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evilweasel posted:Had a goal and been willing to work towards it. Give me more details, how does this work. Zeitgueist fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Jan 20, 2015 |
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Jan 20, 2015 20:24
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Raising awareness is a dumbass slacktivist goal, actually.
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Jan 20, 2015 20:24
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An Angry Bug posted:Evilweasel and co. are those white moderates. I'm not kidding when I say that moderates whining about protest movements are using almost the same language they would have been using about black protesters and white student protesters back in the 60's
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Jan 20, 2015 20:25
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I have here in my hands a list of three hundred slacktivists.
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Jan 20, 2015 20:25
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Zeitgueist posted:LOL how would they have done this, actual politicians in congress have trouble doing this. That's the whole point of a protest silly goose.
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Jan 20, 2015 20:26
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Hey you accomplished no tangible outcomes, what's up with that We...er...ah...raise awareness?
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Jan 20, 2015 20:26
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An Angry Bug posted:I have here in my hands a list of three hundred slacktivists. McCarthy nooooooo......
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Jan 20, 2015 20:26
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zoux posted:Raising awareness is a dumbass slacktivist goal, actually. To an extent. If you're whining on a message board, probably. If you're drawing media attention and starting a larger political conversation, it's not. A lot of protesting and activism involves making yourself visible. Getting arrested, getting on TV.
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Jan 20, 2015 20:27
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Still more worthwhile than insulting people for not being effective enough while they're being actively fought and sabotaged.
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Jan 20, 2015 20:28
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Zeitgueist posted:To an extent. If you're whining on a message board, probably. If you're drawing media attention and starting a larger political conversation, it's not. I'm not sure that that is an effective technique by itself and that's why I'm asking what the last time a protest movement was successful in the US. An Angry Bug posted:Still more worthwhile than insulting people for not being effective enough while they're being actively fought and sabotaged. Cool here's your participation ribbon. You can show your friends!
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Jan 20, 2015 20:28
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DemeaninDemon posted:That's the whole point of a protest silly goose. By the way, the still existing Occupy Seattle, among other things it has worked on, was a major part of the minimum wage increase there that has been true in many other cities. Activists didn't spring fully formed out of Occupy and didn't die after there either.
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Jan 20, 2015 20:29
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Ezra Klein has some ideas for what Obama would say in a "brutally honest" State of the Union. It reads more like a Aaron Sorkin-esque Democrat power fantasy. http://www.vox.com/2015/1/20/7852905/obama-state-of-the-union Come on, I could write Brutally Honest Obama better than that. quote:The applause died down. The President smiled, then suddenly turned around, staring Speaker Boehner in the eyes.
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Jan 20, 2015 20:29
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Also the fact Occupy wasn't single issue centric is how it got people to join. If it had been about raising the minimum wage, financial reform, homeless relief, or local civic corruption it wouldn't have gotten the numbers to ever matter. The fact it was nothing more than a chance for the desperate to yell and scream at society was why people came. It was united by the systemic opperession people face. Smug posting about how occupy should have fixed things if they really cared is to belittle the desperation of the situation. But then again, if all you know of occupy is CNN coverage then I can understand the skewed perspective.
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Jan 20, 2015 20:29
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So what protests can be directly attributed to ending the Vietnam War or improving Civil Rights in the 60s?
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Jan 20, 2015 20:29
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zoux posted:I'm not sure that that is an effective technique by itself and that's why I'm asking what the last time a protest movement was successful in the US. Define success? This is a pretty fun question to ask the day after MLK day.
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Jan 20, 2015 20:29
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Zeitgueist posted:They had goals, it was raising awareness of the issues. "Raising awareness" is a meaningless goal. Occupy NYC was a joke and produced nothing, and their "wiping out" by the NYPD had zero effect on their ability to "work on proposals". That people who were at OWS managed to take its failure to heart and realized that an actual goal and work towards that goal rather than OWS's useless dithering is necessary is progress of a sort, I suppose, but hardly positive for OWS. A third party is unviable in the United States but a separate political bloc is not: the two-party system is essentially an alliance of various blocs that compete over the few unaligned blocs. One of the many, many failures of OWS was an exceptionally poor understanding of that distinction (and more generally the apparent lack of knowledge that primaries exist, a problem that's pretty common to 'leftists' outside the Presidential primaries).
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Jan 20, 2015 20:30
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Zeitgueist posted:Define success? Yeah I would say the civil rights movement was the last successful one, but it's possible I missed something in the interim. And that movement had extreme organization and discipline and concurrent political and legislative programs. evilweasel posted:A third party is unviable in the United States but a separate political bloc is not: the two-party system is essentially an alliance of various blocs that compete over the few unaligned blocs. The Tea Party has proven that brutally.
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Jan 20, 2015 20:31
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evilweasel posted:Occupy was given months in almost every major city to "occupy' and did nothing with it. The clearing of the "occupy" camps after they'd become irrelevant was more a symptom of their utter failure and was certainly not a cause. That's what I keep coming back to. The establishment did a lot of things to help Occupy fail, but the only one that was important was "watch." And people involved in Occupy have done useful things since, but the only valuable lesson they took away was "don't repeat that approach." That part's actually good, since you can learn a lot from failure, but you have to suck it down and acknowledge that you were not failed, you failed.
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Jan 20, 2015 20:32
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It's not a meaningless goal, and your insistence on that is mostly because you want to feel superior to them.
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Jan 20, 2015 20:32
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zoux posted:Yeah I would say the civil rights movement was the last successful one, but it's possible I missed something in the interim. And that movement had extreme organization and discipline and concurrent political and legislative programs. Anti-war protests in the 70's. Antiwar protests in the early 2000's notably did not have an effect.
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Jan 20, 2015 20:33
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Zeitgueist posted:Anti-war protests in the 70's. Why not? What was the difference? Was it because there were enough people buying into the combo of post-9/11 jingoism and Muslim hatred or is it deeper than that?
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Jan 20, 2015 20:34
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Zeitgueist posted:Anti-war protests in the 70's. Or the AIDS protesters they have to be considered successful by the strict policy-only definition some are using.
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Jan 20, 2015 20:34
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An Angry Bug posted:It's not a meaningless goal, and your insistence on that is mostly because you want to feel superior to them. It's pretty much this. If you think protesters aren't doing it right, go help. You can write up proposals, create guides, donate money. If you're not willing to help them, stop mocking them for being ineffective. They're at least trying. If you think protesting is pointless, lol. It's perfectly acceptable to say that protesting is something you won't do because you don't feel it's worth your time, but mocking people for doing it is some real stupid liberal feel good poo poo.
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Jan 20, 2015 20:35
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Zeitgueist posted:By the way, the still existing Occupy Seattle, among other things it has worked on, was a major part of the minimum wage increase there that has been true in many other cities. I'd count that as a success then on a local scale. So if small victories count then it was successful I guess. What about tea party protests? They certainly were successful in dragging the conversion back to 1890 as well as being hilarious.
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Jan 20, 2015 20:35
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That, the ability and willingness of the media to avoid acknowledging it, lack of mechanisms to directly oppose the war, and the fact that a lot of people are horrible human beings.
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Jan 20, 2015 20:36
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I think a lot of the criticism is based on tangibles. The Civil Rights era was probably the last example of protests accomplishing something. The same can't be said for the Vietnam protests, even. It's pathetic and unfortunate, ultimately. I do appreciate you providing counter examples seeing how the consensus/narrative is an overarching "OWS was a joke and should be mocked".
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Jan 20, 2015 20:36
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Zeitgueist posted:It's pretty much this. So only critique if you are willing to try and strongarm and amorphous and aimless group of hundreds of thousands that actively opposes organization and leadership into some kind of direction.
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Jan 20, 2015 20:37
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zoux posted:Why not? What was the difference? Was it because there were enough people buying into the combo of post-9/11 jingoism and Muslim hatred or is it deeper than that? Lack of conscription and a tiny fraction of the American body count greatly decreased the impact of the war on 21st century Americans, while it all being kicked off by an event in the US itself answered the "why are we even over there anyway" question for a lot of people.
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Jan 20, 2015 20:38
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zoux posted:Why not? What was the difference? Was it because there were enough people buying into the combo of post-9/11 jingoism and Muslim hatred or is it deeper than that? Hard to say but probably a mix of powerful interests wanting the war, a perceived level of success, and the US being far more effective in marginalizing protest movements. I think the government was more wary of protesters in the wake of Civil Rights than it as in 10 years ago.
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Jan 20, 2015 20:38
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Phone posted:I think a lot of the criticism is based on tangibles. The Civil Rights era was probably the last example of protests accomplishing something. The same can't be said for the Vietnam protests, even. It's pathetic and unfortunate, ultimately. Seeing how the CRA got gutted (among the growing segregation in America, etc), you can seriously question if the civil rights movement succeeded or just progressed our country somewhat. If we use "progress our country somewhat" test, then a lot of protest movements are successful.
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Jan 20, 2015 20:38
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zoux posted:So only critique if you are willing to try and strongarm and amorphous and aimless group of hundreds of thousands that actively opposes organization and leadership into some kind of direction. Not what I said but if hey, whatever words you want to put in my mouth to make you feel better.
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Jan 20, 2015 20:39
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Zeitgueist posted:Full communism. Are you aware that every third post you make calls out people for "making GBS threads on leftists" despite that rarely ever happening on these forums?
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Jan 20, 2015 20:39
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zoux posted:So only critique if you are willing to try and strongarm and amorphous and aimless group of hundreds of thousands that actively opposes organization and leadership into some kind of direction. Yet that's the exact same criticism leveled against occupy.
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Jan 20, 2015 20:39
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zoux posted:So only critique if you are willing to try and strongarm and amorphous and aimless group of hundreds of thousands that actively opposes organization and leadership into some kind of direction. That's mischaracterizing what they said and you know it. Occupy may have been a clusterfuck, but it still did more to help than harm, and treating it as a pathetic thing to be mocked only enables the narrative established by people who don't want protests to happen at all.
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Jan 20, 2015 20:39
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DemeaninDemon posted:I'd count that as a success then on a local scale. So if small victories count then it was successful I guess. LOL this poo poo. Look at that goalpost slide, and that vague definition of success get a bit more blurry.
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Jan 20, 2015 20:40
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Zelder posted:Are you aware that every third post you make calls out people for "making GBS threads on leftists" despite that rarely ever happening on these forums? This is a fantastic post to make in the middle of "lets mock Occupy" page 3
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Jan 20, 2015 20:40
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Zeitgueist posted:This is a fantastic post to make in the middle of "lets mock Occupy" page 3 Or are we going with "No True Leftist" here.
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Jan 20, 2015 20:41
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An Angry Bug posted:That's mischaracterizing what they said and you know it. Occupy may have been a clusterfuck, but it still did more to help than harm, and treating it as a pathetic thing to be mocked only enables the narrative established by people who don't want protests to happen at all. It cast the cause of income inequality as the province of the strawman granola shiftless jobless hippie for the whole of America. If I'm generous I can say, at best, it did nothing. Zeitgeist believes that liberalism is a contest and you all suck at it.
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Jan 20, 2015 20:42
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Trabisnikof posted:Seeing how the CRA got gutted (among the growing segregation in America, etc), you can seriously question if the civil rights movement succeeded or just progressed our country somewhat. If we use "progress our country somewhat" test, then a lot of protest movements are successful. I think you mean "temporarily progress our country somewhat" considering the court already gutted the VRA and is about to do the same thing to the FHA.
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Jan 20, 2015 20:42
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Zeitgueist posted:Give me more details, how does this work. You compromise your core beliefs and values. This message brought to you by Charter-Schools-as-method-of-community-development.
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Jan 20, 2015 20:42
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