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Ok, so, why would the Garden be concerned about Seifer hurting Galbadians and killing/taking the president hostage? We've been killing Galbadians since the game started, and Squall and team just tried to kidnap the president. Their mission is, specifically, to obtain independent for Timber from Galbadia, so it can safely be assumed that Squall would have to cause some significant and very public damage to Galbadia to do that. Why stop Seifer here? He's basically just fulfilling Garden's contract with the Owls (even if it's in an unexpected way). Also, I don't think the game ever says why this television broadcast actually worked. It's been established that TV signals have been blocked for the last 17 years, and I don't see how turning the broadcast tower back on would change that. Clearly the interference signals are still happening, and clearly they made the broadcast tower useless in the past (hence why it wasn't broadcasting). Also, yeah, why would anyone even be able to see this? There's been no TV for 17 years! That's like expecting everyone to still have a Betamax player sitting around JUST IN CASE something really great comes out on cassette tape.
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Jan 16, 2015 07:15
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Just a random thought, does the TV station screen change after a certain point in the game? (Thinking mainly after dealing with Adel. Is it even possible to get back to Timber afterwards given how the game treats the endgame?)
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Jan 16, 2015 07:16
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Schwartzcough posted:Also, yeah, why would anyone even be able to see this? There's been no TV for 17 years! That's like expecting everyone to still have a Betamax player sitting around JUST IN CASE something really great comes out on cassette tape. There's been no broadcast TV. They still have cable.
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Jan 16, 2015 08:06
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Spelling Mitsake posted:So he busted out of detention and she chased him. Then they caught a train under the ocean together, after which she chased him all the way to the TV studio? Schwartzcough posted:Also, I don't think the game ever says why this television broadcast actually worked. It's been established that TV signals have been blocked for the last 17 years, and I don't see how turning the broadcast tower back on would change that. Clearly the interference signals are still happening, and clearly they made the broadcast tower useless in the past (hence why it wasn't broadcasting). Yeah, there are some holes here. There are a lot of good things that can be said about this game, but "the plot makes total sense and even improves the more you think about it" is not one of them.
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Jan 16, 2015 08:37
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Schwartzcough posted:Ok, so, why would the Garden be concerned about Seifer hurting Galbadians and killing/taking the president hostage? We've been killing Galbadians since the game started, and Squall and team just tried to kidnap the president. Their mission is, specifically, to obtain independent for Timber from Galbadia, so it can safely be assumed that Squall would have to cause some significant and very public damage to Galbadia to do that. Why stop Seifer here? He's basically just fulfilling Garden's contract with the Owls (even if it's in an unexpected way). The best I can think of is that Siefer's not under contract but is still a Garden member. Trying to take on the Gardens because SeeD got hired to fight for Dollet or Timber is too likely to backfire by causing Garden to throw ALL the SeeDs at you at once (instead of a squad or two here and there), and it would easily cause trouble with the other two Gardens that he can't afford. What happened here is essentially Siefer issuing his own declaration of war that drags Balamb garden into the mess along with him. Because it's down to open fighting, Deling can strike openly against Garden and SeeD due to the actions of one of their members and their inability to control him.
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Jan 16, 2015 09:13
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A lot of these screenshots lead me to believe that nobody ever bothered to house-train Rinoa.
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Jan 16, 2015 09:15
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Schwartzcough posted:Ok, so, why would the Garden be concerned about Seifer hurting Galbadians and killing/taking the president hostage? We've been killing Galbadians since the game started, and Squall and team just tried to kidnap the president. Their mission is, specifically, to obtain independent for Timber from Galbadia, so it can safely be assumed that Squall would have to cause some significant and very public damage to Galbadia to do that. Why stop Seifer here? He's basically just fulfilling Garden's contract with the Owls (even if it's in an unexpected way). I'd also imagine that they just don't trust Seifer. He is way too much of a loose cannon and is a liability for the garden.
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Jan 16, 2015 09:42
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Kacie posted:I'd forgotten Rinoa isn't there - I agree, she might have been able to really turn this to her advantage. It's been said before that Squall is like a boy trying to act like he thinks an adult should; he does this by essentially cutting himself off emotionally. He tries not to engage with others whenever possible, he has little empathy, and whenever possible will shy away from making decisions. As Squall is a boy cut off from his emotions, Seifer is a boy controlled by his emotions. He is impatient, immediately responds to any perceived insult or challenge with aggression, and can't keep his cool. We've seen these in his leadership style, the way he treats those around him, both in the squad and in the disciplinary committee, and the fact that he scarred and nearly killed Squall in a simple sparring match. Seifer is a boy that desperately wants to be seen as a man by others. That's why this Witchy Woman was able to so easily manipulate him. All she had to do was call him a boy and Seifer's shell crumbled around him, then getting him to come with her was as easy as implying that she could make him a man (  ) if he followed her. Her initial statement that the boy would come and the man would back away, was simply the logical response to the situation. Seifer as a boy was easily riled up and tempted while the logical (read adult) response to the situation would be caution, to back away from the mysterious and super powerful woman that just appeared out of nowhere and incapacitated a trained fighter with a mere hand wave.
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Jan 16, 2015 09:47
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Spikey posted:There's been no broadcast TV. They still have cable. They have TVs, yes. However, it's not like TVs automatically turn on, switch input to to the tuner, and find the exact frequency Galbadia's broadcasting on the moment it starts. And all of this assumes that the fantasy coaxial cables hooked up to these TVs have some  allowing them to function just fine as antennas as well. Real life events like the analog to digital broadcast switch in the US make it make even less sense than it did in 1998. The switch took years of planning, subsidized equipment, and some people still didn't know it happened until their TVs went to static. In FF8's world, Galbadia had weeks (at best) to spread the word to the entire world with a communications infrastructure that was established as shaky at best.
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Jan 16, 2015 10:06
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Hell, what I don't get is why they didn't just let Seifer execute Deling after Zell let the cat out of the bag. Worst case scenario, they're locked in a war with a country that's probably going to have a massive power vacuum when the news leaks. Best case, Deling was the only one who heard, and the SeeDs are assumed to be a particularly good rebel group; Timber declares independence in the middle of the resulting clusterfuck, and the letter of their contract is fulfilled in record time.
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Jan 16, 2015 10:06
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Regalingualius posted:Hell, what I don't get is why they didn't just let Seifer execute Deling after Zell let the cat out of the bag. Worst case scenario, they're locked in a war with a country that's probably going to have a massive power vacuum when the news leaks. Best case, Deling was the only one who heard, and the SeeDs are assumed to be a particularly good rebel group; Timber declares independence in the middle of the resulting clusterfuck, and the letter of their contract is fulfilled in record time.
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Jan 16, 2015 10:11
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Cool Ghost posted:
It is creepy. And one of the better bits of foreshadowing that this game does. Squall's dialogue seems to imply, though, that people are universally aware that this is just what you get when you try to broadcast a radio frequency. "So yeah, turn on the TV anywhere and you just get something saying it's alive and won't let us forget it. Sucks, right? Oh well, what should we do for lunch?"
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Jan 16, 2015 12:00
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: This is creepy... What is it?
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I think they mentioned something about Cable communications.
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Jan 16, 2015 12:14
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Rigged Death Trap posted:I think they mentioned something about Cable communications. I think it might have actually been mentioned in the info dump in Squall's desk. It's also mentioned at some point that SeeD is routinely hired out to protect the cables from monsters.
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Jan 16, 2015 12:30
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Mazed posted:It is creepy. And one of the better bits of foreshadowing that this game does. Yeah I never noticed what the text said before. But if that's what it really says then it is all kinds of creepy, especially if you consider what's up with the radio wave interference and all that. Probably shouldn't say more than that but you guys who haven't played this before should remember this screen. Also I'm not really a fan of the crazy mix of high-tech superbuildings like the TV station when put next to the mid-1900's normal buildings in Timber. I get that the game's art direction is kinda out there, but it looks pretty silly like that, especially since it's presumably at least 17 years old.
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Jan 16, 2015 12:46
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Schwartzcough posted:Ok, so, why would the Garden be concerned about Seifer hurting Galbadians and killing/taking the president hostage? We've been killing Galbadians since the game started, and Squall and team just tried to kidnap the president. Their mission is, specifically, to obtain independent for Timber from Galbadia, so it can safely be assumed that Squall would have to cause some significant and very public damage to Galbadia to do that. Why stop Seifer here? He's basically just fulfilling Garden's contract with the Owls (even if it's in an unexpected way). Garden is a mercenary organization. Burning their bridges with Galbadia would be an extremely risky move, and they don't have the excuse of taking out a contract on the President's life, even. Also, the implication is that Squall was sent to train the Timber Owls into becoming an effective resistance force but Cid didn't say so outright, hoping Squall would pick up on that. There are events later in the story, without spoiling anything, that make it clear that radio broadcasting is still possible through the interference, so presumably it just requires an extremely powerful antenna (which is why Galbadia was modifying the Dollet array) to produce a clear TV signal through the noise. Cable is easier to use, even if it regularly gets damaged. But this is a publicity stunt. Galbadia is showing off its power and might by broadcasting through the interference. So they probably spent the last few weeks or whatever handing out free antennae to people in Galbadia proper and publicizing the broadcast so that other nations would be tuning in.
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Jan 16, 2015 16:12
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Honestly, all Zell did was vocalize what Deling would have figured out anyway. Seifer has a gunblade. Who uses gunblades? SeeDs. Not that hard to put 2 and 2 together.
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Jan 16, 2015 17:04
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loving Zell.
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Jan 16, 2015 17:25
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Effectronica posted:Garden is a mercenary organization. Burning their bridges with Galbadia would be an extremely risky move, and they don't have the excuse of taking out a contract on the President's life, even. Also, the implication is that Squall was sent to train the Timber Owls into becoming an effective resistance force but Cid didn't say so outright, hoping Squall would pick up on that. In all honesty, a group like SeeD would probably never last very long in the "real world." They are constantly conducting wartime operations that would seriously piss off nations, who would likely brand them a terrorist organization and just bomb the Gardens into the ground. Doing something like kidnapping a president is pretty much guaranteed to put you at the top of a nation's "to kill" list, and I really doubt nations would care whether Garden was "under contract". And yet Squall was fully authorized to do just that, without it being any sort of big deal. I guess you could argue their continued operation depends on them working "undercover", so it's not known who has been performing this operation. But honestly I doubt people would have a hard time figuring out where the teenage super-soldiers came from. Most of them even wear uniforms (except Squall's team, which is exempt from the dress code for some reason).
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Jan 16, 2015 19:18
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Schwartzcough posted:In all honesty, a group like SeeD would probably never last very long in the "real world." They are constantly conducting wartime operations that would seriously piss off nations, who would likely brand them a terrorist organization and just bomb the Gardens into the ground. Doing something like kidnapping a president is pretty much guaranteed to put you at the top of a nation's "to kill" list, and I really doubt nations would care whether Garden was "under contract". And yet Squall was fully authorized to do just that, without it being any sort of big deal. Well, that's why it's implied this was something Cid did on his own when Squall got the mission to start with. Condottieri were fairly tolerated until they started robbing and killing people on their own. There have been a number of times and places where mercenaries have been accepted as part of normal life. So it's not that hard to believe, given strict rules of engagement, that SeeD could exist, particularly when the backstory implies a bunch of tiny nations that aren't shown on the map where they could get involved with brush wars.
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Jan 16, 2015 19:41
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Hell, on rereading the latest update, didn't Quistis also kind of drop the ball by calling on "Timber team" and saying they had permission to come in? Not nearly as badly as Zell did, granted, but considering she said it on a broadcast that was going to get quite an audience before it cut out, it probably wouldn't take too long for some Galbadian higher-up to realize they obviously weren't just another homegrown rebel group, and make the Garden connection from there.
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Jan 16, 2015 20:17
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Kheldarn posted:Honestly, all Zell did was vocalize what Deling would have figured out anyway. Seifer has a gunblade. Who uses gunblades? SeeDs. Not that hard to put 2 and 2 together. As was previously established, SeeD does not use gunblades. Squall is the only SeeD gunblade specialist in the world. Seifer does too, but he's not a SeeD.
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Jan 16, 2015 20:32
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Zell has a Mike Tyson a tattoo on his face and is a martial artist who wears JNCOs. I'm pretty sure they were going to be found out.
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Jan 16, 2015 21:16
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Spelling Mitsake posted:So he busted out of detention and she chased him. Then they caught a train under the ocean together, after which she chased him all the way to the TV studio?
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Jan 16, 2015 21:24
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Quantum Toast posted:She chased him through the train tunnel Probably on a handcar. .
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Jan 16, 2015 21:37
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We could probably wank our way into justifying this worldwide broadcast, but it'd require FFVIII Tvs to work differently from any real-world models. We'd basically have to assume that, despite being 17 years since it was physically possible to broadcast, TVs are designed to scan radio frequencies and automatically display any signal besides the static it picked up. Which is loving nuts to say the least. I mean maaaaybe TVs are government issue and not privately manufactured? We are making a fuckton of assumptions at this point.
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Jan 16, 2015 21:50
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Schwartzcough posted:In all honesty, a group like SeeD would probably never last very long in the "real world." They are constantly conducting wartime operations that would seriously piss off nations, who would likely brand them a terrorist organization and just bomb the Gardens into the ground. Doing something like kidnapping a president is pretty much guaranteed to put you at the top of a nation's "to kill" list, and I really doubt nations would care whether Garden was "under contract". And yet Squall was fully authorized to do just that, without it being any sort of big deal. Most SeeDs wear uniforms in the game as a shorthand for the player that they're SeeDs, but it's in the dress code that uniforms aren't required wear. As far as assaulting the president, SeeD is a covert group, so they would probably just be disavowed by Garden if the army got their hands on them. Regalingualius posted:Hell, on rereading the latest update, didn't Quistis also kind of drop the ball by calling on "Timber team" and saying they had permission to come in? Not nearly as badly as Zell did, granted, but considering she said it on a broadcast that was going to get quite an audience before it cut out, it probably wouldn't take too long for some Galbadian higher-up to realize they obviously weren't just another homegrown rebel group, and make the Garden connection from there. The "Timber team" could really belong to anyone, and it's pretty clear that Quistis and Seifer are at cross-purposes, so it might take awhile to reach the conclusion that they're together and came from Balamb Garden. Zell's outburst identifies everyone as being both attached and from Garden. They'd probably be disavowed, too, though, if anyone ever asked. Edit: on the TV thing, just doing something for the first time in 17 years is pretty big news, and the point was probably more "look at how advanced and capable we are".
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Jan 16, 2015 21:50
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Keeshhound posted:Probably on a handcar. Wait, did they have one each, or was Seifer still on foot?
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Jan 16, 2015 21:56
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Quantum Toast posted:Even better! Actually Quistis was on foot. She'd junctioned Tornado to her speed though, so following wasn't an issue for her. They were behind a freight train, carrying bouncy, explosive barrels. But the barrels hadn't been strapped in to regulation and they fell off at regular intervals for the whole journey.
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Jan 16, 2015 22:02
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Spelling Mitsake posted:So he busted out of detention and she chased him. Then they caught a train under the ocean together, after which she chased him all the way to the TV studio? I don't think there's anything indicating that either of them just got into Timber. Presumably Seifer thought it was a good idea to help out in Timber, realised (or remembered from talking to RInoa) the Owls' target would be the president and knew he'd be doing the broadcast since everyone else knew that much. Quistis works out his motivation and hangs out near the station to stop him but can't before he runs in. They probably both got into town (at different times) while your party is off kidnapping and beating up the zombie fake president.
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Jan 16, 2015 22:06
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Strong Convections posted:I don't think there's anything indicating that either of them just got into Timber. As if anything that sensible could ever happen in FFVIII's world
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Jan 16, 2015 22:12
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Just imagine Quistis, standing on the train platform while Seifer waves goodbye because one of the Trepies was awkwardly hitting on her so she missed the train.
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Jan 16, 2015 22:20
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CmdrKing posted:We could probably wank our way into justifying this worldwide broadcast, but it'd require FFVIII Tvs to work differently from any real-world models. We'd basically have to assume that, despite being 17 years since it was physically possible to broadcast, TVs are designed to scan radio frequencies and automatically display any signal besides the static it picked up. Which is loving nuts to say the least. I mean maaaaybe TVs are government issue and not privately manufactured? We are making a fuckton of assumptions at this point. Alternately Galbadia announced in the regular media that they were going to try a radio broadcast, and everyone turned in to see if it would fail. Pretty much nobody makes a huge announcement without first telling people they're going to make a huge announcement, so they can get maximum eyeballs when it happens. Besides this kind of showy announcement is done more for the prestige of it than anything else. All they need people to know is they got radio working again (because they're that good and this is that important) and they've got a Sorceress who's going to enforce peace for them (because gently caress you.) They don't need every TV and eyeball in the world. Doesn't matter if the entire world can't watch as long as enough people do, word of mouth can do the rest.
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Jan 16, 2015 22:30
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MoadDib posted:It's been said before that Squall is like a boy trying to act like he thinks an adult should; he does this by essentially cutting himself off emotionally. He tries not to engage with others whenever possible, he has little empathy, and whenever possible will shy away from making decisions. I believe this is what the writers going for, with how hard they've worked to have Seifer and Squall be yin/yang. However, I don't feel like it fits with the other things we know about Seifer. I can believe she found his weakness, but what I can't fully believe is that she isn't working magic on him. It's been a while since I played, and I didn't finish the game, but from what we've seen, Seifer isn't dumb. He's a pretty smart guy, in fact. Later scenes - at least to me - feel like either he's heavily magicked, or he is really choosing to be a boy by not questioning/learning, or he's not as smart as he originally appeared. I don't like any of those 3 possibilities, and I end up feeling like I know what the writers wanted to do (ie, what you pointed out above), but not feeling like I'm sold on it when it comes to what we see in-play. On a different note, I think I know why the broadcast suddenly worked, and then just as suddenly failed.
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Jan 17, 2015 06:24
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Quantum Toast posted:Even better! I actually imagine it being like an old silent movie where Quistis starts out chasing Seifer, then suddenly they realize the train is coming, so they agree to a temporary truce and both crank the handcar to keep ahead of the train for something like 8 goddamned hours. With this playing in the background on continuous loop. Keeshhound fucked around with this message at 06:38 on Jan 17, 2015 |
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Jan 17, 2015 06:32
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Cool Ghost posted:
I don't think anybody called it out, but this is a pretty big gently caress-up by Zell too because it links the assassination attempt to Rinoa, blowing any cover the Owls might have been using. Also, if the Owls had wanted to kidnap and interrogate the President, that's now much more difficult because Galbadia would know who has him.
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Jan 18, 2015 02:46
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: I get it! You're Rinoa's...
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That assumes that people have heard of Rinoa, which is not clear.
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Jan 18, 2015 02:58
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ultrafilter posted:That assumes that people have heard of Rinoa, which is not clear. Zell still screwed up here, since he linked the terrorist incidents back to SeeD. One of his brighter moments it ain't. Variant_Eris fucked around with this message at 03:11 on Jan 18, 2015 |
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Jan 18, 2015 03:05
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drat, I hated Zell in that moment. He just had to shut up for 2 seconds and things would've been fine, but he was completely incapable of shutting the hell up.
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Jan 18, 2015 03:37
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Kacie posted:I believe this is what the writers going for, with how hard they've worked to have Seifer and Squall be yin/yang. However, I don't feel like it fits with the other things we know about Seifer. I can believe she found his weakness, but what I can't fully believe is that she isn't working magic on him. It's been a while since I played, and I didn't finish the game, but from what we've seen, Seifer isn't dumb. He's a pretty smart guy, in fact. Later scenes - at least to me - feel like either he's heavily magicked, or he is really choosing to be a boy by not questioning/learning, or he's not as smart as he originally appeared. I really want to come back to this very point, because - well, we've already seen how 8 spares no expense on character animation right? How body language and the like is used heavily? Some of Seifer's is relevant right here. It's really hard to make the connection but once you see it, it's the fedex arrow. So yeah, six months from now, remember this 
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