Cingulate posted:Who, except for those terribly weakened by suffering genocide and enslavement, hasn't? I guess if you were a landlocked minor European country you just sat around making your serfs toil until the 20th century.
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Jan 19, 2015 22:31
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Disinterested posted:I guess if you were a landlocked minor European country you just sat around making your serfs toil until the 20th century. Or, y'know, Russia.
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Jan 19, 2015 22:43
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Zeroisanumber posted:Or, y'know, Russia. Russia did both!
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Jan 19, 2015 22:45
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asdf32 posted:Humans are violent and brutal. That's not an excuse for the intellectually lazy conclusion that all human institutions are equally bad or overall destructive. I never said all human institutions were equally bad. Intellectually lazy is being unable to handle any criticism of America without jumping to "Oh so you're saying America is just the same as Nazi Germany huh?"
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Jan 19, 2015 23:55
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VitalSigns posted:I never said all human institutions were equally bad. Intellectually lazy is being unable to handle any criticism of America without jumping to "Oh so you're saying America is just the same as Nazi Germany huh?" So what institutions/nations of similar influence have been positive in your book?
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Jan 20, 2015 00:11
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asdf32 posted:So what institutions/nations of similar influence have been positive in your book? This doesn't have an easy answer. Is it positive to be killed for your land, or have your democracy overthrown at the behest of fruit companies, or be shot by your own countrymen for trying to organize your labor? On the other hand if you're a Frenchman it is positive to be liberated by US soldiers who go home instead of USSR soldiers who stay for 50 years, and it is positive to have your country rebuilt with the Marshall Plan. Do they balance out? I don't know how you even begin to make a calculation like that. It's kind of meaningless question. Is America less pointlessly cruel and insane than the other Great Powers were when they were on top? Yeah sure, but "hey we're not the British or French colonial empire" isn't exactly high praise (and during the time of those empires we were busy committing our own genocide and borrowing the brutal colonial methods for our conquest of the Phillipines).
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Jan 20, 2015 00:50
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I can't really think of anything in the US's behaviour that has ever made me think that it wouldn't have gone utterly hamfistedly in to intercontinental imperialism from day 1 if it had been strong enough. Trying to aggregate the sins of an enormous and complex country, with different leaders and a mishmash of changing governing ideologies is difficult. That is without getting into the question that governments don't represent people well. I personally think that claiming the USSR was better is...strange. Either way, I'm pretty sure the only way to move past this stuff is to become more internationalist and get out of the national dickwaving business altogether, including the liberal 'no my country is worse than your's' contests. Disinterested fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Jan 20, 2015 |
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Jan 20, 2015 00:56
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Who wouldn't be proud of America? Quakers, jazz, MLK, etc. Wait do you mean you're proud of the government? 
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Jan 20, 2015 00:59
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Disinterested posted:I can't really think of anything in the US's behaviour that has ever made me think that it wouldn't have gone utterly hamfistedly in to intercontinental imperialism from day 1 if it had been strong enough. Luckily we waited and gained cultural, economic, and military domination without all the mess of actually having to run colonies.
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Jan 20, 2015 02:37
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Nintendo Kid posted:Luckily we waited and gained cultural, economic, and military domination without all the mess of actually having to run colonies. Apart from Hawaii, Puerto Rico, Guam and the Philippines I guess.
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Jan 20, 2015 03:28
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Don't forget Cuba, though that only lasted a few years.
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Jan 20, 2015 03:37
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Finns feel that being proud of their country is embarrassing. Meanwhile, in America, everyone is overtly political.
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Jan 20, 2015 04:17
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ekuNNN posted:Apart from Hawaii, Puerto Rico, Guam and the Philippines I guess. The Spanish did all the heavy lifting with colonizing the places, we took them off their hands in basically a pointless war.
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Jan 20, 2015 04:19
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Nintendo Kid posted:The Spanish did all the heavy lifting with colonizing the places, we took them off their hands in basically a pointless war. And we fully integrated one of those and released another one fairly quickly.
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Jan 20, 2015 04:30
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VitalSigns posted:This doesn't have an easy answer. Is it positive to be killed for your land, or have your democracy overthrown at the behest of fruit companies, or be shot by your own countrymen for trying to organize your labor? On the other hand if you're a Frenchman it is positive to be liberated by US soldiers who go home instead of USSR soldiers who stay for 50 years, and it is positive to have your country rebuilt with the Marshall Plan. Do they balance out? I don't know how you even begin to make a calculation like that. you cant give a straight answer can you? are all countries evil incarnate? If not then which country do you think has been a more positive influence on the world? If you cant answer that then why are you arguing America isnt that country? You must have an alternate option or else your just wasting time
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Jan 20, 2015 05:17
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davidb posted:you cant give a straight answer can you? are all countries evil incarnate? If not then which country do you think has been a more positive influence on the world? If you cant answer that then why are you arguing America isnt that country? You must have an alternate option or else your just wasting time The government of the United States is the most evil in all history. The true people of the United States are the greatest in history, moral tutors to all mankind. Today is the greatest holiday for morally correct Americans. The holiday for wicked, base servants of capital is the day after Thanksgiving.
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Jan 20, 2015 05:28
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SedanChair posted:Who wouldn't be proud of America? Quakers, jazz, MLK, etc. recently? no Im not proud of the government. But frankly, the government is a reflection of the society. The government is in gridlock because theyve lost the ability to compromise. Theyve lost the ability to compromise the same way society has split along partisan lines in a liptis test of purity sort of way. the same way posters on here have been behaving. America doesnt meet the purity test set by the neckbeards on here so therefore LOLOL anyone who would dare say America has brought peace to the globe, spread democracy and capitalism is a dim wit. Because one time in band camp I something happened and Ive decided thats way more important than anything. When the government did function correctly. Both sides came to the table. Got their hands dirty. Accepted that the solution wasnt going to meet their highest of standards. And got something done. They took risks and more often then not made the right call. Which is why japan, germany, korea turned out well. They killed some people, smashed some heads. then built something good. Now we go into iraq and try to repeat the same success except weve lost our balls. Were so kitten gloves about everything we dont break the eggs that need broken. Because the camera is rolling, every action will be fully accountable to by every pundit on tv and they will tear your poo poo apart regardless of which decision you make. France has a cartoon march. Obama goes...hes chumming it with muslim leaders. He doesnt go...hes a coward not representing the US You know whos breaking the right eggs? Egyptian president El sisi. That dudes a rockstar getting the job done in an ugly part of the world.
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Jan 20, 2015 05:28
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SedanChair posted:The government of the United States is the most evil in all history. if your going to troll youll need to be less obvious. This kind of silly absolute statement when we have so many others throughout history to choose from.
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Jan 20, 2015 05:30
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davidb posted:if your going to troll youll need to be less obvious. davidb posted:You know whos breaking the right eggs? Egyptian president El sisi.  Note: I would literally be imprisoned in Egypt for creating this.
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Jan 20, 2015 05:32
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If you think America is anything other than a country of gently caress you got mine, i've got a bridge to sell you.
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Jan 20, 2015 05:32
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Panzeh posted:If you think America is anything other than a country of gently caress you got mine, i've got a bridge to sell you. Do you actually have a bridge? Can you get more? What's your asking price? America needs bridges badly.
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Jan 20, 2015 05:38
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Actually, does it count as national pride if you poo poo on everywhere else slightly more than you poo poo on your own place?
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Jan 20, 2015 05:43
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OwlFancier posted:Actually, does it count as national pride if you poo poo on everywhere else slightly more than you poo poo on your own place? sure if your a natural shitter Panzeh posted:If you think America is anything other than a country of gently caress you got mine, i've got a bridge to sell you. what country is a better influence on the world than America? SedanChair posted:
so? Sisi is getting poo poo done that needs done. The middle east is such a poo poo hole the guys best suited for the job are monsters by western standards. We didnt like saddam hussein but he kept all those muslim sand eaters in line. Now their loose on their own and just chopping each others heads off because the guy 50 miles down the road read one of the koran sentences different. If theres less or none, freedom of speech in egypt beucase the man stopping the muslims trying to destroy yet another country doesnt have our value system. And he has to take tough action to get them back under control then so be it. then so be it. I dont expect anyone else could have gotten the job done. See, I dont let perfect be the obstacle of the good. You guys on the other hand demand jesus or ghandi are the only acceptable solutions to the real world problems davidb fucked around with this message at 05:54 on Jan 20, 2015 |
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Jan 20, 2015 05:49
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davidb posted:what country is a better influence on the world than America? there was a guy who knew how to have final solutions to a bunch of society's problems, and he brought together dictators, communists, capitalists, tories, and labour i have to say that guy might have ruled a thousand years
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Jan 20, 2015 05:53
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davidb posted:sure if your a natural shitter Muslim sand eaters?
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Jan 20, 2015 05:54
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Panzeh posted:there was a guy who knew how to have final solutions to a bunch of society's problems, and he brought together dictators, communists, capitalists, tories, and labour ok so you vote nazi germany. Anyone else have a vote for better influence on the world than America?
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Jan 20, 2015 05:55
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SedanChair posted:Muslim sand eaters? camel humpers, whats your cup of tea? (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 20, 2015 05:56
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davidb posted:camel humpers, whats your cup of tea? "Cup of tea" sounds too British. Your idioms need more America.
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Jan 20, 2015 05:59
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davidb posted:ok so you vote nazi germany. Anyone else have a vote for better influence on the world than America? Who else could get Roosevelt, Churchill, and Stalin to sit down for a picture together?
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Jan 20, 2015 05:59
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Panzeh posted:Who else could get Roosevelt, Churchill, and Stalin to sit down for a picture together? Hirohito.
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Jan 20, 2015 06:00
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Zeroisanumber posted:"Cup of tea" sounds too British. Your idioms need more America. I don't think he could really make his posts any more American. An eagle would fly out of my laptop's SD slot.
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Jan 20, 2015 06:00
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davidb posted:ok so you vote nazi germany. Anyone else have a vote for better influence on the world than America? Cuba, they don't do much bad and do a lot of good, at least in this millenium, Sure they funded some shady groups in the past, but they have moved away from that and if we are going by net good there is a real case to be made for them versus America.
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Jan 20, 2015 06:00
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Panzeh posted:If you think America is anything other than a country of gently caress you got mine, i've got a bridge to sell you. Americans actually give the highest percentage of their incomes to charity of any nation. Which speaks to the ridiculousness of treating the USA (or any nation!) as solely its government and that government's policy.
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Jan 20, 2015 06:01
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Yeah, but a ton of that charity goes to bullshit like pushing anti-gay laws abroad and the rest of it goes to fixing problems that could be fixed more efficiently by having a real, functioning welfare system instead.
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Jan 20, 2015 06:04
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Panzeh posted:Who else could get Roosevelt, Churchill, and Stalin to sit down for a picture together? I found a wonderful V-Day newspaper in the loft the other day with mugshots of all the allied leaders and generals next to each other on the "good side". It was pretty funny having stalin grinning next to patton.
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Jan 20, 2015 06:06
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A Fancy 400 lbs posted:Yeah, but a ton of that charity goes to bullshit like pushing anti-gay laws abroad and the rest of it goes to fixing problems that could be fixed more efficiently by having a real, functioning welfare system instead. No, we rank high on volunteering and helping strangers in trouble as well. But I misspoke- we're tied with Myanmar for number one overall, but we're only number four in terms of people giving money, tied with Ireland and just behind Malta.
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Jan 20, 2015 06:24
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davidb posted:When the government did function correctly. Both sides came to the table. Got their hands dirty. Accepted that the solution wasnt going to meet their highest of standards. And got something done. They took risks and more often then not made the right call. Which is why japan, germany, korea turned out well. They killed some people, smashed some heads. then built something good. That's why, for 2016, I vote for this guy:  And we shall have.... peace America Inc. fucked around with this message at 06:55 on Jan 20, 2015 |
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Jan 20, 2015 06:51
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This thread is about as magical as I expected it to be. Also, yeah the amount given to charities includes religious ones. Polish and American nationalism do fit like a glove for now. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 07:20 on Jan 20, 2015 |
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Jan 20, 2015 07:18
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davidb posted:
Lovin' it. Anyway one narrative you're imposing onto people's criticisms here is that they somehow work as an implicit statement of support for an alternative, Gandhian-Tolstoyan Earthly Dream State. They're not. The USG isn't a mean kid at band camp. It's a violent and powerful hegemon seeking to maintain it's dominance by pretty much any means necessary and there's no other way to look at it's impact accurately unless that's your given starting point. You and yours have personally benefited from this but that's because of how the chips were laid out before you were even a thought, not some sort of essentialized commentary on the inherent do-goodedness of the USG that works for everyone or even most people.
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Jan 20, 2015 07:28
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People bringing up that the USSR did much good for the world do not mean they did it directly, but by the mere existence of Communism being an alternative to Capitalism which lead the West to adopting many of the policies that lifted up and made life better (for first world) workers and with it's decline and fall we have seen those gains reversed and destroyed.
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Jan 20, 2015 09:04
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