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The Next DMG does make mention of "Fail forwards"-type adjudication:quote:Success at a cost
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Jan 20, 2015 21:48
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gradenko_2000 posted:What I did my last game was to take a page from Robin D Laws and start from a DC of 10, increasing it by 1 whenever the party succeeded, and then decreasing it by 1 whenever they failed. Once I let go of the idea that this was supposed to be a "real" world where the DCs had to make sense, the idea of just dynamically adjusting the DCs to match what's supposed to be a rising action within a session just made too much sense. Oh wow, that's really elegant. For something like 13th Age I might want to adjust the starting DC depending on the environment's tier or break from it for especially dramatic rolls, but I like the concept behind that a whole lot. Laphroaig posted:instead of just bashing 5E why don't we have a serious talk about fetuses as a material component, god this thread is just so anti for no reason No joke, I actually am curious about what 5e does well. I'd love to read a discussion about the system's successes--like, for example, I think a lot of people seem to agree the Advantage/Disadvantage mechanic is elegant and pretty solid. gradenko_2000 posted:The Next DMG does make mention of "Fail forwards"-type adjudication: I like this, too. It's a simple way to handle that "partial success" situation.
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Jan 20, 2015 21:50
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Maybe something like a set of easy/medium/hard DC for a given skill, and depending on which DC(s) you beat determines the degree of PBTA-like success. Scoring less than "easy" would be like a 6-, > easy would be 7-9, > medium would be like 10+, and > hard would be like how some special moves have something awesome happen on 12+. Also, maybe a thing where being trained in a skill affects the thresholds for success. Like being trained in Stealth means any roll less than the easy threshold is treated as having met it (effectively, 6- on stealth is treated as 7-9). Harrow posted:for example, I think a lot of people seem to agree the Advantage/Disadvantage mechanic is elegant and pretty solid. Honestly not a huge fan of it, it's nice in the sense that it cuts down on tiny-bonus-bloat but roll twice and take better or worse is such a huge bonus/penalty to hit.
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Jan 20, 2015 21:58
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ascendance posted:a living, breathing world, that's been created and determined by someone else. You may consider it badwrongfun ascendance posted:You say vague, I say open-ended. Good to know you're not being sincere.
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Jan 20, 2015 23:17
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Not sure if it was mentioned here yet, but the Adventurers Handbook is cancelled. Or "never actually announced"per Mearls. http://dnd.wizards.com/elemental-evil Characters in the D&D tabletop roleplaying game can help prevent devastation to the lands and people of the Forgotten Realms in the Princes of the Apocalypse adventure by Wizards of the Coast and Sasquatch Game Studio. Princes of the Apocalypse is available on April 7, 2015 and includes an epic adventure for characters levels 1–15 as well as new elemental spells and the element-touched genasi as a new playable race. In addition, a free download will be available in mid-March that includes more new races plus the player content available in Princes of the Apocalypse, just in time for the start of the Elemental Evil season of the D&D Adventurers League. So it looks like the player content will be free instead.
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Jan 20, 2015 23:31
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ascendance posted:Look, a lot of people are just not into narrative control. I don't understand what you mean here. Everything on your character sheet provides a measure of narrative control. That's, like, the point of role-playing, is it not?
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Jan 20, 2015 23:38
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Contributing at the table is for babby gamists, real roleplaying means making the GM do all the work
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Jan 20, 2015 23:41
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ritorix posted:Not sure if it was mentioned here yet, but the Adventurers Handbook is cancelled. Or "never actually announced"per Mearls. That's good news. Is my memory wrong, or was the Adventurer's Handbook actually never on that page of books with prices and release dates? I could have sworn it was there when we were discussing it last. IT BEGINS posted:I don't understand what you mean here. Everything on your character sheet provides a measure of narrative control. That's, like, the point of role-playing, is it not? This boils down to the fact that it's very very bad when rear end in a top hat players ruin my Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Jan 20, 2015 |
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Jan 20, 2015 23:42
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AlphaDog posted:That's good news. Is my memory wrong, or was the Adventurer's Handbook actually never on that page of books with prices and release dates? I could have sworn it was there when we were discussing it last. To say it was never announced is a bit of sophistry, imo. Wonder what's changed... I can't believe the ship is sinking already.
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Jan 21, 2015 00:26
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Really Pants posted:Contributing at the table is for babby gamists, real roleplaying means making the GM do all the work Only The Caller may speak to the Dungeon Master!
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Jan 21, 2015 00:27
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dwarf74 posted:It was in a distributor catalog, complete with ad copy, cover art, price, and what seems to be an isbn number. Along with articles, iirc, about the support strategy of adventure + player guide. Sinking... or 5.5 incoming and clearing the deck a bit?  Everything 3.X is new again!
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Jan 21, 2015 00:35
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IT BEGINS posted:I don't understand what you mean here. Everything on your character sheet provides a measure of narrative control. That's, like, the point of role-playing, is it not? There are players out there that don't want to be on equal footing to the DM. They don't want to roll a natural 20 on their Strength check and then declare "I pick up the tree and chuck it at the orcs." They want to say what they attempt, roll the dice, and let the DM adjudicate for them. This may seem totally foreign for people here who have been playing Dungeon World or Fate or whatever for years, but it's a playstyle that has been around for a long time and is equally valid and fun.
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Jan 21, 2015 00:40
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Moinkmaster posted:Sinking... or 5.5 incoming and clearing the deck a bit? Here's what's happened: This is D&D 5th edition that we're looking at now. D&D Next will be released later this year, and will contain all the changes and updates to the last playtest packet that would have made it a flawless game, as well as various well-thought-out modular rules systems. Mike Mearls will write a blog entry to the effect of "We made it very clear that D&D 5th Edition and D&D Next were two different products" and state that "they're intercompatible if you've got a good DM". Ederick posted:There are players out there that don't want to be on equal footing to the DM. They don't want to roll a natural 20 on their Strength check and then declare "I pick up the tree and chuck it at the orcs." They want to say what they attempt, roll the dice, and let the DM adjudicate for them. This may seem totally foreign for people here who have been playing Dungeon World or Fate or whatever for years, but it's a playstyle that has been around for a long time and is equally valid and fun. This is how it used to work: "I want to lift the gate" "Roll your bend bars / lift gates" "My strength is 18/57... so I have a 25% chance... <rolls d100> 06! Yes!" "You lift the gate". Or alternatively, "I want to lift the gate" "Make a STR check at -5, it's heavy as hell" "My STR is 15, -5 makes it 10 <rolls 1d20> 3!" "You lift the gate". Which doesn't put the player on an equal footing with the DM at all. This isn't some modern narrativist DM-power-taking design philosophy, this is AD&D/OD&D. You can do thing if you roll number, so if you roll number, you do thing. The DM might tell you that a thing is impossible, but isn't supposed to call for a roll and then cockblock you regardless of the result. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Jan 21, 2015 |
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Jan 21, 2015 00:43
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quote:* A character manages to get her sword past a hobgoblin's defenses and turn a near miss into a hit, but the hobgoblin twists its shield and disarms her. Some of these seem worse than just failing. Notably being disarmed and the monster starts screaming. Like "if your player gets really close to success and you want to soften the blow, steel your resolve and kick them square in the dick instead."
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Jan 21, 2015 00:44
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Ederick posted:There are players out there that don't want to be on equal footing to the DM. They don't want to roll a natural 20 on their Strength check and then declare "I pick up the tree and chuck it at the orcs." They want to say what they attempt, roll the dice, and let the DM adjudicate for them. This may seem totally foreign for people here who have been playing Dungeon World or Fate or whatever for years, but it's a playstyle that has been around for a long time and is equally valid and fun. A lot of DMs like to say this. Zero players have ever said it.
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Jan 21, 2015 00:45
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Really Pants posted:A lot of DMs like to say this. This is primarily true because players that try to express this sentiment normally just express a yard-long streamer of drool instead.
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Jan 21, 2015 00:48
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Really Pants posted:A lot of DMs like to say this. Nah, I'll buy there are players who like that dynamic, it's just that then you've got someone like Kitchner who's rolling really well but the GM's adjudication is "no, you still fail" and so now Kitchner is unsure what the hell he's doing wrong or what he's supposed to be doing. Ascendance is quick to just brush this off as "oh well that guy's a lovely GM" as though that answers that, but no, it's just as reasonable to assume that Kitchner's GM isn't some stereotypical rear end in a top hat GM twirling a waxed mustache while shooting down high roll after high roll. Chances are that Kitchner's GM thinks he's being entirely reasonable and fair and the problem is that Kitchner isn't playing smart enough or taking the appropriate steps or something. Either way the end result of this is that Kitchner is confused and not having a good time, but just going "nah bro your GM is a douche, you should just hit him" doesn't address anything and may not even be true in the first place. Also with a few people talking about Natural 20s on skill rolls, remind me, does rolling a Natural 20 on a skill check in Next do anything special? I know in 4E you couldn't actually "crit" on skill checks, only combat rolls, but a whole bunch of people seemed to think that a natural 1/natural 20 meant you automatically failed/succeeded.
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Jan 21, 2015 00:54
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Kai Tave posted:Also with a few people talking about Natural 20s on skill rolls, remind me, does rolling a Natural 20 on a skill check in Next do anything special? I know in 4E you couldn't actually "crit" on skill checks, only combat rolls, but a whole bunch of people seemed to think that a natural 1/natural 20 meant you automatically failed/succeeded. 1's & 20's only affect attack rolls afaik RAW (20 is autohit/crit, 1 is miss) in 5e/Next. Same as 4e.
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Jan 21, 2015 01:00
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Kai Tave posted:Also with a few people talking about Natural 20s on skill rolls, remind me, does rolling a Natural 20 on a skill check in Next do anything special? I know in 4E you couldn't actually "crit" on skill checks, only combat rolls, but a whole bunch of people seemed to think that a natural 1/natural 20 meant you automatically failed/succeeded. It's just one of those things. Like how all dwarves are Scottish. Got into people's DNA somehow.
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Jan 21, 2015 01:01
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theironjef posted:It's just one of those things. Like how all dwarves are Scottish. Got into people's DNA somehow. Probably Rolemaster's fault.
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Jan 21, 2015 01:05
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Yeah, skills don't autosucceed on 20. That said, if the player who's most highly trained in <thing> can't even succeed if they roll 20, then nobody should be calling for a roll, they should be saying "that's obviously impossible". Sticking with my previous post's example, the DM could say "the gate is dwarf-forged black steel and basalt, it weighs 500 tons. You can't lift it". No problem there. Calling for the roll and then saying "nope" regardless is dumb as poo poo. It would be possible to address this in the rulebook without losing any of the D&D-ness. e: The problem with approaching the problem like this is that it makes somewhat-unsubtle railroading suddenly really obvious. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 01:14 on Jan 21, 2015 |
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Jan 21, 2015 01:08
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All right, thanks for the answer. This lends further credence to my theory that Kitchner's GM may just be some dude and not a rule-flouting uber rear end in a top hat GM. Kitchner can roll a nat 20 on his Disguise roll or whatever it is in Next but that's not an auto-pass, maybe the GM here just ruled that it wasn't enough to work or something and that's totally his prerogative and Mike Mearls 100% agrees with that and holds it up as a virtue. We can look at this and go "hold on man, something's wrong here" but Kitchner's GM doesn't have to be setting out to be a jerk to arrive at the conclusions he has, and if the game doesn't do anything to suggest that's maybe not the best way to handle that situation than how exactly is he supposed to suddenly conclude "oh hey, maybe I'm doing this all wrong?"
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Jan 21, 2015 01:09
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theironjef posted:Some of these seem worse than just failing. Notably being disarmed and the monster starts screaming. Like "if your player gets really close to success and you want to soften the blow, steel your resolve and kick them square in the dick instead." Yeah I don't think these guys actually know how "fail forward" is supposed to be used.
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Jan 21, 2015 01:13
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dwarf74 posted:It was in a distributor catalog, complete with ad copy, cover art, price, and what seems to be an isbn number. Along with articles, iirc, about the support strategy of adventure + player guide. Got a link to the catalogue/ISBN?
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Jan 21, 2015 01:15
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Let's look at the first announcement for the Adventurer's Handbook (swiped from ENWorld): quote:Not inherently evil, elemental power can be mastered by those with both malevolent and benign intentions. The Elemental Evil Adventurer’s Handbook provides everything that players need to build a character that is tied directly into the Elemental Evil story arc, with skills, abilities, and spells meant to augment their play experience throughout the campaign. Additionally, valuable background and story information provides greater depth and immersion. Now let's check this out: ritorix posted:Characters in the D&D tabletop roleplaying game can help prevent devastation to the lands and people of the Forgotten Realms in the Princes of the Apocalypse adventure by Wizards of the Coast and Sasquatch Game Studio. Princes of the Apocalypse is available on April 7, 2015 and includes an epic adventure for characters levels 1–15 as well as new elemental spells and the element-touched genasi as a new playable race. In addition, a free download will be available in mid-March that includes more new races plus the player content available in Princes of the Apocalypse, just in time for the start of the Elemental Evil season of the D&D Adventurers League. So "skills, abilities, and spells ... expanded backgrounds, class builds, and races" has somehow turned into This is my shocked face. Look at how shocked it is. Edit: Missed that the download also mentions more new races. Selachian fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Jan 21, 2015 |
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Jan 21, 2015 01:17
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Selachian posted:This is my shocked face. Look at how shocked it is. If you click on the post below (which contains the same marketing blurb you quoted), you'll be on the page of this thread where we were discussing the original announcement. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 01:31 on Jan 21, 2015 |
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Jan 21, 2015 01:26
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The problem is that it's always bullshit to let a player roll and hope he gets low so it's not the DM's fault you have to follow the script, the dice just didn't work out.
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Jan 21, 2015 01:33
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Selachian posted:Let's look at the first announcement for the Adventurer's Handbook (swiped from ENWorld): Genasi are the pinnacle of lazy design. 4 elemental races, plus a shitload of two-element paraelemental races that nobody uses because their only characterization is 'I like Ice'.
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Jan 21, 2015 01:43
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Mearls is like Link, he keeps turning back the clock to keep the moon at bay. As long as they don't cancel the tactical combat and freeform storytelling modules, I think 5e will turn out OK. Babylon Astronaut fucked around with this message at 02:02 on Jan 21, 2015 |
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Jan 21, 2015 01:59
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Selachian posted:This is my shocked face. Look at how shocked it is. Mike Mearls @mikemearls 7h7 hours ago @YetiMoose We can't cancel a book we never announced! Morrus @Morrus 7h7 hours ago (Morrus is the ENWorld guy) @mikemearls @YetiMoose Interesting. You guys made ad copy and designed a cover for it, though? Mike Mearls @mikemearls · 7h 7 hours ago @Morrus @YetiMoose we do a lot of stuff that may or may not end up as a released product. Mike Mearls @mikemearls · 7h 7 hours ago @Morrus @YetiMoose we've played things close to the vest is that it's a huge, open question on what support for the RPG should look like Mike Mearls @mikemearls @Morrus @YetiMoose it wasn't too many settings that hurt TSR, but too many D&D books of any kind. lots of experiments ahead... Mike Mearls @mikemearls 7h7 hours ago @Morrus @YetiMoose for instance, we now know that the high volume release schedule for 3e and 4e turned out to be bad for D&D Mike Mearls @mikemearls @Sam_Urfer too much stuff overwhelms new players, makes game harder to handle - compare D&D to games like Settlers, Ticket to Ride, etc. Mundangerous @Mundangerous 5h5 hours ago @mikemearls Writing an article on Elemental Evil. Is free PDF player content w/ each module the new model for #DnD5e, or unique to EE cmpgn? Mike Mearls @mikemearls @Mundangerous it's evolving - there's no model, yet Mike Mearls @mikemearls 4h4 hours ago @Morrus @YetiMoose Yeah, we could say anything and the buzz somewhere will be that we're failing. Meanwhile, PHB still in Amazon top 100. Max Ximenez @maxximenez 4h4 hours ago @mikemearls A while back you said warforged and kender would be included in unearthed arcana. Does the free elemental adv. PDF affect that? Mike Mearls @mikemearls @maxximenez nope
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Jan 21, 2015 02:00
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neonchameleon posted:Got a link to the catalogue/ISBN? 
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Jan 21, 2015 02:05
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Every time I think it couldn't be more obvious that D&D is WotC's and by extension Hasbro's black sheep, it gets more obvious.
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Jan 21, 2015 02:08
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Harrow posted:Oh wow, that's really elegant. For something like 13th Age I might want to adjust the starting DC depending on the environment's tier or break from it for especially dramatic rolls, but I like the concept behind that a whole lot. Yeah, you're still supposed to have exceptions to it like still setting down that a check is particularly hard or particularly easy, or that checks in combat should probably not be set to hard because of the out-of-combat successes, but otherwise it's a self-regulating system. moths posted:The problem is that it's always bullshit to let a player roll and hope he gets low so it's not the DM's fault you have to follow the script, the dice just didn't work out. Agreed. A lot of these BS skill check stories have their roots in a roll being inappropriate in the first place. Knowing when a roll should be done or not tends to be more important than the DC.
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Jan 21, 2015 02:16
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Commissioned cover art and marketing work-ups are free, right?
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Jan 21, 2015 02:18
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goatface posted:Commissioned cover art and marketing work-ups are free, right? They are still using the Cover Art for something. http://dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop-games/board-games/temple-elemental-evil ritorix posted:Mike Mearls @mikemearls 7h7 hours ago It is canceled for all intents and purposes. But they are right WoTC technically never did announce the product that was a 3rd party. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 02:32 on Jan 21, 2015 |
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Jan 21, 2015 02:28
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MonsterEnvy posted:They are still using the Cover Art for something. Well now I'm actually excited about this board game.
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Jan 21, 2015 02:30
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MonsterEnvy posted:They are still using the Cover Art for something. quote:The contents can also be combined with other D&D Adventure System Cooperative play board games, including The Legend of Drizzt and Castle Ravenloft. That's interesting. Aren't the earlier ones 4e-ish?
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Jan 21, 2015 02:33
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gradenko_2000 posted:That's interesting. Aren't the earlier ones 4e-ish? Extremely so. Which is kind of what makes me excited about it. They even have completely different art styles on the boxes.
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Jan 21, 2015 02:35
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S.J. posted:Well now I'm actually excited about this board game. I never played the Board games it's compatible with how good are they? S.J. posted:Extremely so. Which is kind of what makes me excited about it. They even have completely different art styles on the boxes. This would be due to the change of logo's and everything I guess. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 02:37 on Jan 21, 2015 |
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Jan 21, 2015 02:35
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MonsterEnvy posted:I never played the Board games it's compatible with how good are they. They're pretty legit. You can mix and match the stuff from the various versions of it, the minis are the same quality you'd get from the other D&D minis, there are lots of them, and lots of tiles you can use for the RPG even if you don't intend to play the board game. They're a dungeon crawl game like Descent, but it's purely cooperative, no one needs to control the monsters.
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Jan 21, 2015 02:36
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