that she is the soul gem so she is able to take a fatal level of damage without dying, because she knows her body is a shell. Maybe I'm overthinking anime Namtab fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Jan 15, 2015 |
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Jan 15, 2015 01:14
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Namtab posted:Interesting thought though: What if they gave Mami's soul gem to another girl who lost hers? Would Mami take control? Would the girl just reawaken? Or would nothing happen, the implication being that part of what makes the system work is the gem being specifically tied to a single puppet? This makes me wonder, is the mechanism that allows a soul gem to control a human body as a puppet also the same mechanism that allows a witch to take over random passerbys and induce them to suicide? quote:E: Actually, scratch all that above. If the gem breaks when Mami's puppet is damaged sufficiently then that implies that the gem is tied to the puppet it controls. Well in Mami's case the soul gem is on her head and the head is what Charlotte chomped up so I find it highly unlikely the gem itself would have withstood that type of abuse.
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Jan 15, 2015 01:26
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Mami's soul gem was in her head (the flower hairpin), so Charlotte prolly crushed it. E: Too slow.
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Jan 15, 2015 01:27
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Namtab posted:Maybe I'm overthinking anime To be fair this could pretty much be the subtitle to ADTRW
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Jan 15, 2015 01:28
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Basically there's a lot of questions left unanswered about soul gems and so on that I could  on for hours and that is what was interesting about madoka.
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Jan 15, 2015 01:31
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Kyte posted:Mami's soul gem was in her head (the flower hairpin), so Charlotte prolly crushed it. She did:  (Making gifs is apparently incredibly difficult and annoying, who knew) Magical Girls cannot die from normal wounds. The bunnycat is pretty specific about this, using an example of them "losing all of their blood", or something along those lines. Mami would have survived had her Soul Gem not been on her head. In theory, magic could have repaired her body. That said, A head wound could probably cripple a Magical Girl (Rebellion aside, (spoiler for the guy who wasn't watched it) Homura shooting herself doesn't really count because it's a dream state). From what we see with Sayaka, when seperated from her body, she is completely unaware that anything has happened. This suggests to me that, while the Soul Gem holds the soul, the soul itself is not capable of thought or perception without the brain to supply it with that stimuli. I.E, without a brain, a Magical Girl can be alive, but unconscious, without something to supply the soul in the Soul Gem with thoughts and perception. Assuming Mami's Soul Gem was placed somewhere else and Homura was willing to invest the magic necessary to repair her body (supported by the fact that Kyouko used her magic to keep Sayaka's body from rotting) Mami could have survived. It is worth pointing that part of this is also based on knowledge. Even a normal wound can cripple a Magical Girl if they do not know they are a lich and can "tank it". Mami was wounded in the stomach and crippled in The Different Story, for example. However, if they're aware of it, they can overcome fairly grievous wounds, such as when Sayaka was fighting Elsa Maria (her super healing ability aside). Sayaka is fairly explicit about the knowledge she's gained allowing her greater control of her bodily functions, such as the ability to ignore pain. Lord Justice fucked around with this message at 05:27 on Jan 15, 2015 |
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Jan 15, 2015 04:01
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The Soul Gem's the hard drive, the body's the computer. A hard drive isn't useful without a computer or system to access it, nor is a computer useful without memory to direct and define it. It's easy to replace the computer, if not cheap, but the data on the HDD (or in this case, the 'soul') is invaluable.
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Jan 15, 2015 09:10
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Namtab posted:Basically there's a lot of questions left unanswered about soul gems and so on that I could ok let's do it.
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Jan 15, 2015 09:10
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Space Flower posted:ok let's do it. I believe Kazumi is technically canon? And they do a lot of experimentation with Soul Gems in it.
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Jan 15, 2015 09:11
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PerrineClostermann posted:I believe Kazumi is technically canon? And they do a lot of experimentation with Soul Gems in it. Ooh, like what? I haven't read Kazumi because I heard it was really bad
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Jan 16, 2015 22:40
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KasaiAisu posted:Ooh, like what? I haven't read Kazumi because I heard it was really bad I recall there being a magical girl with two soul gems, two souls. Because one girl was dying, iirc.
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Jan 17, 2015 02:45
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The best thing that could be said about Kazumi is that it plays with the witch/soul gem/etc. concepts in interesting ways. The execution is just a terrible trainwreck, is all.
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Jan 17, 2015 03:16
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Rebellion gets a dub and official release datequote:Aniplex of America outlined the details of its Blu-ray Disc release of Puella Magi Madoka Magica The Movie Part 3: Rebellion at its Otakon Las Vegas panel on Friday. The third and final Madoka Magica movie will ship on April 7 in three editions: a Limited Edition Blu-ray/DVD/Soundtrack CD Combo Set, a Standard Edition Blu-ray, and a Standard Edition DVD. http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2015-01-16/madoka-magica-the-movie-part-3-rebellion-gets-english-dub/.83378 I still ain't watching it.  The series is a perfect little jewel of storytelling and I don't need it expanded, or changed, or whatever. When things are done it's ok if they're done! damnit
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Jan 17, 2015 03:49
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a kitten posted:Rebellion gets a dub and official release date Don't watch it then. No, I'm serious. If you want to remember Madoka Magica as represented by the series, do not watch Rebellion ever. There is no going back, you've been warned.
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Jan 17, 2015 06:05
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a kitten posted:Rebellion gets a dub and official release date The cake song in English is going to be a glorious trainwreck, I can't wait. Hopefully SFDebris will review this now, I've been waiting for that for a while. As to Rebellion itself, ViggyNash is correct. Rebellion smashes the series to pieces, albeit in the best possible way. You know that trope where Urobuchi's characters usually end up in despair and misery? He does that with Rebellion to the viewer. That said, it does necessitate its own existence, and addresses the deficiencies in the series' ending (Homura's despair, Kyouko and Sayaka as the two primary examples).
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Jan 17, 2015 06:26
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I'm pro-Rebellion, let's get sad, fuckers
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Jan 17, 2015 06:42
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Chibs posted:I'm pro-Rebellion, let's get sad, fuckers Same here. The truth hurts. The series literally changed my life for the better but idgaf. 
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Jan 17, 2015 06:51
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Rebellion is perfect and takes the good but otherwise unremarkable TV ending and improves upon it immensely. 
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Jan 17, 2015 07:09
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TV series end was good, but Rebellion is even better. Homura was right.
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Jan 17, 2015 07:51
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I really liked how it grabbed the one significant loose thread in the series' ending and pulled so hard the whole thing came apart. It's fun. And if we get a S2 starring Hero Sayaka then it'll be even better. Kyte fucked around with this message at 08:44 on Jan 17, 2015 |
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Jan 17, 2015 08:26
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Kyte posted:I really liked how it grabbed the one significant loose thread in the series' ending and pulled so hard the whole thing came apart, Rebellion, Prince of Darkness and AO are the trifecta of bolting on tumorous additions to good, complete stories.
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Jan 17, 2015 08:40
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I wasn't saying that Rebellion is bad, but that it completely changes everything Madoka Magica once was. I can understand wanting to live with what made the show amazing.
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Jan 17, 2015 16:41
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A Partial List of Things That Didn't Need Followups and/or Expansion in any way: Madoka Eureka Seven The Matrix Watership Down Star Wars OT Dune (all downhill after the first book, and the ones by his son are abysmally bad) Watchmen Alien(s) Sandman Add your own! Or don't actually. At this point in my life I'm just tired of it. Things that reach a proper ending should stay ended. Remaining questions can be mulled over in your brain, talked about with friends, wondered about while drifting off to sleep. Why am I so grouchy about this?  In any case, I'm not actually mad that Rebellion exists or anything and if it brings enjoyment to people, well that's cool and not a problem. Not for me though, I'm just going to let things that are over, be over.
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Jan 17, 2015 17:23
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I was in the 'don't want the movie to ruin the TV series ending' camp but there's so much good stuff in the film that I can forgive it deliberately ending on a sequel hook (also Sayaka and Kyouko are super cute in it.)a kitten posted:A Partial List of Things That Didn't Need Followups and/or Expansion in any way: Generally agree with most of that list but you're nuts with regard to Dune, the Frank Herbert ones just keep getting better. gently caress the lovely ones his son and that Star Wars EU hack wrote though.
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Jan 17, 2015 17:29
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Honestly I think this is the rare case where the series works well on its own but still works well when packaged with Rebellion. Rebellion just flips things sideways and starts exploring a new angle, IMO.
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Jan 17, 2015 18:59
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If it helps any you can partition Rebellion into a separate continuity. Shinbou has stated that the movies are separate from the series in that way, and Rebellion follows from Eternal, not the series itself.
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Jan 17, 2015 19:06
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Kyte posted:Honestly I think this is the rare case where the series works well on its own but still works well when packaged with Rebellion. Rebellion just flips things sideways and starts exploring a new angle, IMO. Pretty much this. The show left questions about the universe and rebellion explored them in a self contained way, ending again with questions left about the universe in a similar way to the series. The series ended in a potential sequel hook as well, after all.
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Jan 17, 2015 19:54
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Sakurazuka posted:(also Sayaka and Kyouko are super cute in it.)   e: fixed Blaziken386 fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Jan 17, 2015 |
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Jan 17, 2015 20:47
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Jan 17, 2015 21:08
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my partner is one of those few who liked Madoka more after watching Rebellion 
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Jan 27, 2015 19:18
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NoGoodNight posted:my partner is one of those few who liked Madoka more after watching Rebellion I'd argue that those people aren't few
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Jan 27, 2015 20:06
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PerrineClostermann posted:The show left questions about the universe and rebellion explored them in a self contained way, ending again with questions left about the universe in a similar way to the series. If they automate the process they'll have invented a Perpetual Anime Machine. gently caress you, nature!
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Jan 27, 2015 21:29
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I liked Rebellion, to me it was a case of finding the original ending satisfying because the big picture stuff really was quite satisfyingly done, like Madoka's arc or the themes of the series, but when faced with the plot of Rebellion and then going back to consider the ending of the series, I realized that the elephant in the room that spurs Rebellion in the first place that is, Homura taking the whole 'transcendent goddess' thing shockingly well really seemed kind of poorly done and handwaved away in the first place. To me, the original series is as much Homura's story as Madoka's anyway, and the focus (at least on rewatches/with hindsight) of most episodes, with some exceptions like the Sayaka-focused episodes and episode 12. So the utter lack of resolution for her in the series, both in the plot and personally/emotionally for her character, feels really weird to me now after Rebellion. I'm firmly on the side of Rebellion making perfect sense from a character-standpoint and vastly improving Homura's character because it acknowledges and builds on her faults and weaknesses as established in the series, rather than hand-waving them away in favor of a perfectly understanding and near-saintly depiction like series episode 12, where we're meant to believe that after going through all that she's perfectly content with a 'well Madoka got what she wanted...kinda sorta, guess I'm done here!' and also that she wouldn't have enormous baggage in general despite 12 episodes of evidence to the contrary. Also the Clara dolls were great.
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Jan 28, 2015 01:28
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Sometimes when I talk to people it feels like the impression of Rebellion is often colored by how they viewed Homura: If they saw her as totally hosed up then they had a much easier time accepting Rebellion.
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Jan 28, 2015 01:36
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