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This thread got me to spend some of my Chanukah money on a kindle version of LotR and the Simarillion. So thank you all for re-igniting my interest.
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Jan 12, 2015 20:39
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The Silmarillion is fantastic fuel for an imaginative mind, if you don't mind the "undramatic" telling of the tale. Read that thing cover to cover way back when and it was fun as hell.
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Jan 12, 2015 21:17
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BatteredFeltFedora posted:Yeah, Aulë himself also defied the will of Ilúvatar when he created the Dwarves, so a rebellious streak in his Maiar isn't totally a surprise. Ulmo's the broest, though.
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Jan 14, 2015 11:27
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There are pretty detailed explanations as to the origin of Elves, Men, Dwarves and Orcs, but do we get an explanation to how Hobbits got created?
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Jan 14, 2015 18:48
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Short answer is no. Long answer is they probably came from Men.
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Jan 14, 2015 19:04
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The hobbits who live west of the misty mountains migrated there sometime in the third year, I don't remember when but it was probably early? Before that ^^^ like he said. Also Smeagol was a "hobbit" kind of dude, and he was run out of his home "only" like 300-500 years before lotr, so that suggests there were hobbit like dudes living there, and maybe still in the vale of the anduin. After the hobbit, it talks about how the woodsmen flourish between mirkwood and the misty mountains, or "flourish" or whatever. So maybe they were related to them? Oh but does Beorn know that bilbo is a hobbit or is he like wtf that would answer some questions I guess.
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Jan 14, 2015 19:58
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concerned mom posted:Short answer is no. Long answer is they probably came from Men. I guess it's one of those things that thematically are best left unexplained. If all the great powers of Middle Earth don't know the full deal behind the Hobbits are, then why would the reader know?  My fan theory is Tom Bombadil did it.
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Jan 14, 2015 21:05
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I read somewhere at some point that Hobbits started off as basically short humans who formed into a gypsy group, bred with each other, moved west and eventually just became their own race.  Also now that I'm back home I'm going to get back into my book.
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Jan 14, 2015 22:54
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I hope this question hasn't been asked before, I read the entire thread looking for an answer. What's the deal with the blue wizards? I looked on Wikipedia and it pretty much said the blue wizards travelled east to fight Sauron's army. Did Tolkien write any footnotes or comments on these wizards? I find it weird that he would mention five wizards, yet he only talked about Saruman and Gandalf.
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Jan 15, 2015 00:03
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John Yossarian posted:I hope this question hasn't been asked before, I read the entire thread looking for an answer. What's the deal with the blue wizards? I looked on Wikipedia and it pretty much said the blue wizards travelled east to fight Sauron's army. Did Tolkien write any footnotes or comments on these wizards? I find it weird that he would mention five wizards, yet he only talked about Saruman and Gandalf. I think the two blue wizards went into the distant east and did... something outside of the scope of the LOTR narrative. One theory is that they failed and became mystery cult lords, like Saruman became a mechanization maniac, who later left the seeds of future religions, or else that they kept Sauron from accumulating vast armies in at least that area. I read something once about the consideration on whether all the other wizards "fell" like Saruman or just "failed." Radagast got discussed; if he did 'fall' it was probably less bad than Saruman since he just got distracted/high rather than actively turning to evil.
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Jan 15, 2015 00:08
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John Yossarian posted:I hope this question hasn't been asked before, I read the entire thread looking for an answer. What's the deal with the blue wizards? I looked on Wikipedia and it pretty much said the blue wizards travelled east to fight Sauron's army. Did Tolkien write any footnotes or comments on these wizards? I find it weird that he would mention five wizards, yet he only talked about Saruman and Gandalf. There's an essay on the five wizards in Unfinished Tales. Basically, as wizards they never had names, explicitly, to the point where Tolkien once said that the only references in LotR that weren't "real", as in referred to other things he'd written already, were the names of the two blue wizards and Aragorn's reference to "the cats of Queen Beruthiel." Later he said that they likely went into the far east -- their job was to go into occupied territory, as it were -- and likely died there. That said, in the Unfinished Tales there is reference to a sketch of a short story that Tolkien wrote out, where the Valar picked out the Maia to send as messengers into Middle Earth. There the names of the five Maia sent are Curumo (of the Maiar of Aule), Aiwendil (of the Maiar of Yavanna), Olorin (of the Maiar of Manwe?), Alatar, and Pallando. Of those five, Curumo is Saruman, Gandalf is Olorin, Aiwendil is Radagast, and Alatar and Pallando are the two blues.
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Jan 15, 2015 00:16
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Nessus posted:Saruman, Gandalf, AND RADAGAST... I think we discussed earlier in the thread at some point that Radagast technically failed, but didn't fall. He didn't fall victim to pride like Saruman did, but he definitely failed in the sense that he got distracted by the living things of Middle-earth and put all his energies into that instead of opposing Sauron like he was sent to.
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Jan 15, 2015 00:44
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One of the major changes that the movies make is Sam never put on the Ring. I get why the change was made-the way it's portrayed putting it on was treated like turning on a homing beacon for the Ring Wraiths, and it would have been a plot hole for Sam to use the Ring without consequence. But that just raises another question-why is Sam able to get away with it in the book? I remember that in the book the Ring doesn't quite have the same klaxon-like effect it had in the movies, but when Frodo puts the Ring on at Mount Doom it immediately alerts Sauron to where it is.
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Jan 15, 2015 02:03
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Sauron immediately knows where Frodo is when he puts the ring on in Mount Doom because Frodo claims the ring then. I guess Sauron and the ring are so interconnected that as soon as someone else claims the ring's power, he's instantly aware of it/its location. When Sam wore the ring, he wasn't claiming it, and wasn't technically within the borders of Mordor yet, which apparently made it more difficult for Sauron to sense the ring's location as well.
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Jan 15, 2015 02:36
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SirPhoebos posted:There are pretty detailed explanations as to the origin of Elves, Men, Dwarves and Orcs, but do we get an explanation to how Hobbits got created? Hobbits are just a different kind of Man, is the impression I got from the Letters. Radio! posted:Sauron immediately knows where Frodo is when he puts the ring on in Mount Doom because Frodo claims the ring then. I guess Sauron and the ring are so interconnected that as soon as someone else claims the ring's power, he's instantly aware of it/its location. When Sam wore the ring, he wasn't claiming it, and wasn't technically within the borders of Mordor yet, which apparently made it more difficult for Sauron to sense the ring's location as well. Sauron can still draw upon the power in the One, though less of it and without the special powers of the One, so long as it remains unmastered by anyone else. So someone laying claim to it would be immediately detected because they're attempting to tear a large part of Sauron's spirit out psychically. If anyone succeeded at this task, then Sauron would be in the same position as if it were destroyed, and would be dispersed to the ends of Arda and remain a voice on the wind until One thing that also is probably important is that Sam rejects the One directly and so probably drew on much less of its power than Frodo did (the invisibility effect was built into all of the Rings, since it's a byproduct of forcing the person into the spiritual realm when they put it on).
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Jan 15, 2015 03:27
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SirPhoebos posted:One of the major changes that the movies make is Sam never put on the Ring. I get why the change was made-the way it's portrayed putting it on was treated like turning on a homing beacon for the Ring Wraiths, and it would have been a plot hole for Sam to use the Ring without consequence. But that just raises another question-why is Sam able to get away with it in the book? I remember that in the book the Ring doesn't quite have the same klaxon-like effect it had in the movies, but when Frodo puts the Ring on at Mount Doom it immediately alerts Sauron to where it is. Because Sam doesn't want it. That's what I've thought, anyways. Out of all the various people in the book, every-loving-body Frodo meets wants the Ring for themselves, or is at least tempted very strongly. Gandalf, Gollum, Galadriel, Boromir... Even Frodo himself wants to keep the thing, in the end. But not Sam. He just wanted to meet some Elves, throw the thing into the volcano, and go home. 
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Jan 15, 2015 05:38
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Spoilers Below posted:Because Sam doesn't want it.
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Jan 15, 2015 05:55
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Spoilers Below posted:Because Sam doesn't want it. Yeah, that's it I think. Uniquely among the ringbearers, Sam genuinely doesn't want it, at all. Even when he puts it on it's out of necessity and he doesn't think of it as "his." That said, I think Sauron notices when Frodo wears it because Frodo has claimed it for his own and he's at the center of Sauron's power. He's standing on the Mordor equivalent of the White House lawn.
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Jan 15, 2015 05:58
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Spoilers Below posted:Because Sam doesn't want it. I think it also demonstrates Sam's psyche - he's so ingrained in his "I'm just a servant" mentality that he sees straight through the Ring's illusions. It shows him the hero he could be thanks to the Ring, and he knows pretty much instantly that it's entirely false and so rejects it completely.
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Jan 15, 2015 06:46
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Spoilers Below posted:Because Sam doesn't want it.
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Jan 15, 2015 10:11
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Radio! posted:When Sam wore the ring, he wasn't claiming it, and wasn't technically within the borders of Mordor yet, which apparently made it more difficult for Sauron to sense the ring's location as well. Does anyone other than Sam say this, or is it just something he reasons to himself? He does actually cross the border while wearing it and then takes it off again. quote:He felt that he had from now on only two choices: to forbear the Ring, though it would torment him; or to claim it, and challenge the Power that sat in its dark hold beyond the valley of shadows. Already the Ring tempted him, gnawing at his will and reason. Wild fantasies arose in his mind; and he saw Samwise the Strong, Hero of the Age, striding with a flaming sword across the darkened land, and armies flocking to his call as he marched to the overthrow of Barad-dûr. And then all the clouds rolled away, and the white sun shone, and at his command the vale of Gorgoroth became a garden of flowers and trees and brought forth fruit. He had only to put on the Ring and claim it for his own, and all this could be. How boffo that he knows his place, what? That reads to me like Sam might have been able to use the Ring, possibly, to help him rescue Frodo, but he doesn't want to chance all the things that might also happen if he can't resist its influence.
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Jan 15, 2015 13:44
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It ties into the "humility brings wisdom" theme. The meek shall inherit and all that. Sam makes a very smart decision regarding the ring and rescues Frodo anyway.
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Jan 15, 2015 15:18
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I've always favored the interpretation that Radagast didn't fail, his mission was just slightly different from that of Gandalf et al. They were explicitly tasked with defeating Sauron; Radagast, iirc, was added on only as an afterthought following Yavanna's complaints that no one would protect the animals of Middle-Earth. His mission, then, was to do just that. He didn't need to saunter off to Barad-Dur and measure dicks with the Big Bad, he just needed to hang out in the forest and watch over his lil hedgehog buddies, which he did pretty drat well.
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Jan 15, 2015 20:05
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This is probably my dumbest question (or series of questions) thus far, but in Shadows of the Past, Gandalf says that an alternative way of destroying a Great Ring is to feed it to a dragon, but says that's not really an option because they're all dead and they probably couldn't digest the One Ring anyway. But what about that big dragon in the OP, which is the size of a mountain range. Could it have eaten the Ring? And does a dragon gain a Great Ring's power by eating it or does it just go right into dragon poop? And what do Rings taste like? And in the book did Smaug notice the Ring? I remember that he had a photographic memory of his loot pile but I don't recall that detail. And the movie gives the implication that Smaug recognizes the Ring for what it is. I guess  would keep that info to himself for the same reason he's tempted to let Thorin have the Arkenstone, but could a dragon try to claim the Ring (instead of eating it)?
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Jan 15, 2015 20:47
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That picture is an artist's rendition based on a line about ancalagon that said when he died he crushed the three peaks of uh... it's either angband or thangorodrim. Or something. They were these big ash mountains in front of Morgoth's lair. So I mean sure. Dragons were made by Morgoth who was Sauron's superior and dragons breath fire so I guess they've got fire in their bellies and that fire is probably pretty hardcore.
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Jan 15, 2015 20:58
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There's a line about Ancalagon the Black not being powerful enough to destroy the One Ring. I don't have the Council of Elrond in front of me though, someone pull the quote.
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Jan 15, 2015 21:33
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The Fellowship of the Ring posted:'Your small fire, of course, would not melt even ordinary gold. This Ring has already passed through it unscathed, and even unheated. But there is no smith's forge in this Shire that could change it at all. Not even the anvils and furnaces of the Dwarves could do that. It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring, the Ruling Ring, for that was made by Sauron himself. There is only one way: to find the Cracks of Doom in the depths of Orodruin, the Firemountain, and cast the Ring in there, if you really wish to destroy it, to put it beyond the grasp of the Enemy for ever.'
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Jan 15, 2015 21:58
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SirPhoebos posted:This is probably my dumbest question (or series of questions) thus far, but in Shadows of the Past, Gandalf says that an alternative way of destroying a Great Ring is to feed it to a dragon, but says that's not really an option because they're all dead and they probably couldn't digest the One Ring anyway. But what about that big dragon in the OP, which is the size of a mountain range. Could it have eaten the Ring? And does a dragon gain a Great Ring's power by eating it or does it just go right into dragon poop? And what do Rings taste like? I don't think Smaug noticed the Ring in the book of the Hobbit. I mean, if you think about it, how could he have seen it?
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Jan 15, 2015 22:01
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Ahhhhhh there we go! 
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Jan 15, 2015 22:07
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Does the idea of destroying something where it was made have any precedence in myth or folklore? For some reason that feels like it would be a very old idea that Tolkien drew upon, but I'm not familiar with any stories with that concept.
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Jan 15, 2015 22:12
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Lord Hydronium posted:Does the idea of destroying something where it was made have any precedence in myth or folklore? For some reason that feels like it would be a very old idea that Tolkien drew upon, but I'm not familiar with any stories with that concept. Can't say that I remember either.
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Jan 15, 2015 22:14
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SirPhoebos posted:This is probably my dumbest question (or series of questions) thus far, but in Shadows of the Past, Gandalf says that an alternative way of destroying a Great Ring is to feed it to a dragon, but says that's not really an option because they're all dead and they probably couldn't digest the One Ring anyway. But what about that big dragon in the OP, which is the size of a mountain range. Could it have eaten the Ring? And does a dragon gain a Great Ring's power by eating it or does it just go right into dragon poop? And what do Rings taste like? I believe that in the Silmarillion dragons are, at least by implication, Maiar / "spirits" of an order similar to the Balrogs; they aren't just pure animals, they're Maiar that Melkor shaped into a particular form, or maybe the progeny of maiar and beasts. This would fit in with the medieval lore and legends that Tolkien was drawing on -- in the modern era we tend to think of dragons as a particularly fancy kind of animal, but Tolkien's dragons aren't just animals with fire breath, they're living intelligences. That's part of why no other modern author has done a dragon as well as Smaug; everyone writing dragons today tries to just make them a fancy animal, and that's not terrifying. Specifically though I think there's a passage somewhere that says that not even Ancalagon the Black could have melted the One Ring. Edit: yeah that's the one.
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Jan 15, 2015 22:23
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Well thanks for answering my dumb question! EDIT: Ancalagon the Black is the big dragon in the OP, right? EDIT2: oh someone said that he was. go read comprehension SirPhoebos fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Jan 15, 2015 |
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Jan 15, 2015 22:48
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Nessus posted:I don't think Smaug noticed the Ring in the book of the Hobbit. That would have been an awesome What-If, though. Smaug, Winged Lord of Middle Earth.
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Jan 15, 2015 22:58
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I believe that in the Silmarillion dragons are, at least by implication, Maiar / "spirits" of an order similar to the Balrogs; they aren't just pure animals, they're Maiar that Melkor shaped into a particular form, or maybe the progeny of maiar and beasts. This would fit in with the medieval lore and legends that Tolkien was drawing on -- in the modern era we tend to think of dragons as a particularly fancy kind of animal, but Tolkien's dragons aren't just animals with fire breath, they're living intelligences. That's part of why no other modern author has done a dragon as well as Smaug; everyone writing dragons today tries to just make them a fancy animal, and that's not terrifying. Dragon's Dogma has a cool dragon.
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Jan 15, 2015 23:06
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I believe that in the Silmarillion dragons are, at least by implication, Maiar / "spirits" of an order similar to the Balrogs; they aren't just pure animals, they're Maiar that Melkor shaped into a particular form, or maybe the progeny of maiar and beasts. This would fit in with the medieval lore and legends that Tolkien was drawing on -- in the modern era we tend to think of dragons as a particularly fancy kind of animal, but Tolkien's dragons aren't just animals with fire breath, they're living intelligences. That's part of why no other modern author has done a dragon as well as Smaug; everyone writing dragons today tries to just make them a fancy animal, and that's not terrifying. Eh, Tolkien is one of the first Western authors to make dragons obviously intelligent in and of themselves. Fafnir took on a dragon's shape, the dragon Beowulf fought didn't talk, the dragon Jason killed was animalistic, the dragon St. George killed is of variable intelligence depending on the telling. Gandalf also implicitly endorses the Maiar origin in that passage by suggesting that dragon's fire weakens as they grow older, just like all Maiar weaken as they spend more time embodied and especially in a single form.
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Jan 16, 2015 00:24
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Olorin (of the Maiar of Manwe?) Yes, Olorin is of the Maiar of Manwe and referred to as the "Wisest of the Maiar". Which I always interpreted to mean, "Bad m-fer" as far as magical power goes since wise and magical knowledge tend to be synonymous. e: ^^^^ I like to think that there is some truth in the Dragon and St. George story. Probably some massive 20+ foot nile croc ended up in a lake in Libya and got a taste for human. Murgos fucked around with this message at 15:24 on Jan 16, 2015 |
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Jan 16, 2015 15:14
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webmeister posted:I think it also demonstrates Sam's psyche - he's so ingrained in his "I'm just a servant" mentality that he sees straight through the Ring's illusions. It shows him the hero he could be thanks to the Ring, and he knows pretty much instantly that it's entirely false and so rejects it completely. Absolutely. The language used is literally the "tend your own garden" Leibnizian Optimism that Voltaire made fun of/endorsed(?) so thoroughly in Candide, so it's easy to read in a pretty troubling view of class and mindset. Sam won't use the Ring because he knows his place in life, and won't rise above his station. At the same time, though, Tolkien is paying Sam an immense compliment: this places Sam on the level of other Ring refusers like "Literal Demi-God" Gandalf and "Neigh Immortal Ruler of the Elves" Galadriel, both of whom were far more tempted; neither of them even put the Ring on. And there's nothing wrong with wanting only what one can build and tend with one's own hands; it's certainly more admirable than using magical slave labor. And then, of course, after all the events are settled, he proceeds to be the hero of the Shire anyways, magic rings be damned. Toph Bei Fong fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Jan 16, 2015 |
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Jan 16, 2015 18:45
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Well, Merry and Pippin helped out a bit That scene is always kind of funny in a way. After Merry helps destroy Sauron's top captain and nearly immortal ring wraith, Pippin saves Faramir and helps protect Gondor from an invading horde, together they helped bring down Saruman, and Sam loving walked into Mordor itself and helped destroy the One Ring, they go back to the shire and are like "what the gently caress is this bullshit you really expect me to think this is some hot poo poo after what I've just been through? gently caress off and get out" Levitate fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Jan 16, 2015 |
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Jan 16, 2015 19:04
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Spoilers Below posted:Absolutely. A Marxist critic would have a field day with this aspect of LotR, yeah, but as with everything in Tolkien, he"s too good an author and resists simple analysis. Levitate posted:Well, Merry and Pippin helped out a bit Greatest tragedy of the films was that they cut the Scouring. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Jan 16, 2015 |
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Jan 16, 2015 19:31
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