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Drad_Bert posted:Not to be disruptive but the pigs in GIP hate this thread and probably conspired to take its last iteration down (as if this isn't common knowledge) This isn't helpful rhetoric.
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Jan 15, 2015 09:32
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SinistralRifleman posted:If you wonder why police respond to situations the way they do: The repeated citation of Dinkheller points to the rarity of the event. Police are not the only ones who face death in an instant, the only difference is they can behave with militarized impunity. 3-gun competitions encourage this mindset, as fun as they are.
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Jan 15, 2015 09:55
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SinistralRifleman posted:If you wonder why police respond to situations the way they do: It's pretty clear that is more evidence that police rile themselves up with statistically insignificant horror stories that foster an "us versus them" mentality and the result is a lot of dead people that didn't have to be killed rather than a sensible reason for police maleficence.
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Jan 15, 2015 14:56
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SinistralRifleman posted:If you wonder why police respond to situations the way they do: Should I swear at everyone that comes near me when I leave my mom's basement because one time a person was murdered? I live "in" Chicago the chances are probably pretty high! A guy got stabbed to death behind my apartment once! Get the gently caress away from me I'm gonna loving swear at you! anonumos posted:"Bad apple." hahahaha Dum Cumpster fucked around with this message at 15:11 on Jan 15, 2015 |
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Jan 15, 2015 15:05
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SinistralRifleman posted:If you wonder why police respond to situations the way they do: "Bad apple."
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Jan 15, 2015 15:10
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SedanChair posted:The repeated citation of Dinkheller points to the rarity of the event. Police are not the only ones who face death in an instant, the only difference is they can behave with militarized impunity. For a forum that concerns itself with being culturally aware, you show little regard for being aware of the reasons behind why police are responding the way they are today. No doubt that video of the Flagstaff officer will be shown to another generation of police officers as a training tool (I notice you chose not to address that one). Dinkheller is cited because it's one of the few fully documented on video. Police deaths at the hands of criminals used to be more common. Now traffic accidents are the most common cause of death, followed by responding to domestic violence situations,. Society has to decide what it actually wants from the police. If you expect them to be proactive and deal with criminals, it is unlikely they will actually do that job or be able to without certain immunities. If you want them to be held accountable the same as average citizens, they they have to be given the option to opt out and say "this isn't worth the risk". I don't think the public would like that in the end unless they were also empowered to defend themselves more across the country: but the people here are largely against that as well. quote:3-gun competitions encourage this mindset, as fun as they are. Neither article referenced 3 gun competition so I assume you're referencing it because I shoot 3 gun myself. Not sure where or if you shoot 3 gun, but most aren't scenario based and are simply solving technical shooting problems under stress. If I had a choice between the NYPD that shoots and hits multiple innocent bystanders because of lack of training and practice and police that consistently hit what they're aiming at, I'll pick the latter. Dum Cumpster posted:Should I swear at everyone that comes near me when I leave my mom's basement because one time a person was murdered? I live "in" Chicago the chances are probably pretty high! A guy got stabbed to death behind my apartment once! Get the gently caress away from me I'm gonna loving swear at you! You could structure the way you live to avoid confrontations or minimize them (same as police using defensive tactics) Or you could move to a safer area (same as just telling the police to quit if they feel unsafe) but that may not be economically viable for you (or for individual officers) SinistralRifleman fucked around with this message at 15:40 on Jan 15, 2015 |
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Jan 15, 2015 15:37
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SinistralRifleman posted:If you want them to be held accountable the same as average citizens, they they have to be given the option to opt out and say "this isn't worth the risk". They already have this. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html?_r=0
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Jan 15, 2015 15:41
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Radish posted:It's pretty clear that is more evidence that police rile themselves up with statistically insignificant horror stories that foster an "us versus them" mentality and the result is a lot of dead people that didn't have to be killed rather than a sensible reason for police maleficence. The question to ask is why are they statistically insignificant, is it because of the tactics and procedures police generally use or is it because they're simply insignificant?
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Jan 15, 2015 15:41
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SinistralRifleman posted:The question to ask is why are they statistically insignificant, is it because of the tactics and procedures police generally use or is it because they're simply insignificant? I guess the next question is exactly how many lives are a cop's worth?
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Jan 15, 2015 15:42
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SinistralRifleman posted:Dinkheller is cited because it's one of the few fully documented on video. Police deaths at the hands of criminals used to be more common. Now traffic accidents are the most common cause of death, followed by responding to domestic violence situations,. Society has to decide what it actually wants from the police. If you expect them to be proactive and deal with criminals, it is unlikely they will actually do that job or be able to without certain immunities. If you want them to be held accountable the same as average citizens, they they have to be given the option to opt out and say "this isn't worth the risk". I don't think the public would like that in the end unless they were also empowered to defend themselves more across the country: but the people here are largely against that as well. Uh I'm pretty sure nobody here expects police officers to operate under the same laws as ordinary citizens, people expect them to do their job in an ethical way. Which, again, works fairly well in other countries.
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Jan 15, 2015 15:44
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SinistralRifleman posted:Police deaths at the hands of criminals used to be more common. When, please, was there a high period of police officer death at the hand of criminals? Prohibition?
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Jan 15, 2015 15:44
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SinistralRifleman posted:If you expect them to be proactive and deal with criminals This is not in any way, shape or form the role of police in the liberal republic, this is a nonsensical fantasy peddled by comics. All that proactive police evokes to me is Javert. Agnosticnixie fucked around with this message at 15:53 on Jan 15, 2015 |
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Jan 15, 2015 15:45
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SinistralRifleman posted:You could structure the way you live to avoid confrontations or minimize them (same as police using defensive tactics) Sorry, for some reason I thought you were responding to people saying that the police should be more respectful when talking to people, not swearing at them and all. I get that they are in more dangerous situations than most people. Even if the chance is slight they're constantly worried about it. But I was saying a couple pages ago that when they are in those situations, they shouldn't run in by themselves and put everyone at risk. We're talking about change in policing so I think more money needs to be spent on it so that officers feel comfortable in these situations with better training (if it exists, I don't know?) and more than one guy responding to calls. I also think we should take all the money from the drug war and spend it on rehab, education, and job training in low income areas but that's never going to happen.
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Jan 15, 2015 15:50
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SinistralRifleman posted:Police deaths at the hands of criminals used to be more common. When and where are you pulling that? Places that I've lived or applied to PDs more cops were killed in auto or motorcycle accidents than were killed by criminals.
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Jan 15, 2015 15:51
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Gravel Gravy posted:When and where are you pulling that? Places that I've lived or applied to PDs more cops were killed in auto or motorcycle accidents than were killed by criminals. spoiler alert: his butthole
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Jan 15, 2015 16:07
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Very few firefighters die every year, this doesn't mean fire isn't dangerous or that all the precautions and equipment they use unnecessary.
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Jan 15, 2015 16:15
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Jarmak posted:Very few firefighters die every year, this doesn't mean fire isn't dangerous or that all the precautions and equipment they use unnecessary. This analogy isn't applicable unless firefighters are throwing people into the fire to make sure it isn't hot enough to kill them.
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Jan 15, 2015 16:19
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Jarmak posted:Very few firefighters die every year, this doesn't mean fire isn't dangerous or that all the precautions and equipment they use unnecessary. So to prevent fires, firefighters should perform controlled demolitions of buildings they don't like so that they never have the chance to catch on fire.
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Jan 15, 2015 16:21
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Radish posted:This analogy isn't applicable unless firefighters are throwing people into the fire to make sure it isn't hot enough to kill them. That doesn't change the analogy at all
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Jan 15, 2015 16:34
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Gravel Gravy posted:So to prevent fires, firefighters should perform controlled demolitions of buildings they don't like so that they never have the chance to catch on fire. You realize they do this right?
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Jan 15, 2015 16:35
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Jarmak posted:That doesn't change the analogy at all Your analogy is still bad. Just because firefighters take precautions which result in their safety, it doesn't have anything to do with if over aggressive police actions actually make their jobs safer.
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Jan 15, 2015 16:41
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Radish posted:Your analogy is still bad. Just because firefighters take precautions which result in their safety, it doesn't have anything to do with if over aggressive police actions actually make their jobs safer. Of course not. At the same time, you have what evidence they don't? Being paranoid as hell most likely does make them safer - the real question (to borrow Jarmak's analogy) is whether they're doing controlled demolitions only of buildings that pose a real danger to occupants and surroundings, or whether they're demolishing all the black buildings because they're scared of the paint jobs even though they actually aren't a danger. And what the appropriate level of investigation of the buildings structural stability is prior to demolition. It's actually a really depressing analogy!
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Jan 15, 2015 16:44
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Jarmak posted:You realize they do this right? That also face real punishment if they did. So your comparison is still off by a wide margin & is stupid.
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Jan 15, 2015 16:49
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Jarmak posted:Very few firefighters die every year, this doesn't mean fire isn't dangerous or that all the precautions and equipment they use unnecessary. Analogies are always bad but this one is especially horrible. That's like saying very few people die of exposure in the US every year and yet houses remain necessary. The technologies and precautions and equipment firefighters employ are employed against an environmental hazard, whereas for police they're employed against fellow citizens. Firefighters can't, except in tenuous circumstances if you want to be tendentious, cause the deaths of other people in protecting themselves. Police can. So the debate, no matter what side you're on, isn't helped by this analogy.
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Jan 15, 2015 16:50
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Jarmak posted:You realize they do this right? Firefighters also break out car windows when it isn't necessary as a form of vigilante justice.
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Jan 15, 2015 17:01
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Gravel Gravy posted:When and where are you pulling that? Places that I've lived or applied to PDs more cops were killed in auto or motorcycle accidents than were killed by criminals. There is data laying around at places like this: NLEO which some might accuse of a bias. A cursory look at BLS data indicates the if any favorable slants have been taken, it isn't much. Even though being a cop isn't statistically more dangerous than other professions, homicide is such a personal thing and it seems preventable, so it causes outrage. Also, older data shows taxi drivers have it the worst.
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Jan 15, 2015 17:16
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Jarmak posted:You realize they do this right? Firefighters demolish buildings because the owner looks at them the wrong way, they missed the fire extinguisher recharge dates, or it doesn't fit the village's rustic aesthetic? Maybe we should have a thread on corrupt firefighters! Unless you mean planned demolitions of condemned or unsafe structures, in which case, yeah?
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Jan 15, 2015 17:18
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Gravel Gravy posted:Firefighters demolish buildings because the owner looks at them the wrong way, they missed the fire extinguisher recharge dates, or it doesn't fit the village's rustic aesthetic? Maybe we should have a thread on corrupt firefighters! They'll let your home burn if you don't pay your $75 fee. http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2011/12/07/9272989-firefighters-let-home-burn-over-75-fee-again
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Jan 15, 2015 17:22
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Pope Guilty posted:This isn't helpful rhetoric. But did you die?
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Jan 15, 2015 17:23
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ayn rand hand job posted:They'll let your home burn if you don't pay your $75 fee. #trailerhomesmatter
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Jan 15, 2015 17:24
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ayn rand hand job posted:They'll let your home burn if you don't pay your $75 fee. they were right to do so, gently caress free riders
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Jan 15, 2015 17:38
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ayn rand hand job posted:They'll let your home burn if you don't pay your $75 fee.
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Jan 15, 2015 17:42
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"Hello, State Farm? Yeah, I'd like to purchase fire insurance" *looks out at pile of burning posessions in yard*
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Jan 15, 2015 17:48
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ayn rand hand job posted:They'll let your home burn if you don't pay your $75 fee. quote:Bell and her boyfriend said they were aware of the policy, but thought a fire would never happen to them. How much you want to bet that if a levy came up on the ballot to fund firefighting services for the entire county, they would have voted against it? I don't have any sympathy for them. They weren't maimed or killed, they just lost their bet that they wouldn't have a fire. It sucks that there is such a deeply dysfunctional rural community that simply refuses to pay for the most basic services. Maybe Tennessee's legislature should pass a state constitutional amendment requiring all counties to collect taxes for the provision of firefighting services (whether provided directly by the county government, or contracted to city governments), but until then I don't see why the citizens of a city should be asked to provide for a bunch of deadbeats.
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Jan 15, 2015 18:40
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I should start a bluegrass Belle & Sebastian cover band called Bell and her Boyfriend.
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Jan 15, 2015 18:47
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Cop stuff: Here's a rising star cop in Baltimore that reported police brutality and was run off the force for it: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/ex-baltimore-labeled-rat-police-brutality-claim-article-1.2077632 Here's cool, fun footage of the police rolling up to a crowd of celebrating college kids who are in the street and indiscriminately dousing them with pepper-spray and tear-gassing them (in full camo military gear) to get them to leave: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDHuQ8pylmA
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Jan 15, 2015 19:01
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Obdicut posted:Analogies are always bad but this one is especially horrible. That's like saying very few people die of exposure in the US every year and yet houses remain necessary. This is exactly what I'm saying, because people are using that statistic about cop deaths to say exactly the opposite. Pointing out cases where police use this danger as cover to do bad things does not mean the danger does not exist. Nor does it hold any relevance to the analogy or point I was making.
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Jan 15, 2015 19:08
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SinistralRifleman posted:And then just from a few weeks ago: quote:He was killed while investigating a domestic violence incident.
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Jan 15, 2015 19:33
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Jarmak posted:This is exactly what I'm saying, because people are using that statistic about cop deaths to say exactly the opposite. Sorry, you purposefully used a bad analogy because... you lost me. I was not saying the 'people die of exposure' thing was a good analogy, either. None of them are good analogies.
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Jan 15, 2015 19:36
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Cop stuff: JFC cops are literally the worst people. There's no bad apples on police forces, only a few good apples that get turned or run of the job.
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Jan 15, 2015 20:16
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