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Sagebrush posted:I call this one "Sagebrush and the Magical Disappearing Cush Drive" That's amazing. I do remember my Buddy going through those pretty regularly but I always changed them relatively early.
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Jan 17, 2015 01:05
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It blew my mind. I was expecting the cush drive to be bad, but not vaporized. My guess: So I bought the bike last year. The guy who sold it to me was a mechanic, who had bought it from the original owner intending to resell it -- so he did some tuneups but probably didn't go too deep. I am guessing that the green powder in there was the original cush drive from 1988, i.e. it had never been replaced and was already rock hard and partly worn. Some telltale marks inside the drive suggest to me that either the PO or the mechanic had probably noticed some slop at some point, but had just tightened the axle lock nut to "take it up" instead of replacing the rubbers. After I started riding the bike, it was only a matter of time before something inside loosened up enough to start the drive sliding back and forth again, and the rubbers were just so hard and brittle that they got pounded into nothing almost immediately. That's my theory, anyway, because I can't think of any other way for an apparently working cush drive to suddenly get loose and turn into dust in only a few hundred miles.
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Jan 17, 2015 01:31
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Fucknag posted:Not quite frozen, but about the viscosity of tar. Enough that the drag on the transmission layshaft is enough to stall the engine in neutral the first time he lets the clutch out. It doesn't even need to be that cold for STIs to do this. Usually below only about -20°C is enough. 5-speed Imprezas and WRXes definitely feel it but not to the extent of stalling out.
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Jan 17, 2015 02:25
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Screw anti-pollution idling regulations, I like to have my car's fluids up to at least summer cold-start temps before I hit the road in winter.
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Jan 17, 2015 03:10
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Seat Safety Switch posted:It doesn't even need to be that cold for STIs to do this. Usually below only about -20°C is enough. Jeeze, it was 4°C colder than that here last week and even though shifting was really clunky and felt awful, my Honda started and drove just fine in -11°F. What the hell do they put in their transmission that's so thick? I don't know if this counts as a mechanical failure since it's electrical, but Ford decided to have the wiring on their focus hatchbacks make a weird twist at the hatch joint so that it rubs and eventually destroys itself as you use the trunk
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Jan 17, 2015 03:38
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The Door Frame posted:Jeeze, it was 4°C colder than that here last week and even though shifting was really clunky and felt awful, my Honda started and drove just fine in -11°F. What the hell do they put in their transmission that's so thick? Regular GL-5 80W90 transmission oil probably. That stuff is like peanut butter at like 0F never mind the -47F in the video.
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Jan 17, 2015 03:40
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You would think that they would run a different fluid for climates that get that cold.
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Jan 17, 2015 04:08
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torpedan posted:You would think that they would run a different fluid for climates that get that cold. No. The onus is on you, the new car purchaser, to read every page of your owner's manual before operating your vehicle and select the correct fluid for your application whereupon your highly trained and professional [brand] dealer will fill the trans with the correct fluid from their special reservoir containing 20 different kinds of Genuine [brand] Fluids. Only this way can you prevent expensive repair bills and keep your [brand] warranty intact.
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Jan 17, 2015 04:12
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The other problem is that the transmission's operating temp will probably still be somewhere near normal once it's warmed up, meaning the oil still needs to be nearly the same viscosity. That means either an assload of viscosity modifiers or some really special snowflake unicorn-piss oil... or put up with super notchy operation until it's warmed up. Guess which they chose? (and then put a minimum operating temperature spec in the manual that says don't do that)
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Jan 17, 2015 04:20
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And what about idling it stone cold with the clutch pushed in on that awful thick engine oil, too. Must be hell on the bearings.
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Jan 17, 2015 04:23
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You do more damage idling the cars to warm them up instead of just driving. Give it a minute to circulate the oil and then just start driving normally. It will get up to operating temp faster and everything will get up to operating temp together.
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Jan 17, 2015 04:49
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The Door Frame posted:Jeeze, it was 4°C colder than that here last week and even though shifting was really clunky and felt awful, my Honda started and drove just fine in -11°F. What the hell do they put in their transmission that's so thick? 75W90. The Subaru manual trannies also have some odd mechanisms for oiling so I'm assuming that the pumping loss of having to splash oil the transmission doesn't help either.
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Jan 17, 2015 04:55
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Block heaters are basically a requirement at that latitude. He had one plugged in, but mentions it might have conked out. The heater will get you to where you don't need to worry too much about the engine oil, but it doesn't do anything for the trans. Or any differentials.
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Jan 17, 2015 05:27
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If I lived up there I'd probably modify some oven elements to suit, probably have to run 220v to where I park though.
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Jan 17, 2015 05:47
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My Forester will creep forward in neutral/clutch out when its around 0 or below when I first start it and shifting is downright impossible. I just let it warm up enough until the shifter moves without seeming like its going to break the linkage.
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Jan 17, 2015 06:08
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My '00 Legacy is like that too. The transmission is super cold-blooded. When it gets below freezing, starting it is fine since you have to engage the clutch anyway. But once you let it out, it's not happy and you must keep the parking brake engaged or it will start to drive in neutral as well. Also shifting feels like moving the handle of a knife jammed in a jar of peanut butter.
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Jan 17, 2015 06:43
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bull3964 posted:You do more damage idling the cars to warm them up instead of just driving. How does letting a car come up to temperature more gradually at idle do more harm than anything else? My car makes funny noises and I generally can't even get into 1st to take off from a stop when it is really cold. I definitely wouldn't consider driving normally.
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Jan 17, 2015 08:42
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The theory is that the longer the car spends running cold, the more damage is being done. Driving it makes it warm up faster and despite the additional wear of it being under load while cold, the faster warm up theoretically makes it worth it. I don't know what temperature the break point for this would be at and the only literature I've seen supporting this is old BMW owner's manuals that specifically said you should drive the car instead of idling it to temperature.
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Jan 17, 2015 08:53
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That is not how fatigue damage works. Edit for more info: There is an exponent on the amplitude thus small increases in the fatigue cycle amplitude cause significantly more damage and thus very low amplitude cycles like idling do not cause hardly any damage compared to the much higher amplitude cycles from driving. CarForumPoster fucked around with this message at 09:06 on Jan 17, 2015 |
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Jan 17, 2015 09:03
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The Door Frame posted:Jeeze, it was 4°C colder than that here last week and even though shifting was really clunky and felt awful, my Honda started and drove just fine in -11°F. What the hell do they put in their transmission that's so thick? kastein posted:Regular GL-5 80W90 transmission oil probably. That stuff is like peanut butter at like 0F never mind the -47F in the video. It depends on the year, but older Hondas (80s to early 00s for sure) used Honda MTF - 10W30 engine oil was an acceptable substitute, even going by the owner's manual. Honda MTF was basically 10W30 with some additives to reduce synchro wear. My Altima used GL-4 80W90 (which is goddamned impossible to find these days), it felt like I was rowing through molasses anytime I drove it in the winter (the coldest it ever saw while I owned it was about 15F). Fart Pipe posted:My Forester will creep forward in neutral/clutch out when its around 0 or below when I first start it and shifting is downright impossible. I just let it warm up enough until the shifter moves without seeming like its going to break the linkage. My Altima would also creep forward on a cold start once the clutch was out in neutral, usually if it was below about 25F or so. It took several minutes of idling on the coldest days before I could actually get it to shift easily. The Ion doesn't seem to give two fucks - 3rd gear is a little bitchy for the first mile or two, whether that cold start happens at 10F or 100F. But it uses less than 2 quarts of ATF for the gearbox oil, vs the 5 quarts that both Honda and Nissan gearboxes take (the ones I've owned, anyway). I need to get off my rear end and change the fluid, but the drain plug is about >< this close to a crossmember, and more than a pain in the rear end to get at unless you cut down an allen key. randomidiot fucked around with this message at 09:23 on Jan 17, 2015 |
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Jan 17, 2015 09:20
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jamal posted:How does letting a car come up to temperature more gradually at idle do more harm than anything else? My car makes funny noises and I generally can't even get into 1st to take off from a stop when it is really cold. I definitely wouldn't consider driving normally. gently caress me I wish I could find the article I read last week. Basically it had data showing that you should let your car warm the gently caress up before doing anything. As already said, the damage done at idle is much lower than damage done under load before temps rise. There's some car forum voodoo and tribal knowledge that throws massive shade towards anyone who bucks the "JUST DRIVE DUMMY DONT IDLE BECAUSE REASONS" trend, but really nothing to back it up. Solution is to just park your car on top of heaters that blow onto any part containing fluids. Or stop living in places that god has obviously forsaken.
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Jan 17, 2015 09:35
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I've read a few articles that state synthetic oil clings a bit better when a car is parked overnight. That's the only real reason I run it, since I know most wear occurs at startup/during warm up.  (that and the price difference really isn't much when you DIY and buy everything at Wal-Mart - a Mobil 1 oil change runs me right at $30, including filter, and takes me about 15 minutes).In all but the coldest of months, I generally start the car, let it idle for about a minute while I find my sunglasses (they stay in the car), put the faceplate on the stereo, plug in my phone charger, find whatever music I want to listen to, then just keep the RPMs under 2500 for the first couple of miles. If it's below about 25F, I'll start it with my spare key and lock it with the keyfob, and let it idle for about 5 minutes (more just so I can have some form of heat). I always cringe when I start a cold non-DBW car now - both the Avalon and F-150 have ~2000 RPM cold idles (the Avalon will idle as high as 2500 if it's really cold outside) - and mom and stepdad are both the type to just start it and take off.. Mine jumps to about 1500 on a cold start, and immediately drops to a touch above 1000, and it's down to ~700-800 within about 1-2 minutes in the middle of winter (it's down to that within 30 seconds in the summer, even after sitting overnight). I can't imagine a 2k rpm high idle on a cold engine is good for anything except getting heat faster, especially when you're basically putting the transmission into gear at 2k+. The Avalon has developed a pretty ugly ticking when it's cold (sounds like a lifter, except it's a DOHC VVTi? I don't even pretend to understand valvetrains though, and it's the highest mileage car in the house), it subsides significantly once warm, but it's still there. The only time I jump in the car and immediately drive is when it's already warm and hasn't been parked long. Even at work, if it's been long enough between deliveries that the engine has cooled off, I fart around for a couple of minutes while the engine idles (usually looking up directions on the phone, alternate routes, choosing music, etc). Despite this, and despite letting the car idle while I make deliveries, I'm averaging 24-25 mpg city in the winter, and 22-23 in the summer with the a/c on. It's rated 23 city. I'm quite literally the worst case example when it comes to mileage - I do delivery in a fairly small area, so I'm in the car for 5-8 miles at a time, multiple times per day. Proof of mileage. randomidiot fucked around with this message at 10:05 on Jan 17, 2015 |
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Jan 17, 2015 09:54
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iwentdoodie posted:gently caress me I wish I could find the article I read last week. Basically it had data showing that you should let your car warm the gently caress up before doing anything. It seems like common sense that cold engine = more space between moving parts = more relative displacement of those parts = higher velocity achieved = more stress = more fatigue The relationship between stress and velocity is well documented although relative displacement isn't a bad metric by itself, I mentioned a bit about what you can look into as far as how accumulated damaged is calculated (Rainflow Cycle Counting, Miner's rule, fatigue exponents)
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Jan 17, 2015 09:56
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some texas redneck posted:The Avalon has developed a pretty ugly ticking when it's cold (sounds like a lifter, except it's a DOHC VVTi? I don't even pretend to understand valvetrains though, and it's the highest mileage car in the house), it subsides significantly once warm, but it's still there. Dunno about that car specifically, but DOHC engines can still have hydraulic lifters.
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Jan 17, 2015 10:14
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Cold, I wait for the needle to start moving and then go. If I get in the car and it's above "C" I go. Back when I had oil temperature and pressure gauges in the E30 weekend/racecar I'd wait for oil temp to hit 140 or so before moving, and at least 170 before getting over 3500. Honestly I don't give much thought to it most of the time, I just keep my foot out of it until the coolant is up to temp. However, the Miata is still being an utter pain in the dick about being cold (ignition coil is being flaky I'm told by the Miata crew) so I usually let it idle up to 1/4 way up the gauge so I don't get run down by a truck turning into traffic and suddenly having no combustion. Can you tell I really don't want to buy a $250 coilpack? Beach Bum fucked around with this message at 10:21 on Jan 17, 2015 |
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Jan 17, 2015 10:19
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Fucknag posted:Dunno about that car specifically, but DOHC engines can still have hydraulic lifters. That's what I figured. It's a later 1MZ-FE with VVTi, if it helps. She took it to one shop, who listened for 30 seconds, and said she needed both heads rebuilt at (cost far more than just replacing the engine, and more than the car was worth 5 years ago), and included pushrods in the quote  . Another said "don't worry about it, these engines always tick once they get some miles". It's always had religious oil changes every 5-8k with Mobil 1 since the day she bought it brand new, and if you pull the valve covers, the heads + cams are clean enough to eat off of.It still starts, it still runs fine, it still has, according to my butt dyno, just as much power as the day she bought it brand new (i.e. the all seasons are absolutely useless if you stomp it when it's raining), and it still gets the same MPG, so I've just been chalking it up to a noisy lifter for the past 7 or 8 years. It hasn't gotten any worse, the tick just kind of showed up one day. The only time it's had a misfire code was after the dealer did the timing belt and mixed up two of the plug wires (it's also been pissing oil ever since).
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Jan 17, 2015 11:04
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Regarding idle vs drive to warm up, I let my car idle so it will be warm once I get to it, I find after about 5min or less idling it is dither at operating temp or at least starting to warm up. My work truck is an International with a Maxxfore 7 (detuned(?) 6.4L Powerstroke), it will not indicate water temperature while idling. It does not have an oil temp gauge, but the oil psi sits at about 80+ for the first few miles, and eventually drops to 10psi at idle when warm  (it's at 80K city miles).
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Jan 17, 2015 11:54
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Is there no market for Eberspacher-style fuel-fired preheaters in the more brass monkeys areas of the US?
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Jan 17, 2015 15:53
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My TDI would barely budge the coolant temp if you idled it at sub freezing temperatures. The manual specifically said to lightly drive it instead of idling but I don't know if that was a TDI specific thing or just what they say about everything now. My new Honda doesn't have a coolant gauge, just an indicator that lights blue when cold and red when overheating. 
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Jan 17, 2015 16:10
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Shifty Pony posted:My TDI would barely budge the coolant temp if you idled it at sub freezing temperatures. My '13 Focus is like that. If it's colder than 20F or so then the temp gauge will barely come off the peg just from idling. It'll go a bit warmer if you load up the alternator by turning on as much electrical crap as possible, but not much. And gently caress you if you want to leave it idling with the heat on to come out to a toasty car, because it will never warm up at all if the blower is running. In fact, if it's cold enough, idling for a little while at a drive through or in slow traffic with the heat on full blast will drop the coolant temp enough that it starts blowing cold air. In this car you don't have a choice between idle and drive. You want heat? You drive.
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Jan 17, 2015 16:26
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It got down to 14f in MS and my 03 Matrix with close to or over 400k miles was really upset when it cranked. Bucking, sputtering, revs going from 500 to 3k back to 500. After idling for 2 minutes it strared behaving.
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Jan 17, 2015 16:32
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Do those plastic engine covers do anything to help warm up the engine in cold temps? My corolla has a stupid plastic hat on top of the 1zz-fe and I don't know if it makes much difference.
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Jan 17, 2015 16:35
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jamal posted:How does letting a car come up to temperature more gradually at idle do more harm than anything else? My car makes funny noises and I generally can't even get into 1st to take off from a stop when it is really cold. I definitely wouldn't consider driving normally. I'm not saying take the car to redline as soon as you jump in it. Just drive it gently. Warmup idle is barely lower than the RPMs you achieve just driving the car easily. Sure, there's a tiny bit more load on the engine because the car is moving, but it's not a huge difference if you aren't hammering it. Letting the car sit and idle is warming up the engine and maybe part of the transmission only. Differentials, wheel bearings, and steering components are all going to be pretty cold still after you let the engine warm up and the temptation is to just to start driving normally if you already have a warm engine. You may not have enough mechanical sympathy on those other parts as they warm up since the perception is the car is already warmed up. Plus, modern cars just take forever to idle warm up. Both my '11 WRX and '15 BRZ will barely budge the temp needle in low temps sitting idling. It's also goddamn impractical. I don't have time to sit and idle my car for 20 minutes every time I stop somewhere for an hour during the winter. I would never get anywhere.
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Jan 17, 2015 17:14
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When I lived in Alaska, the only reason to let the car warm up was to clean off the windshield and so you didn't freeze your rear end off trying to drive it. Once the heaters are working, it's go time!
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Jan 17, 2015 17:23
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Theris posted:My '13 Focus is like that. If it's colder than 20F or so then the temp gauge will barely come off the peg just from idling. It'll go a bit warmer if you load up the alternator by turning on as much electrical crap as possible, but not much. the TDI would drop temperature like that too. it was so bad about it that the hvac has electric heat strips in it to aid the normal heater core and the temperature gauge was "fake" and would stay pegged at 190F while the OBD II coolant temp would swing from 165-210. I guess that sort of thing is why more vehicles are taking the temp gauge completely out. on the one hand yay insanely efficient engines but on the other hand dammit I didn't move to Texas to be cold.
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Jan 17, 2015 17:25
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Shifty Pony posted:the TDI would drop temperature like that too. it was so bad about it that the hvac has electric heat strips in it to aid the normal heater core and the temperature gauge was "fake" and would stay pegged at 190F while the OBD II coolant temp would swing from 165-210. I guess that sort of thing is why more vehicles are taking the temp gauge completely out. Cover half the radiator with cardboard. Worked for me in Cheyenne.
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Jan 17, 2015 17:33
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bull3964 posted:I'm not saying take the car to redline as soon as you jump in it. Just drive it gently. All the things you mentioned are stuff that in general is constantly loaded in one direction with rolling (bearings, ps pump, etc) or slight sliding (hypoid gears) forces, with much hardier materials and larger amounts of them than sliding an alloy piston against steel cylinder liners or push/pull cycling connecting rod bearings and wristpins. Also most of those things are much laxer about minimum operating temps and only really get pissed if they are overheated and detemper/overload the bearings. The engine and to a certain degree the transmission are the parts that really need to warm up.
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Jan 17, 2015 18:21
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The TDIs gulp a full 2 liters of air every revolution since they have no throttle plate. They will definitely drop temp if you idle them when it's sufficiently cold outside. The real failure is people who ignored me when I said "let the glow plug light turn off, its the squiggly one on the tach" and went "OK CRONK SMASH KEY TO ON  "
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Jan 17, 2015 18:24
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insta posted:The TDIs gulp a full 2 liters of air every revolution since they have no throttle plate. Brain fart time - wouldn't it be 1l per revolution as only 2 of 4 cylinders will intake per rev, the others will be squeezing? Unless you've a 4l or 2 stroke tdi? 
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Jan 17, 2015 18:59
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CommieGIR posted:Cover half the radiator with cardboard. Worked for me in Cheyenne. Trucks up north have blankets for their radiators that can be left closed orntied open.. so this is basically that.
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Jan 17, 2015 19:24
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