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Paragon8 posted:Please don't die like a chump, Chase Add to that a reminder that in order to use said map, one must "solemnly swear I am up to no good."
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Jan 14, 2015 03:37
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Eh, the cloak and map are tools of notorious mischief makers, but the series is for children, so Rowling isn't gonna have Harry go spy on Cho or anything. And much of the series is about the ethics of power, so having the cloak be intrinsically evil would be thematically inappropriate.
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Jan 14, 2015 03:43
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Pimpmust posted:You know I could have sworn I read some other fantasy series with a cloak that was optical camo+EVIIIIIL. Terry Brooks Shannara series maybe? Or that other, more generic fantasy writer that I can't recall the name of right now. You remember rightly, actually. This was Coll Ohmsford from the Scions of Shannara, where he stole a magic cloak that allowed him to go unseen and it corrupted the crap out of him, with the eventual goal of turning him into a "Shadowen" (yes really). Thankfully I had to look most of that up. I only remembered that it was definitely in the Shannara books somewhere.
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Jan 14, 2015 03:51
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Cyster posted:You remember rightly, actually. This was Coll Ohmsford from the Scions of Shannara, where he stole a magic cloak that allowed him to go unseen and it corrupted the crap out of him, with the eventual goal of turning him into a "Shadowen" (yes really). I entirely forgot this. Okay, yeah, this is a direct ripoff, because spoiler alert: the cloak is trying to turn Richard into a mriswith (they're all ex-war wizards), and later on he's going to do something that would be hilariously dumb under his influence if a deux ex machina didn't end the novel on killing them all.
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Jan 14, 2015 03:54
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Recall when I said Cara is a voice of reason? This sums up a lot.quote:Richard looked up into her dark eyes. “I know less about this bond, this steel against steel and magic against magic business, than I know about being a wizard, and I know next to nothing about being a wizard. I don’t know how to use magic.” So, I mean. It makes a lot of sense from their point of view. "We will give our lives for you because you saved ours plenty of times over already." There's also more about "Look. We WANT to serve you, because unlike your predecessors, you don't demand our service. We could leave if we wanted. We don't." That's a whole chapter! I would gripe more about this, but it ends on... actually a pretty good line. quote:“We’re glad you have decided to bond these men to you, Lord Rahl,” Cara said. He could hear them pulling things out of their packs. “You will be much safer with a whole army protecting you. After you have bonded them, we will all leave at once for D’Hara, where you will be safe.” By day's end, he's sworn every D'Haran in the city to him and bonded them. Not the worst start when in enemy territory.
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Jan 14, 2015 04:05
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DARKSEID DICK PICS posted:I entirely forgot this. This is one of the most bizarre things. Like it was a fair trade off to enough wizards to become ninja lizards that could turn invisible.
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Jan 14, 2015 04:05
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DARKSEID DICK PICS posted:I entirely forgot this. The Shadowen are all former normal people, mainly elves, who found the lost magic and were subverted by it. So, y'know, Goodkind's being original as always.
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Jan 14, 2015 04:07
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I honestly forget a lot of the middle Shanarra stuff. I remember the Word/Void half, and the Jerle Shanarra series, but I think that's where I stopped reading the new stuff, and I haven't looked at the original novels in over a decade. The fact that his books weren't all the same story told in every series like the Eddings' for most of their career* kept me from recalling them all so easily. Sword of Truth Book 3: I Will Write About Literally Anything Else In Writing This Up * not slamming them, especially with one dead, but I'll be damned if everything up to a certain point wasn't the same story over and over again, until about... Althalus? or so
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Jan 14, 2015 04:12
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Harry Potter is very much a product a culture which values individual ethics and friendships and is suspicious of imposition of communal identity. The cloak is a perfect symbol of privacy as a means of creating a space where the former is safe from the latter.
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Jan 14, 2015 04:16
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DARKSEID DICK PICS posted:Sword of Truth Book 3: I Will Write About Literally Anything Else In Writing This Up Nothing happens though. What are you going to put in your write up, 'they continued to do nothing for the whole book'? I mean, I hope you get through this because its fantastic to be revisited by all the dumb stuff i liked when i was younger but its not an easy topic to talk about. Has Zedd or Kahlan even shown up yet? kingcom fucked around with this message at 04:32 on Jan 14, 2015 |
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Jan 14, 2015 04:17
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Cyster posted:You remember rightly, actually. This was Coll Ohmsford from the Scions of Shannara, where he stole a magic cloak that allowed him to go unseen and it corrupted the crap out of him, with the eventual goal of turning him into a "Shadowen" (yes really). Terry Brooks can't name things, but at least his villains are actually unsettling in a Neverending Story kind of way. Wonder if Shannara being the future has anything to do with the SoT world being the past?
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Jan 14, 2015 04:17
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For a guy who apparently doesn't like fantasy books he sure reads and steals from a lot of fantasy books.
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Jan 14, 2015 04:24
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Yeah, I honestly don't mind the Shannara stuff. It's not amazingly innovative but I'm not always looking for that. Sometimes I just want a nice comfortable fantasy story where everything will turn out well in the end, and that's pretty much Brooks' stuff. It diverged there for a while with the Knight of the Word deal but these days it's back to all the usual. In contrast, I slogged through the end of SoT and have absolutely no desire to touch another book about it again. I'll gladly read DDP torturing himself going through them, though! 
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Jan 14, 2015 04:26
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DARKSEID DICK PICS posted:I entirely forgot this. Is there a trope for ripping off of a novel that ripped off of lord of the rings?
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Jan 14, 2015 04:32
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kingcom posted:Has Zedd or Kahlan even shown up yet? No. They first show up about three-fourths through the novel. Ann and Nathan are going to reappear before they do.
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Jan 14, 2015 04:34
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While we're talking about the symbolism of invisibility, discarding the invisibility cloak is, surprisingly, thematically appropriate. Like other Objectivists and Libertarians, Richard/Goodkind is basically a teenager who read Nietzsche and thought "I'm already the Ubermensch, so everyone should give me power to do great things." Well, I doubt Goodkind read Nietzsche, but he came by it by way of Ayn Rand. The Ubermensch is a very public figure who creates a radically new way of living as an example of human potential. The Randian Ubermensch already thinks they are an example of human potential and that the way of living they were born into is just fine, and if the powerful would just recognize the former and the marginalized would just obey the rules, they would be be able to prove that to everyone. Narcissists hate the idea of being invisible. They'll be secretive, but only when they lack what they really want, which is unquestioning adulation. e: that is why their greatest threat is to withdraw their presence and wait for you to beg them to come back. And their greatest fear is to vanish and be forgotten, which I believe is central to the final story arc and the "real world" spinoff. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 05:01 on Jan 14, 2015 |
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Jan 14, 2015 04:57
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Oh gods, I just now noticed this thread. I started reading the series a few months ago, I didn't know any better and picked them up so I would have stuff to read at work. What a loving mistake that was. Of course, I'm a literary masochist, so now that I'm invested, I have to see it through to the end. I'm about halfway through Faith of the Fallen right now. Its just so...dumb. Stone of Tears set the warning bells off in my head, but I think it was Temple of the Wind that it finally hit me: I'm reading Dominic Deegan all over again. If you read it or any of the hate threads, you know this can only be meant in the worst loving way. Especially the scene where everyone HAS to gently caress, and they HAVE to enjoy it, or else the Temple will never show up and everyone will die. The protagonists are beyond reproach, and their opinions and views on everything are absolutely correct and 100% vindicated, no matter how convoluted a path of bullshit they need to tread for it to happen. Is it just me, or does Richard's greatest power seem to be the ability to become a confrontational, petulant rear end in a top hat at the slightest hint of someone disagreeing with him?
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Jan 14, 2015 05:31
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I sometimes wonder if reading this series as a kid innoculated me against the Ayn Rand craze of my generation.
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Jan 14, 2015 06:04
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the_steve posted:
The in story explanation for that is amazing too. Why does it require that? Because Darken Rahl was allowed to set the requirements for entry.
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Jan 14, 2015 06:04
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Bob Quixote posted:I read about 7 or 8 of those books back in highschool before giving up. I'd really enjoyed them and thought that the world and writing weren't bad, but it just got so bloated with more and more characters being introduced until the plot progression ground to a halt. Websites that provide chapter summaries are your friend. Whenever a book comes out in a series I'm reading I usually like to do a quick summary read of what came before because my memory can be extremely selective (read: retarded) even about things I like and want to remember. Also, I've just caught up in this thread, I started reading it at work Christmas week since dick-all was happening. DDP, you are a prophet and saint, and we can't begin to repay your great sacrifice.
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Jan 14, 2015 06:15
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Shannara gets better later on? I started reading it, went "I just finished LOTR, and this is just a reskin of that", then dropped it. I have rarely found books that copied as exactly through about the first 100 pages as the first Shannara book.
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Jan 14, 2015 06:16
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Strong Mouse posted:Shannara gets better later on? I started reading it, went "I just finished LOTR, and this is just a reskin of that", then dropped it. I have rarely found books that copied as exactly through about the first 100 pages as the first Shannara book. From memory, there are two series of that, the first is real LotR, the second is "well, all this poo poo's dying and we, the bloodlines of those heroes, have to fix it", and then it turns into Final Fantasy because they straight up create crystal powered airships and begin discovering the ruins of a techno-civilization that was us, and it begins tying into Brooks' modern fantasy stuff which is GREAT.
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Jan 14, 2015 06:19
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Strong Mouse posted:I have rarely found books that copied as exactly through about the first 100 pages as the first Shannara book. You're not wrong, but let me introduce you to the Iron Tower trilogy.
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Jan 14, 2015 06:25
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Strong Mouse posted:Shannara gets better later on? I started reading it, went "I just finished LOTR, and this is just a reskin of that", then dropped it. I have rarely found books that copied as exactly through about the first 100 pages as the first Shannara book. The first book isn't all that great, but it's still distinct from LOTR in a bunch of IMHO meaningful ways (like the part where it's set in a post-apocalyptic future with giant toxic mecha-spiders. Pretty sure those aren't in LOTR!). After that they really don't have much in common at all. Or at least, they didn't for as far as I read. Looks like I stopped after the second cycle and there's been fricking 12 more explicitly Shannara-series books (with more on the way) since then. I vaguely recall really liking the sequel, The Elfstones of Shannara, which alternates between the elves fighting a losing battle against hordes of demons emerging from hell and the small band of desperate adventurers trying to replace the Macguffin that was preventing the demons from coming through originally, who are being hunted by an effectively invincible killing machine. And yeah, the Knight of the Word trilogy is pretty rad.
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Jan 14, 2015 07:06
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Nihilarian posted:For a guy who apparently doesn't like fantasy books he sure reads and steals from a lot of fantasy books. Or he reads online summaries. That might be how he is able to lift ideas whole sale while totally missing the themes that add meaning to the fantasy tropes. For all the discussion ITT about why invisibility is normally evil, or why is it sometimes not, I bet money Goodkind couldn't articulate any of it. (Violet from The Incredibles and the Invisible Boy from MysteryMen are another two invisible good guys. They turn invisible due to being incredible introverts who don't feel seen anyway. See? Power and theme, it's not loving hard, Terry.) Or maybe he does read them but the Objectivest mind set is so deep that it inoculated him against understanding them. That could be why he looks down on them so much. Wouldn't surprise me to learn that the fucker could look at the Hero's Journey and see only a numbered list.
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Jan 14, 2015 08:51
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Hodgepodge posted:While we're talking about the symbolism of invisibility, discarding the invisibility cloak is, surprisingly, thematically appropriate. Like other Objectivists and Libertarians, Richard/Goodkind is basically a teenager who read Nietzsche and thought "I'm already the Ubermensch, so everyone should give me power to do great things." Well, I doubt Goodkind read Nietzsche, but he came by it by way of Ayn Rand. This definitely ties in with the abhorrence of the mriswrith gradually subsuming Richard's identity as he starts becoming one. Not only is it body horror in turning him into a creature but it's tearing away the ubermensch identity and making him part of the collective.
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Jan 14, 2015 16:36
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malkav11 posted:The first book isn't all that great, but it's still distinct from LOTR in a bunch of IMHO meaningful ways (like the part where it's set in a post-apocalyptic future with giant toxic mecha-spiders. Pretty sure those aren't in LOTR!). After that they really don't have much in common at all. Or at least, they didn't for as far as I read. Looks like I stopped after the second cycle and there's been fricking 12 more explicitly Shannara-series books (with more on the way) since then. I vaguely recall really liking the sequel, The Elfstones of Shannara, which alternates between the elves fighting a losing battle against hordes of demons emerging from hell and the small band of desperate adventurers trying to replace the Macguffin that was preventing the demons from coming through originally, who are being hunted by an effectively invincible killing machine. Elfstones suffers from exceptionally bad dialogue, which doesn't surprise me from an author's second novel. Wishsong gets better, and the whole idea of the Elfstones altering the Ohmsford bloodline is interesting. I also like how the Leah/Ohmsford friendships play out over numerous generations. The Word and Void novels are excellent and Brooks' best work, as far as I'm concerned. When I say excellent, I mean they are excellent works of fiction, not excellent for the genre. He really transcended there for those three books. the_steve posted:Oh gods, I just now noticed this thread. The younger me had a harder time seeing how dumb it was, really. I think I was too naïve to really notice the Objectivist rants, although a lot of the gratuitous bullshit did wear thin (which is why I quit reading them). Don't we eventually find out The sword does gently caress all and its been Richard's magic, all along? I may be remembering something else, there.
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Jan 14, 2015 23:12
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AbsolutelySane posted:The younger me had a harder time seeing how dumb it was, really. I think I was too naïve to really notice the Objectivist rants, although a lot of the gratuitous bullshit did wear thin (which is why I quit reading them). Don't we eventually find out The sword does gently caress all and its been Richard's magic, all along? I may be remembering something else, there. IIRC, and this was probably the dumbest hamhamded plot twist in the series, the sword's magic is actually a requisite part of the Boxes of Orden, because it turns out in the last book you have to properly open them using it. Anything else always kills the person opening them.
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Jan 15, 2015 03:17
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President Ark posted:IIRC, and this was probably the dumbest hamhamded plot twist in the series, the sword's magic is actually a requisite part of the Boxes of Orden, because it turns out in the last book you have to properly open them using it. Anything else always kills the person opening them. That seems to completely undermine the original climax of the first book.
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Jan 15, 2015 03:35
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President Ark posted:IIRC, and this was probably the dumbest hamhamded plot twist in the series, the sword's magic is actually a requisite part of the Boxes of Orden, because it turns out in the last book you have to properly open them using it. Anything else always kills the person opening them. How many of Richard's wizard helpers knew all along?
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Jan 15, 2015 03:36
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Plague of Hats posted:That seems to completely undermine the original climax of the first book. Plague of Hats posted:That seems to completely undermine the original climax of the first book. This comes literally out of nowhere. Like, it's only revealed about paragraph before it actually happens. No foreshadowing at all.
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Jan 15, 2015 04:08
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Goodkind forgets plotlines by the end of page. It shouldn't be surprising he invalidated an entire book later on.
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Jan 15, 2015 05:17
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President Ark posted:IIRC, and this was probably the dumbest hamhamded plot twist in the series, the sword's magic is actually a requisite part of the Boxes of Orden, because it turns out in the last book you have to properly open them using it. Anything else always kills the person opening them. No way. It can't be that bad. Also why are they still trying to open boxes? Why hasn't Richard nobly offed himself to disappear the knowledge? Why hasn't someone summoned the ghost of George Cypher and magically compelled him to speak about box opening arrangements, I'm assuming that's possible because it would be suitably dramatic? These books man. 
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Jan 15, 2015 05:45
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Tommofork posted:No way. It can't be that bad. Also why are they still trying to open boxes? Why hasn't Richard nobly offed himself to disappear the knowledge? Why hasn't someone summoned the ghost of George Cypher and magically compelled him to speak about box opening arrangements, I'm assuming that's possible because it would be suitably dramatic? If I remember correctly, George never read them, and they have forget glyphs if you try to read them when you aren't a wizard.
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Jan 15, 2015 06:43
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I think George was Richard's step dad, who stole the Idiot's Guide to Opening Wizard Boxes book, memorised it, destroyed it, taught the book to Richard. Unless I'm getting it confused. Don't make me reread the thread from the start, I'm not sure how much Terry G I can take. 
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Jan 15, 2015 06:53
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Tommofork posted:I think George was Richard's step dad, who stole the Idiot's Guide to Opening Wizard Boxes book, memorised it, destroyed it, taught the book to Richard. Unless I'm getting it confused. Don't make me reread the thread from the start, I'm not sure how much Terry G I can take. He stole it, but he didn't read it. He made Richard read, memorise and destroy it.
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Jan 15, 2015 07:29
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malkav11 posted:He stole it, but he didn't read it. He made Richard read, memorise and destroy it. But he made sure Richard had read it by having Richard read it back to him.
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Jan 15, 2015 07:44
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Stallion Cabana posted:But he made sure Richard had read it by having Richard read it back to him. That's what I thought too, but no, this is really stupid but it actually doesn't contradict anything. The relevant quote's on page 3 of this thread (unless there's another quote elsewhere but ha ha ha, Goodkind revisiting a thing once it's served its purpose, yeah I'm sure that happens a lot) -- it doesn't specifically say that ol' George avoided knowing anything about the book's contents, but it says Richard memorized it by copying it out on paper while his dad was away and then burning the paper when he was done, and George made sure Dick was done by just straight-up asking him "are you done", and then Dick made sure for himself by rewriting it on paper from memory and burned the copies before saying "yes". Iny fucked around with this message at 08:01 on Jan 15, 2015 |
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Jan 15, 2015 07:59
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Iny posted:That's what I thought too, but no, this is really stupid but it actually doesn't contradict anything. The relevant quote's on page 3 of this thread (unless there's another quote elsewhere but ha ha ha, Goodkind revisiting a thing once it's served its purpose, yeah I'm sure that happens a lot) -- it doesn't specifically say that ol' George avoided knowing anything about the book's contents, but it says Richard memorized it by copying it out on paper while his dad was away and then burning the paper when he was done, and George made sure Dick was done by just straight-up asking him "are you done", and then Dick made sure for himself by rewriting it on paper from memory and burned the copies before saying "yes".
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Jan 15, 2015 10:31
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So it's just coming up for the first time because WHY NOT TELL YOU BEFORE NOW, but apparently Tobias Brogan is both a member of the Imperial Order, AND the Blood of the Fold. What a charmer. He interviews various people out of suspicion that the Mother Confessor is still alive because... I don't actually know why he suspects this. I guess so that we have an antagonist. Eventually, he gets to the grandmother who talked about HER LAZY SON.quote:When the group came to a halt before the table, the girl smiled at him. “You’ve a very nice warm home, m’lord. We’ve enjoyed our day here. May we return your hospitality?” Blah blah you can see where this is going. She speaks open truth to power and doesn't fear him, pissing him off. In the middle, we get an explanation of what a death spell entails, because for some reason an old woman who makes honeycakes is a font of lore. (It is implied she has spent time at the Palace of the Prophets.) quote:“A death spell. And what, exactly, is a death spell?” He tells a lackey to capture them on their way out of the building, the girl and her grandma, and then, uh... this happens. quote:As Ettore dashed through the door, Galtero stepped impatiently forward, but waited silently before the table. WHYYYYYYYY can there not be a single villain in this series who isn't some sort of pervert on top of their everything else?
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Jan 15, 2015 11:15
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