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yeah ledge mechanics pre-4 do indeed suck. that's one thing I will never miss
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Jan 18, 2015 18:11
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I had a lot of fun with Melee, 64, and Brawl, and I'm currently having a lot of fun with 4. It's much easier for me to find a match against good people on 4 than it is for me to play Melee with other people, which is one reason why I like it. Though I'll gladly play any Smash game against anyone because they're all really fun games with their own unique quirks. In fact, we're having a Smash tournament at my local college soon that involves all four generations of Smash, where each round you're assigned to a different game against different people. Smash harmony.
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Jan 18, 2015 18:13
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I didn't know what wave dashing was for several years and I'm not good at it but I still like Melee. I like Smash 4 too, but it does not do EVERYTHING better than Melee. Smash 4 is ridiculously defensive compared to Melee. When I play at any local competitive event, I feel like we are just waiting to see who screws up first because it's so much harder to force a defensive opponent into a bad position.
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Jan 18, 2015 18:13
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No one actually LIKES playing melee they just say they do because they're secretly in love with glitches and one specific old game for some reason (perhaps... no reason?)
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Jan 18, 2015 18:59
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whalestory posted:No one actually LIKES playing melee they just say they do because they're secretly in love with glitches and one specific old game for some reason (perhaps... no reason?)
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Jan 18, 2015 19:09
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KamikazePotato posted:This discussion is weird. There's no weird movement to keep SSB in the past or whatever, all it comes down to is that if people prefer Melee they'll play Melee, if they prefer Smash 4 then they'll play Smash 4. Each game works differently and has different strengths and weaknesses, of course not everyone will agree on which is better! People are getting really defensive over a simple matter of personal preference. Yeah you'd really have to have absolutely no experience with video game series if you actually expected the old community to dissolve for the new one. It's especially weird on Something Awful, which still has an active Fallout NV thread for crying out loud. FactsAreUseless posted:Every time a new Final Fantasy game comes out, I just replay FF6. Replace that with 5 and you have Four Job Fiesta. 
mycot fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Jan 18, 2015 |
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Jan 18, 2015 19:11
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IronicDongz posted:I like going fast and melee+wavedashing are fast it's not some weird conspiracy duder. No, it IS a weird conspiracy! There's no other explanation
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Jan 18, 2015 19:32
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TenaciousJ posted:I didn't know what wave dashing was for several years and I'm not good at it but I still like Melee. I like Smash 4 too, but it does not do EVERYTHING better than Melee. Smash 4 is ridiculously defensive compared to Melee. When I play at any local competitive event, I feel like we are just waiting to see who screws up first because it's so much harder to force a defensive opponent into a bad position. I was just at a tournament and this is what it boiled down to basically, it was kind of disappointing. There was very little comboing outside of very boring Diddy/ZSS uair chains and there was so so much more shielding and rolling which gets very stale and repetitive. Contesting the ledge leads to some risky and interesting play in past games, but in Smash 4 unless you are absolutely certain you'll get a stage spike there's pretty much no reason to pursue anyone off-stage because a larger sweet spot for grabbing the ledges means pretty much everyone aside from really egregious cases like Doc can come back no problem. I still like the game since I really enjoy playing the new characters (Wii Fit is gloriously nonsensical) but until new techniques are discovered to get my competitive fixes I'll stick to Melee. There's a good video out there from like a year ago from this speedrunner named Cosmo who explains in one of his streams why people like Melee so much and he pretty much hits it on the head. He's probably one of the nicer video game personalities out there, so I take his analysis as earnest as could be. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lwo_VBSfqWk
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Jan 18, 2015 19:39
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I think the answer is somewhere in the middle.
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Jan 18, 2015 20:16
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i miss wolf
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Jan 18, 2015 20:49
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THE AWESOME GHOST posted:Also the Smash community is doing a pretty dumb thing by exclusively backing an older game because it's the older game, instead of trying to grow the scenes alongside each other. Like the Street Fighter community played 4 even when they complained the earlier games were so much better, they didn't just drop it and go back to playing 3S/2Turbo exclusively. Alternatively, the switch from Melee to Brawl was like Third Strike to Street Fighter Mouse Generation. The comparison to USF4's complaints isn't really appropriate, as they didn't ruin USF4 due to it being at least designed to be competitive in some aspects and function like it should, whereas Brawl... was a catastrophe and Smash 4 is better than Brawl but still not really competitive. Also the Smash 4 ledge is loving terribad and it is a zero sum game to be on the ledge and ledgehogging still exists due to trumping being so stupidly in favor of the person on the ledge anyway, so that's dumb. Smash 4's ledge game is literally terrible anyway due to the fact that the ledge is no longer even remotely necessary for recovery due to the fact that more than 75% of the cast can recover onto stage without hooking ledge from about anywhere on screen. When people talk about Melee being fast they aren't saying it's just quick in terms of position. It has constant, quick mindgames that really test who is playing and make the meta really interesting. Melee being "fast" is 95% because of this, because people are making adjustments in real time, extremely quickly, in order to counterplay an opponent's options at any given moment. A really good example of why Smash 4 is not particularly fast is that its mindgames are not particularly engaging or quick. Instead of being based on character options, which are unified largely throughout the cast in Smash 4, they're based on positioning. So due to the slowdown of the gameplay in general, it slows the meta to a crawl and essentially makes the game into a really basic neutral game that values defense and spacing. There are far more moments of dashing into shield and standing around just... waiting for someone to do something in Smash 4. While the neutral functions, it's not particularly aggressive, which is what people like about Melee's meta and why most think its a better fighting game. Aside from that, Movement is so much cleaner and nicer in Melee (even if you don't consider wavedashing), due to the fact that you can move in essentially any direction you want at any time without limitations -- something you can't do in Smash 4, to the point where most pros say that walking is generally always the best movement option as running commits you in one direction with only a single attack. The lack of momentum carry with jumps is also a part of the problem. I won't even get into stage discussion but when Halberd, one of the worst stages in Smash Bros history, is considered tournament legal because there's literally nothing else in the game that doesn't have even more intrusive stage hazards (compared to Halberds HUGE loving LAZER), there's a problem with the stages. There are like, maybe three good stages in Smash 4 from a competitive angle -- Battlefield and FD and Smashville. Thats half the good stages from Melee, and they have less variation than they do in Melee by a long shot, especially considering the new offstage mechanics. People like Melee and think it is better than Smash 4 for legitimate reasons. That isn't to say Smash 4 sucks. It doesn't. It's a fine game to play with friends and it can be fun if you can get around its control issues and lack of decent stages. But the odd hatred against melee thats cropped up recently really is nonsensical and uninformed. whalestory posted:No one actually LIKES playing melee they just say they do because they're secretly in love with glitches and one specific old game for some reason (perhaps... no reason?) Like this post for example, There aren't any glitches at all used in competitive melee. I assume you mean wavedashing, which isn't a glitch and is actually something Sakurai left in the game after discovering it. It's an aftereffect of the physics of airdodging. It's not being used as intended, but it is not a glitch. It is programmed to work this way. I think the closest thing to a "glitch" used in competitive Melee is *maybe* Link's standing hookshot recovery from 1.00, which got fixed in 1.02 and PAL. As of right now, Smash 4 is taking advantage of more glitches than Melee -- The weird lag cancel that Smashboards found being a prime example of a timer glitch allowing for real combos, as well as things like the Peach Turnip Glitch from 1.0-1.03 and Yoshi's teleport and wavedash from the original release. If liking Melee was all about liking glitches, Melee fans would be all over Smash 4. laplace fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Jan 18, 2015 |
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Jan 18, 2015 21:27
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the only part of halberd thats bad is the claw, everything else is fine and really predictible
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Jan 18, 2015 21:30
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sharrrk posted:the only part of halberd thats bad is the claw, everything else is fine and really predictible It has stage hazards to begin with, and tournament sets have been decided by people accidentally hitting the lazer. This happened a good 4-5 times during KiT, which is embarrassing.
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Jan 18, 2015 21:32
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laplace posted:(compared to Halberds HUGE loving LAZER) What people don't like about Halberd is the claw, not the laser, but good try anyway.
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Jan 18, 2015 21:33
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I used the lazer as an example because it's a gigantic loving lazer that shouldn't exist even when there are worse options, I wasn't saying the lazer was the end-all-be-all and that the claw didn't exist. The claw is awful, yes. We all get it. That only proves my point more that there are two awful gigantic gently caress off stage hazards on Halberd, which is a terrible stage to begin with. The point is when a stage that has intrusive, damaging, match-deciding stage hazards is considered a legal tournament stage in a game that is trying to desperately be competitive, there might be an issue with that games stages. Edit: What I'm trying to say is that the idea that Melee players or PM players hate Smash 4 for no reason or reasons that aren't good or something is false. Factually incorrect. There are valid complaints about it from a competitive angle -- And thats fine. The game just isn't very competitive. laplace fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Jan 18, 2015 |
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Jan 18, 2015 21:36
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People have hated Melee for 7 years, this is not a new thing. What is somewhat new though is people saying Melee was a bad game, which is  Also Halberd owns and it was counterpick in Brawl afaik. The 5 main stages Sm4sh has are Lylat, BF, FD, Smashville, and Town and City, so there's at least one new one from Brawl, and if you go into counterpick there are actually quite a few viable stages. laplace posted:The point is when a stage that has intrusive, damaging, match-deciding stage hazards is considered a legal tournament stage in a game that is trying to desperately be competitive, there might be an issue with that games stages. I ordinarily agree with you on a lot of your points but this is bullshit, the devs are not trying desperately for this. Maybe the fans, yes, but if it's actually a problem then they shouldn't be picking Halberd in the first place, and they could be looking to the stage creator for a solution since it's actually pretty good for doing stages with not a lot going on this time around. What would be nice is for the devs to make stage uploading a thing, then it would be possible for a universal standard to be agreed upon and downloaded for tourney use. TheKingofSprings fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Jan 18, 2015 |
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Jan 18, 2015 21:37
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Halberd was not a universal counterpick in Brawl due to it being stupidly in Meta Knight's favor. Unversal starters were FD, Battlefield, and Smashville, with the only universal counterpick being Yoshi's Island. People often gentleman'd to other stages like Delfino or Halberd, but they were in general not legal unless agreed upon by both opponents. Some TO's did not follow his rule and made their own ban lists, but they didn't really have any consensus. TheKingofSprings posted:I ordinarily agree with you on a lot of your points but this is bullshit, the devs are not trying desperately for this. Maybe the fans, yes, but if it's actually a problem then they shouldn't be picking Halberd in the first place, and they could be looking to the stage creator for a solution since it's actually pretty good for doing stages with not a lot going on this time around. What would be nice is for the devs to make stage uploading a thing, then it would be possible for a universal standard to be agreed upon and downloaded for tourney use. I should clarify there that I mean that people are trying to play it competitively and make it competitive, and when I talk about players for the game I'm talking about pros/competitive players. I agree that someone should just make a set of Tourney legal starters and counterpicks, post them to miiverse, and then use those instead of the actual stages. I don't think Sakurai designed this game to be competitive at all, lol.
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Jan 18, 2015 21:43
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sharrrk posted:i miss wolf Greetings, miss wolf.
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Jan 18, 2015 21:45
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I have a weird reaction to Melee for some reason. I think SSF2 and Third Strike are good and fun games. I think most iterations of SF4 are good and fun games. I don't care when people talk about any of them. I think Marvel 2 is a good and fun game. I think Marvel 3 is a good and fun game. I don't care when people talk about either of them. I think Melee is a good and fun game, I thought Brawl was at least a fun game, and I think Smash 4 is a good and fun game. I get really annoyed whenever people talk about Melee. I recognize this is my own retard brain being bad. I can live with that.
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Jan 18, 2015 21:47
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how the hell do you accidently get hit by halberd's laser? that thing is incredibly telegraphed. if a player loses because they got hit by the laser of all things accidently then that's their fault for being bad. seriously halberd's hazards except for the claw are exactly what people want out of a potential counterpick stage: really obviously telegraphed and can be taken advantage of by either player. its a good stage.
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Jan 18, 2015 21:50
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Please make Gamer legal.
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Jan 18, 2015 21:51
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laplace posted:Alternatively, the switch from Melee to Brawl was like Third Strike to Street Fighter Mouse Generation. The comparison to USF4's complaints isn't really appropriate, as they didn't ruin USF4 due to it being at least designed to be competitive in some aspects and function like it should, whereas Brawl... was a catastrophe and Smash 4 is better than Brawl but still not really competitive. I see.
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Jan 18, 2015 21:52
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laplace posted:I think the closest thing to a "glitch" used in competitive Melee is *maybe* Link's standing hookshot recovery from 1.00, which got fixed in 1.02 and PAL. As of right now, Smash 4 is taking advantage of more glitches than Melee -- The weird lag cancel that Smashboards found being a prime example of a timer glitch allowing for real combos, as well as things like the Peach Turnip Glitch from 1.0-1.03 and Yoshi's teleport and wavedash from the original release. If liking Melee was all about liking glitches, Melee fans would be all over Smash 4. Tell me more about Captain Falcon/Ganondorf's double-jump refresh.
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Jan 18, 2015 21:52
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sharrrk posted:how the hell do you accidently get hit by halberd's laser? that thing is incredibly telegraphed. if a player loses because they got hit by it accidently then that's their fault for being bad. seriously halberd's hazards except for the claw are exactly what people want out of a potential counterpick stage: really obviously telegraphed and can be taken advantage of by either player. its a good stage. Halberd's laser's end has invisible hitboxes that extend beyond the laser and aren't shown. You can stand safely out of range of every other hit and still get hit and sent flying.
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Jan 18, 2015 21:52
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Maple Leaf posted:Tell me more about Captain Falcon/Ganondorf's double-jump refresh. Not a bug but a feature.  Zombies' Downfall posted:I have a weird reaction to Melee for some reason. E: there were some very vocal people being absolutely caustic re: the Melee/Brawl split a number of years ago so there's some justification to an extent. That crowd has largely dissipated though. TheKingofSprings fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Jan 18, 2015 |
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Jan 18, 2015 21:53
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ok that's bad i'll agree but so are a lot of other unseen hitboxes in this game. i don't see why that one should be treated any differently than the others (just keep playing until you learn where not to get hit)
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Jan 18, 2015 21:55
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laplace posted:... Smash 4 [is] a fine game to play with friends and it can be fun .... Let me just get rid of all that extra crap for you there.
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Jan 18, 2015 21:55
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i want hitbox viewer for this game really bad
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Jan 18, 2015 21:56
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Does anyone know if that Playasia third-party Gamecube adapter is legit? This thing: http://www.play-asia.com/gamecube-controller-adapter-for-wii-u-pc-usb-paOS-13-49-en-70-8h2n.html I missed my chance to get a proper Nintendo version before Smash came out and well, looks like I'm SOL on getting one now.
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Jan 18, 2015 21:57
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sharrrk posted:i want hitbox viewer for this game really bad Never ever Also they really just need to tone down shields and airdodges, I don't understand the logic that went into that design
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Jan 18, 2015 21:58
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laplace posted:Like this post for example, There aren't any glitches at all used in competitive melee. I assume you mean wavedashing, which isn't a glitch and is actually something Sakurai left in the game after discovering it. It's an aftereffect of the physics of airdodging. It's not being used as intended, but it is not a glitch. It is programmed to work this way. I was bein sarcastic!! I love melee and also like smash 4 and think it's really weird how much people respect nintendo's/sakurai's vision of what smash is supposed to be when they barely even scratch the surface of what makes smash great in the first place. youp eople make me sick and i hope some great misfortune falls upon you
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Jan 18, 2015 21:59
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Honestly, I'd be fine with most of the stages and items in the game if they didn't feel so weirdly strong. Like the Flying Man in the 3DS version, for example, who can KO you at percentages most of the actual characters can only dream of. It seems like the knockback for everything but the characters themselves is far stronger than they were in past games, while the characters get KOs way later.
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Jan 18, 2015 22:00
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Class3KillStorm posted:Does anyone know if that Playasia third-party Gamecube adapter is legit? This thing: http://www.play-asia.com/gamecube-controller-adapter-for-wii-u-pc-usb-paOS-13-49-en-70-8h2n.html It is legit.
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Jan 18, 2015 22:00
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The Bee posted:Honestly, I'd be fine with most of the stages and items in the game if they didn't feel so weirdly strong. Like the Flying Man in the 3DS version, for example, who can KO you at percentages most of the actual characters can only dream of. It seems like the knockback for everything but the characters themselves is far stronger than they were in past games, while the characters get KOs way later. The Beetle is all around a really bad design to me, that fucker should glow neon green.
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Jan 18, 2015 22:03
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TheKingofSprings posted:The Beetle is all around a really bad design to me, that fucker should glow neon green. The beetle, the drill arm, the gust bellows, and to a lesser degree the Boss Galaga all need to get the heck out. These aren't even related to my other complaint of overly high knockback on every item. These are just obnoxious instant kills 9 times out of 10. Especially the Gust Bellows, which means your recovery is null and void because you've got no chance of refreshing your jumps after a "hit."
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Jan 18, 2015 22:06
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Say what you will about the ledge mechanics in 4, at least we don't have goddamn planking.
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Jan 18, 2015 22:07
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TheKingofSprings posted:Never ever The logic is simply that they don't want players getting hit when the player (a not hardcore player) does not want to be hit.
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Jan 18, 2015 22:08
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mabels big day posted:The logic is simply that they don't want players getting hit when the player (a not hardcore player) does not want to be hit. Unless it would be funny no player wants to get hit though Might as well just give the players invincibility stars
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Jan 18, 2015 22:12
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I legitimately don't understand the issue with ledgehogging. Recover better, grabbing ledge is only one option and if you are being put in a situation where your one option is getting taken away consistently, you either need to learn to play better or not get manipulated out of a stock. Grabbing ledge is like the worst option for recovery in most cases anyway as it puts you either in a grab if they predict your ledge attack or a chase if you roll or jump. Smash 4's offstage game blows rear end because it barely even matters. It's the same complaint people had with PM 3.02, that recoveries were way too good, to the point of limiting options or counterplaying offstage wasn't even really a thing because you were just as powerful off the edge as you were on stage.
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Jan 18, 2015 22:14
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laplace posted:I legitimately don't understand the issue with ledgehogging. Recover better, grabbing ledge is only one option and if you are being put in a situation where your one option is getting taken away consistently, you either need to learn to play better or not get manipulated out of a stock. Grabbing ledge is like the worst option for recovery in most cases anyway as it puts you either in a grab if they predict your ledge attack or a chase if you roll or jump. Smash 4's offstage game would be perfect in theory. You can recover from far, encouraging risky play because you have room for ever. You can steal the ledge, encouraging less edgehogging and more badass midair interceptions. Overall you're changing a more passive and boring form of recovery-stopping with a more active, risky, and engaging one. The problem is you add the overbearing airdodges to the mix and end up jumbling everything up. If you made the airdodge much more punishable, made stealing the ledge actually mean something for the player losing the ledge, and the blast zones a bit less forgiving, Smash 4 could have some incredible offstage play going on.
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Jan 18, 2015 22:16
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